SSRIs

Question:

Can anyone tell me about lithium augmentation with SSRIs or SNRIs or whatever?  I’m taking 225mg Effexor XR and my doctor has suggested using lithium augmentation to help with some of the more resistant symptoms.  I’ve tried a whole bunch of other stuff (mostly SSRIs), but I’m a little worried about trying lithium because of it’s reputation as a "hard" drug. Please let me know about any of the positive/negative aspects of lithium, as well as side effects, etc. Anything at all would be appreciated. Elsa

Response:

> Can anyone tell me about lithium augmentation with SSRIs or SNRIs or > whatever?  I’m taking 225mg Effexor XR and my doctor has suggested > using lithium augmentation to help with some of the more resistant > symptoms.  I’ve tried a whole bunch of other stuff (mostly SSRIs), but > I’m a little worried about trying lithium because of it’s reputation > as a "hard" drug. Please let me know about any of the > positive/negative aspects of lithium, as well as side effects, etc. > Anything at all would be appreciated. > Elsa

Hi Elsa, I know that lithium is used as an adjunct drug with other meds, though off hand, I cannot tell you which; and it’s important to know that there is not bad interaction and to know the dose, etc.  Please excuse me for this rough reply; I am presently going through a drug experience myself, but I am attaching a site you may find useful with many links on lithium info. As for lithium being a "hard drug" – I am not sure what you mean by this.  It is the gold standard for bipolar depression. take care Squiggles http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Lithium/

Response:

Welcome to the ng, Here is some info: > Can anyone tell me about lithium augmentation with SSRIs or SNRIs or > whatever?  I’m taking 225mg Effexor XR and my doctor has suggested > using lithium augmentation to help with some of the more resistant > symptoms.  I’ve tried a whole bunch of other stuff (mostly SSRIs), but > I’m a little worried about trying lithium because of it’s reputation > as a "hard" drug. Please let me know about any of the > positive/negative aspects of lithium, as well as side effects, etc. > Anything at all would be appreciated.

http://www.biopsychiatry.com/lithaug.htm Lithium augmentation in treatment-resistant depression: meta-analysis of placebo-controlled studies by Bauer M, Dopfmer S Department of Psychiatry, Klinikum Benjamin Franklin, Freie Unversitat Berlin, Germany. J Clin Psychopharmacol 1999 Oct; 19(5):427-34 ABSTRACT The addition of lithium to the treatment regimens of previously nonresponding depressed patients has been repeatedly investigated in controlled studies. The authors undertook this meta-analysis to investigate the efficacy of lithium augmentation of conventional antidepressants. An attempt was made to identify all placebo-controlled trials of lithium augmentation in refractory depression. Only double-blind studies that involved participants who had been treated with lithium or placebo addition after not responding to conventional antidepressants were to be included in the meta-analysis. Further inclusion criteria were the use of accepted diagnostic criteria for depression and the use of response criteria based on the acceptable measurement of depression as an outcome variable. Studies were located by a search of the MEDLINE database, a search in the Cochrane Library, and an intensive search by hand of reviews on lithium augmentation. Nine of 11 placebo-controlled, double-blind studies were included in this meta-analysis. Aggregating three studies with a total of 110 patients that used a minimum lithium dose of 800 mg/day, or a dose sufficient to reach lithium serum levels of > or = 0.5 mEq/L, and a minimum treatment duration of 2 weeks, the authors found that the pooled odds ratio of response during lithium augmentation compared with the response during placebo treatment was 3.31 (95% confidence interval, 1.46-7.53). The corresponding relative response rate was 2.14 (95% confidence interval, 1.23-3.70), the absolute improvement in response rate was 27% (95% confidence interval, 9.8%-44.2%), and the number of patients needed to be treated to obtain one more responder was 3.7. Inclusion of six more studies that fulfilled inclusion criteria but which treated subjects with additional lithium for less than 2 weeks or with a lower lithium dose (total, 234 patients) resulted in even higher estimates. Lithium augmentation seems to be the treatment strategy in refractory depression that has been investigated most frequently in placebo-controlled, double-blind studies. The authors conclude from this meta-analysis that with respect to efficacy, lithium augmentation is the first-choice treatment procedure for depressed patients who fail to respond to http://bipolar.about.com/library/weekly/mpreviss.htm Go to site and select from the following: 04/02/01 – Lithium: The First Mood Stabilizer Part 4: Whoa, Fat! We conclude our look at Lithium be examining the possible reasons why so many people gain weight – sometimes a LOT of weight – while taking it. 03/26/01 – Lithium: The First Mood Stabilizer Part 3: Major Precautions and Warnings Important facts about this medication, including salt intake, pre-existing conditions, interactions with other medications and other issues.. 03/19/01 – Lithium: The First Mood Stabilizer Part 2: Tests and Toxicity Tests have to be run before starting lithium therapy to make sure it is safe and appropriate for the patient. More tests have to be done throughout the course of therapy to make sure blood levels are within the safe and effective range, because lithium overdose can be very dangerous. 03/12/01 – Lithium: The First Mood Stabilizer Part 1: History, and a Mystery Solved It took nearly 50 years for scientists to start figuring out how lithium works. In Part 1 of a four-part series, we look at the history of lithium and the ground-breaking research that unlocked its mysteries. antidepressant monotherapy.

Response:

<snip> I’ve used lithium as an augmenting agent, and I must say that I really liked it. It did help my anti-depressant, and it very nicely leveled out the worst of my rapid mood swings from depressed but coping to desperately self-destructive. Did have a couple drawbacks though. I had a persistent hand tremor, usually annoying but tolerable though sometimes bad enough to make handwriting difficult and handling coins a disaster. Ultimately, I had to go off lithium because it was reducing my thyroid function too much. A couple months of thyroid supplements took care of that problem. Bright blessings. Fiona — If we had no winter, the spring would not be so pleasant: if we did not sometimes taste the adversity, prosperity would not be so welcome.      – Anne Bradstreet, Meditations Divine and Moral, 1664

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Question:

I have been on Celexa now since November 15, 2001, and started at 10 mg and slowly increased my dose.  I am now up to 40 mg, which I take at bedtime.  Even though the Celexa is supposed to help with depression, I have noticed that I have been crying more since I have been on the Celexa.  I thought that for a while the Celexa was working, however, I am beginning to think it isn’t working since I have experienced a lot more crying lately. Has anyone had any similar experiences while taking Celexa? Thanks. Joey

Response:

> Has anyone had any similar experiences while taking Celexa?

Yes, I had a similar experience to yours.  Celexa seemed to help me for a short while (couple of months or so) and then it seemed not to have any effect (positive or negative) after that.  I started out on 40mg a day and was on 60mg a day when my pdoc switched me to Paxil and Seroquel.  I weigh in at about 275 right now to give you somewhat of an idea of why my doses were what they were.

Response:

I have had the same experience with all SSRIs. I cry constantly, hallucinate, feel paranoid and totally detached from my body. I tried to take Elavil again and had the same problem, so after 10 years of trying meds, I give up. There has to be another way for those of us who can’t tolerate meds.

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> I have been on Celexa now since November 15, 2001, and started at 10 > mg and slowly increased my dose.  I am now up to 40 mg, which I take > at bedtime.  Even though the Celexa is supposed to help with > depression, I have noticed that I have been crying more since I have > been on the Celexa.  I thought that for a while the Celexa was > working, however, I am beginning to think it isn’t working since I > have experienced a lot more crying lately. > Has anyone had any similar experiences while taking Celexa? > Thanks. > Joey

Response:

> I have been on Celexa now since November 15, 2001, and started at 10 > mg and slowly increased my dose.  I am now up to 40 mg, which I take > at bedtime.  Even though the Celexa is supposed to help with > depression, I have noticed that I have been crying more since I have > been on the Celexa.  I thought that for a while the Celexa was > working, however, I am beginning to think it isn’t working since I > have experienced a lot more crying lately. > Has anyone had any similar experiences while taking Celexa? > Thanks. > Joey

crying isn’t necessarily a good indicator of depression. when i’m deeply depressed, i don’t cry; i’m much too numb. for me, at least, crying is often a sign of recovery. -lisa

Response:

It just made me numb most of the time. I did cry occasionally just becuase it didn’t matter if I cried or not. I’m just trying to get on without which is proberbly a bad idea but I prefer to feel depressed than not to feel …Groundhog

Response:

I have been on celexa now for four weeks now and have some questions for those in this newsgroup who also take Celexa.  My doctor started me out on 10 mg and then slowly increased me to 20 mg.  When I first started on it, I started taking it in the morning like my doctor suggested, although she said that if it causes too much drowsiness, take it before bedtime.  Actually, I had to switch from taking it in the morning to taking it at bedtime not because of drowsiness, but because of some of the other minor, inconvenient side effects, which have sense gone away.  Anyway, now that my body is used to the 20 mg, would I benefit from taking the Celexa earlier on in the day as compared to taking it at bedtime.  In other words, would I benefit more from taking it in the morning rather than at bedtime. Also, my doctor is having me increase my dose slowly from 20 mg to 40 mg and I was wanting to know if there are any others in this group who are on that dose and how you are doing? Thanks, Joey

Response:

I’m taking Celexa 20mg since one month.  I fell better with this med than Paxil and Effexor. I take my med morning.  I have no inconvenient with this. Aline – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – >I have been on celexa now for four weeks now and have some questions >for those in this newsgroup who also take Celexa.  My doctor started >me out on 10 mg and then slowly increased me to 20 mg.  When I first >started on it, I started taking it in the morning like my doctor >suggested, although she said that if it causes too much drowsiness, >take it before bedtime.  Actually, I had to switch from taking it in >the morning to taking it at bedtime not because of drowsiness, but >because of some of the other minor, inconvenient side effects, which >have sense gone away.  Anyway, now that my body is used to the 20 mg, >would I benefit from taking the Celexa earlier on in the day as >compared to taking it at bedtime.  In other words, would I benefit >more from taking it in the morning rather than at bedtime. >Also, my doctor is having me increase my dose slowly from 20 mg to 40 >mg and I was wanting to know if there are any others in this group who >are on that dose and how you are doing? >Thanks, >Joey

Response:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – > I have been on celexa now for four weeks now and have some questions > for those in this newsgroup who also take Celexa.  My doctor started > me out on 10 mg and then slowly increased me to 20 mg.  When I first > started on it, I started taking it in the morning like my doctor > suggested, although she said that if it causes too much drowsiness, > take it before bedtime.  Actually, I had to switch from taking it in > the morning to taking it at bedtime not because of drowsiness, but > because of some of the other minor, inconvenient side effects, which > have sense gone away.  Anyway, now that my body is used to the 20 mg, > would I benefit from taking the Celexa earlier on in the day as > compared to taking it at bedtime.  In other words, would I benefit > more from taking it in the morning rather than at bedtime. > Also, my doctor is having me increase my dose slowly from 20 mg to 40 > mg and I was wanting to know if there are any others in this group who > are on that dose and how you are doing?

I’m up to 60 mg, going 10 mg at a time.  At 20 mg, I didn’t notice anything.  At 40mg, I noticed a little less depression but no help for my anxiety.  The doctor thought that 40 helping with the depression was good news to we went to 60 to see if it would help the anxiety. So far, the only negative side effect I’ve experienced is dry mouth. — David Chamberlain http://www.dslnorthwest.net/~dchamberlain — Love is what’s in the room with you at Christmas if you stop opening presents and listen. — A 9/11 Tribute — http://www.politicsandprotest.org/

Response:

my doc had me all the way up to 80,  and i have read after 40 there really isnt much more it can do but i could be wrong, but i had no side effects or relief at that matter. brian s. — Get 5 bucks free for signing up with the internets #1 e-payment service. https://www.paypal.com/refer/pal=8YXF6QPBZH46C Check out my tape trading list below. .shtml

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> I have been on celexa now for four weeks now and have some questions > for those in this newsgroup who also take Celexa.  My doctor started > me out on 10 mg and then slowly increased me to 20 mg.  When I first > started on it, I started taking it in the morning like my doctor > suggested, although she said that if it causes too much drowsiness, > take it before bedtime.  Actually, I had to switch from taking it in > the morning to taking it at bedtime not because of drowsiness, but > because of some of the other minor, inconvenient side effects, which > have sense gone away.  Anyway, now that my body is used to the 20 mg, > would I benefit from taking the Celexa earlier on in the day as > compared to taking it at bedtime.  In other words, would I benefit > more from taking it in the morning rather than at bedtime. > Also, my doctor is having me increase my dose slowly from 20 mg to 40 > mg and I was wanting to know if there are any others in this group who > are on that dose and how you are doing? > I’m up to 60 mg, going 10 mg at a time.  At 20 mg, I didn’t notice > anything.  At 40mg, I noticed a little less depression but no help for > my anxiety.  The doctor thought that 40 helping with the depression was > good news to we went to 60 to see if it would help the anxiety. > So far, the only negative side effect I’ve experienced is dry mouth. > — > David Chamberlain > http://www.dslnorthwest.net/~dchamberlain > — > Love is what’s in the room with you at Christmas if you stop opening > presents and listen. > — > A 9/11 Tribute — http://www.politicsandprotest.org/

Response:

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – >I have been on celexa now for four weeks now and have some questions >for those in this newsgroup who also take Celexa.  My doctor started >me out on 10 mg and then slowly increased me to 20 mg.  When I first >started on it, I started taking it in the morning like my doctor >suggested, although she said that if it causes too much drowsiness, >take it before bedtime.  Actually, I had to switch from taking it in >the morning to taking it at bedtime not because of drowsiness, but >because of some of the other minor, inconvenient side effects, which >have sense gone away.  Anyway, now that my body is used to the 20 mg, >would I benefit from taking the Celexa earlier on in the day as >compared to taking it at bedtime.  In other words, would I benefit >more from taking it in the morning rather than at bedtime. >Also, my doctor is having me increase my dose slowly from 20 mg to 40 >mg and I was wanting to know if there are any others in this group who >are on that dose and how you are doing? >Thanks, >Joey

Joey, I also just started on Celexa. I was using Effexor. The effexor was not working as well any longer and I wanted a change. My pdoc changed me to the Celexa. I’ve been taking it about 3 weeks now. I was very depressed 3 weeks ago. In fact attempted suicide. I didn’t think I’d ever feel better up until about 2 days ago. The medication is starting to kick in and I’m feeling much better. I’m on 30 mg and am grateful that I feel better. There have been many times in my life that I have questioned the "do I want to be on meds?" question. My answer is simple but complex. I want to be able to be "normal" but you know for me that’s not going to happen. It is a sadnes that I grieve over but have come to accept to some degree. I think that this is your question. Am I right? Well, I needed to determine the kind of like I wanted to live and with my depression/panic disorder/ptsd well I don’t function well without medications. So, I decided that rather than feel totally destroyed I take the medications, go to therapy and do the best I can. Your experience may or may not be the same. You have to decide what is right for you. mouse

Response:

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – >I’m up to 60 mg, going 10 mg at a time.  At 20 mg, I didn’t notice >anything.  At 40mg, I noticed a little less depression but no help for >my anxiety.  The doctor thought that 40 helping with the depression was >good news to we went to 60 to see if it would help the anxiety. >So far, the only negative side effect I’ve experienced is dry mouth. >– >David Chamberlain >http://www.dslnorthwest.net/~dchamberlain >– >Love is what’s in the room with you at Christmas if you stop opening >presents and listen. >– >A 9/11 Tribute — http://www.politicsandprotest.org/

One of my problems is distinguishing between the depression and the anxiety.  Also, when you have been depressed for so long, it is sometimes hard to know what normal is when you have gotten used to the depression.  A good way of explaining this, especially in my case, is that prior to being treated for depression, I had five brain surgeries due to hydrocephalus and an arachnoid cyst on my optic nerve.  The symptoms that I was experiencing as a result of these problems included siezures, headaches, and short-term memory loss with the headaches getting worse.  Well, at different times, I recall going to the doctor and telling him that I had no headaches and was doing fine. However, after the appointment I would tell my parents (This all got diagnosed when I was 17), that I had a headache and didn’t know why I told the doctor otherwise.  What was happening in my case was that as the headaches got worse, my tolerance level for pain got higher and higher, so what used to be a painful headache wasn’t as painful.  I think the same thing has happened with the depression and the anxiety. With the headaches, my doctor had me keep a headache journal to track when I had headaches and how long.  I have been keeping a journal since I have started counseling and started on medication, but I am still struggling with the anxiety and worry. Joey

Response:

Once you body is at a "steady state" with it it won’t make a lot of difference when you take the stuff. I’ll tell you what your shrink probably will: experiment a little and take it when it works best for you. I’ve found Celexa an effective medication but it is slower to work and doesn’t provide the same jolt as an increase in Zolft does, for instance. teh flip side is that Celexa doesn’t dampen my sex drive the way an equivalent dose of Zoloft did. It’s also slower to loose it’s effectiveness and require a dose adjustment. JCS

Response:

Once you body is at a "steady state" with it it won’t make a lot of difference when you take the stuff. I’ll tell you what your shrink probably will: experiment a little and take it when it works best for you. I’ve found Celexa an effective medication but it is slower to work and doesn’t provide the same jolt as an increase in Zolft does, for instance. teh flip side is that Celexa doesn’t dampen my sex drive the way an equivalent dose of Zoloft did. It’s also slower to loose it’s effectiveness and require a dose adjustment. JCS Newsgroups: tnn.test,alt.support.depression X-No-Archive: yes Lines: 2 NNTP-Posting-Host: wonenara.ozemail.com.au Organization: OzEmail Ltd, Australia Distribution: world Path: news.sol.net!spool0-nwblwi.newsops.execpc.com!newsfeeds.sol.net!priapus.vis i.com!zeus.visi.com!news-out.visi.com!hermes.visi.com!news1.optus.net.au!op tus!yorrell.saard.net!duster.adelaide.on.net!newsfeed.ozemail.com.au!ozemai l.com.au!not-for-mail This message was cancelled from within Mozilla.

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– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – >I have been on celexa now for four weeks now and have some questions >for those in this newsgroup who also take Celexa.  My doctor started >me out on 10 mg and then slowly increased me to 20 mg.  When I first >started on it, I started taking it in the morning like my doctor >suggested, although she said that if it causes too much drowsiness, >take it before bedtime.  Actually, I had to switch from taking it in >the morning to taking it at bedtime not because of drowsiness, but >because of some of the other minor, inconvenient side effects, which >have sense gone away.  Anyway, now that my body is used to the 20 mg, >would I benefit from taking the Celexa earlier on in the day as >compared to taking it at bedtime.  In other words, would I benefit >more from taking it in the morning rather than at bedtime. >Also, my doctor is having me increase my dose slowly from 20 mg to 40 >mg and I was wanting to know if there are any others in this group who >are on that dose and how you are doing? >Thanks, >Joey

From what my doctor has told me I don’t think it really matters whether you take Celexa in the morning or evening, as long as you take it regularly at the same time. As to your second question, I went from 20mg/day to 40/day and I found that the higher dose was no more effective than the lower dose and the higher dose made me too drowsy; after two months on the higher dosage I reverted to 20mg/day and have been quite happy since – I’ve been on the Celexa for about two years now.  However, different individuals react differently to each drug so the only sure way to find out how it will be with you is to try it. Best wishes, Peter.

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– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text ->I have been on celexa now for four weeks now and have some questions >for those in this newsgroup who also take Celexa.  My doctor started >me out on 10 mg and then slowly increased me to 20 mg.  When I first >started on it, I started taking it in the morning like my doctor >suggested, although she said that if it causes too much drowsiness, >take it before bedtime.  Actually, I had to switch from taking it in >the morning to taking it at bedtime not because of drowsiness, but >because of some of the other minor, inconvenient side effects, which >have sense gone away.  Anyway, now that my body is used to the 20 mg, >would I benefit from taking the Celexa earlier on in the day as >compared to taking it at bedtime.  In other words, would I benefit >more from taking it in the morning rather than at bedtime. >Also, my doctor is having me increase my dose slowly from 20 mg to 40 >mg and I was wanting to know if there are any others in this group who >are on that dose and how you are doing? >Thanks, >Joey > From what my doctor has told me I don’t think it really matters > whether you take Celexa in the morning or evening, as long as you take > it regularly at the same time. > As to your second question, I went from 20mg/day to 40/day and I found > that the higher dose was no more effective than the lower dose and the > higher dose made me too drowsy; after two months on the higher dosage > I reverted to 20mg/day and have been quite happy since – I’ve been on > the Celexa for about two years now.  However, different individuals > react differently to each drug so the only sure way to find out how it > will be with you is to try it. > Best wishes, > Peter.

I was prescribed Celexa 8 weeks ago. It is making me feel better than I ever felt. I feel normal. I had been on Paxil for a year, felt worse. I’ve been on Zoloft, Serzone , Prozac, and none made me feel better till Celexor. I take it every night and feel no side effects and no drowsiness at all. I have recently lost my son. Nove 9th he died and I handled it pretty well even though I cry at times. I believe Celexor helped me through it. Peace Joanne

Response:

I have been on celexa now for four weeks now and have some questions for those in this newsgroup who also take Celexa.  My doctor started me out on 10 mg and then slowly increased me to 20 mg.  When I first started on it, I started taking it in the morning like my doctor suggested, although she said that if it causes too much drowsiness, take it before bedtime.  Actually, I had to switch from taking it in the morning to taking it at bedtime not because of drowsiness, but because of some of the other minor, inconvenient side effects, which have sense gone away.  Anyway, now that my body is used to the 20 mg, would I benefit from taking the Celexa earlier on in the day as compared to taking it at bedtime.  In other words, would I benefit more from taking it in the morning rather than at bedtime. Also, my doctor is having me increase my dose slowly from 20 mg to 40 mg and I was wanting to know if there are any others in this group who are on that dose and how you are doing? Thanks, Joey

Response:

I’m taking Celexa 20mg since one month.  I fell better with this med than Paxil and Effexor. I take my med morning.  I have no inconvenient with this. Aline – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – >I have been on celexa now for four weeks now and have some questions >for those in this newsgroup who also take Celexa.  My doctor started >me out on 10 mg and then slowly increased me to 20 mg.  When I first >started on it, I started taking it in the morning like my doctor >suggested, although she said that if it causes too much drowsiness, >take it before bedtime.  Actually, I had to switch from taking it in >the morning to taking it at bedtime not because of drowsiness, but >because of some of the other minor, inconvenient side effects, which >have sense gone away.  Anyway, now that my body is used to the 20 mg, >would I benefit from taking the Celexa earlier on in the day as >compared to taking it at bedtime.  In other words, would I benefit >more from taking it in the morning rather than at bedtime. >Also, my doctor is having me increase my dose slowly from 20 mg to 40 >mg and I was wanting to know if there are any others in this group who >are on that dose and how you are doing? >Thanks, >Joey

Response:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – > I have been on celexa now for four weeks now and have some questions > for those in this newsgroup who also take Celexa.  My doctor started > me out on 10 mg and then slowly increased me to 20 mg.  When I first > started on it, I started taking it in the morning like my doctor > suggested, although she said that if it causes too much drowsiness, > take it before bedtime.  Actually, I had to switch from taking it in > the morning to taking it at bedtime not because of drowsiness, but > because of some of the other minor, inconvenient side effects, which > have sense gone away.  Anyway, now that my body is used to the 20 mg, > would I benefit from taking the Celexa earlier on in the day as > compared to taking it at bedtime.  In other words, would I benefit > more from taking it in the morning rather than at bedtime. > Also, my doctor is having me increase my dose slowly from 20 mg to 40 > mg and I was wanting to know if there are any others in this group who > are on that dose and how you are doing?

I’m up to 60 mg, going 10 mg at a time.  At 20 mg, I didn’t notice anything.  At 40mg, I noticed a little less depression but no help for my anxiety.  The doctor thought that 40 helping with the depression was good news to we went to 60 to see if it would help the anxiety. So far, the only negative side effect I’ve experienced is dry mouth. — David Chamberlain http://www.dslnorthwest.net/~dchamberlain — Love is what’s in the room with you at Christmas if you stop opening presents and listen. — A 9/11 Tribute — http://www.politicsandprotest.org/

Response:

my doc had me all the way up to 80,  and i have read after 40 there really isnt much more it can do but i could be wrong, but i had no side effects or relief at that matter. brian s. — Get 5 bucks free for signing up with the internets #1 e-payment service. https://www.paypal.com/refer/pal=8YXF6QPBZH46C Check out my tape trading list below. .shtml

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> I have been on celexa now for four weeks now and have some questions > for those in this newsgroup who also take Celexa.  My doctor started > me out on 10 mg and then slowly increased me to 20 mg.  When I first > started on it, I started taking it in the morning like my doctor > suggested, although she said that if it causes too much drowsiness, > take it before bedtime.  Actually, I had to switch from taking it in > the morning to taking it at bedtime not because of drowsiness, but > because of some of the other minor, inconvenient side effects, which > have sense gone away.  Anyway, now that my body is used to the 20 mg, > would I benefit from taking the Celexa earlier on in the day as > compared to taking it at bedtime.  In other words, would I benefit > more from taking it in the morning rather than at bedtime. > Also, my doctor is having me increase my dose slowly from 20 mg to 40 > mg and I was wanting to know if there are any others in this group who > are on that dose and how you are doing? > I’m up to 60 mg, going 10 mg at a time.  At 20 mg, I didn’t notice > anything.  At 40mg, I noticed a little less depression but no help for > my anxiety.  The doctor thought that 40 helping with the depression was > good news to we went to 60 to see if it would help the anxiety. > So far, the only negative side effect I’ve experienced is dry mouth. > — > David Chamberlain > http://www.dslnorthwest.net/~dchamberlain > — > Love is what’s in the room with you at Christmas if you stop opening > presents and listen. > — > A 9/11 Tribute — http://www.politicsandprotest.org/

Response:

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – >I have been on celexa now for four weeks now and have some questions >for those in this newsgroup who also take Celexa.  My doctor started >me out on 10 mg and then slowly increased me to 20 mg.  When I first >started on it, I started taking it in the morning like my doctor >suggested, although she said that if it causes too much drowsiness, >take it before bedtime.  Actually, I had to switch from taking it in >the morning to taking it at bedtime not because of drowsiness, but >because of some of the other minor, inconvenient side effects, which >have sense gone away.  Anyway, now that my body is used to the 20 mg, >would I benefit from taking the Celexa earlier on in the day as >compared to taking it at bedtime.  In other words, would I benefit >more from taking it in the morning rather than at bedtime. >Also, my doctor is having me increase my dose slowly from 20 mg to 40 >mg and I was wanting to know if there are any others in this group who >are on that dose and how you are doing? >Thanks, >Joey

Joey, I also just started on Celexa. I was using Effexor. The effexor was not working as well any longer and I wanted a change. My pdoc changed me to the Celexa. I’ve been taking it about 3 weeks now. I was very depressed 3 weeks ago. In fact attempted suicide. I didn’t think I’d ever feel better up until about 2 days ago. The medication is starting to kick in and I’m feeling much better. I’m on 30 mg and am grateful that I feel better. There have been many times in my life that I have questioned the "do I want to be on meds?" question. My answer is simple but complex. I want to be able to be "normal" but you know for me that’s not going to happen. It is a sadnes that I grieve over but have come to accept to some degree. I think that this is your question. Am I right? Well, I needed to determine the kind of like I wanted to live and with my depression/panic disorder/ptsd well I don’t function well without medications. So, I decided that rather than feel totally destroyed I take the medications, go to therapy and do the best I can. Your experience may or may not be the same. You have to decide what is right for you. mouse

Response:

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – >I’m up to 60 mg, going 10 mg at a time.  At 20 mg, I didn’t notice >anything.  At 40mg, I noticed a little less depression but no help for >my anxiety.  The doctor thought that 40 helping with the depression was >good news to we went to 60 to see if it would help the anxiety. >So far, the only negative side effect I’ve experienced is dry mouth. >– >David Chamberlain >http://www.dslnorthwest.net/~dchamberlain >– >Love is what’s in the room with you at Christmas if you stop opening >presents and listen. >– >A 9/11 Tribute — http://www.politicsandprotest.org/

One of my problems is distinguishing between the depression and the anxiety.  Also, when you have been depressed for so long, it is sometimes hard to know what normal is when you have gotten used to the depression.  A good way of explaining this, especially in my case, is that prior to being treated for depression, I had five brain surgeries due to hydrocephalus and an arachnoid cyst on my optic nerve.  The symptoms that I was experiencing as a result of these problems included siezures, headaches, and short-term memory loss with the headaches getting worse.  Well, at different times, I recall going to the doctor and telling him that I had no headaches and was doing fine. However, after the appointment I would tell my parents (This all got diagnosed when I was 17), that I had a headache and didn’t know why I told the doctor otherwise.  What was happening in my case was that as the headaches got worse, my tolerance level for pain got higher and higher, so what used to be a painful headache wasn’t as painful.  I think the same thing has happened with the depression and the anxiety. With the headaches, my doctor had me keep a headache journal to track when I had headaches and how long.  I have been keeping a journal since I have started counseling and started on medication, but I am still struggling with the anxiety and worry. Joey

Response:

i have been on Celexa for about a year. i take 20mg daily.  i take mine before bedtime because it makes me sleepy.  i haven’t had any undesirable side effects, however i have noticed that the longer i have been on it, i have had trouble with muscle aches.  does anyone else?

Response:

Once you body is at a "steady state" with it it won’t make a lot of difference when you take the stuff. I’ll tell you what your shrink probably will: experiment a little and take it when it works best for you. I’ve found Celexa an effective medication but it is slower to work and doesn’t provide the same jolt as an increase in Zolft does, for instance. teh flip side is that Celexa doesn’t dampen my sex drive the way an equivalent dose of Zoloft did. It’s also slower to loose it’s effectiveness and require a dose adjustment. JCS

Response:

Once you body is at a "steady state" with it it won’t make a lot of difference when you take the stuff. I’ll tell you what your shrink probably will: experiment a little and take it when it works best for you. I’ve found Celexa an effective medication but it is slower to work and doesn’t provide the same jolt as an increase in Zolft does, for instance. teh flip side is that Celexa doesn’t dampen my sex drive the way an equivalent dose of Zoloft did. It’s also slower to loose it’s effectiveness and require a dose adjustment. JCS Newsgroups: tnn.test,alt.support.depression X-No-Archive: yes Lines: 2 NNTP-Posting-Host: wonenara.ozemail.com.au Organization: OzEmail Ltd, Australia Distribution: world Path: news.sol.net!spool0-nwblwi.newsops.execpc.com!newsfeeds.sol.net!priapus.vis i.com!zeus.visi.com!news-out.visi.com!hermes.visi.com!news1.optus.net.au!op tus!yorrell.saard.net!duster.adelaide.on.net!newsfeed.ozemail.com.au!ozemai l.com.au!not-for-mail This message was cancelled from within Mozilla.

Response:

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – >I have been on celexa now for four weeks now and have some questions >for those in this newsgroup who also take Celexa.  My doctor started >me out on 10 mg and then slowly increased me to 20 mg.  When I first >started on it, I started taking it in the morning like my doctor >suggested, although she said that if it causes too much drowsiness, >take it before bedtime.  Actually, I had to switch from taking it in >the morning to taking it at bedtime not because of drowsiness, but >because of some of the other minor, inconvenient side effects, which >have sense gone away.  Anyway, now that my body is used to the 20 mg, >would I benefit from taking the Celexa earlier on in the day as >compared to taking it at bedtime.  In other words, would I benefit >more from taking it in the morning rather than at bedtime. >Also, my doctor is having me increase my dose slowly from 20 mg to 40 >mg and I was wanting to know if there are any others in this group who >are on that dose and how you are doing? >Thanks, >Joey

From what my doctor has told me I don’t think it really matters whether you take Celexa in the morning or evening, as long as you take it regularly at the same time. As to your second question, I went from 20mg/day to 40/day and I found that the higher dose was no more effective than the lower dose and the higher dose made me too drowsy; after two months on the higher dosage I reverted to 20mg/day and have been quite happy since – I’ve been on the Celexa for about two years now.  However, different individuals react differently to each drug so the only sure way to find out how it will be with you is to try it. Best wishes, Peter.

Response:

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text ->I have been on celexa now for four weeks now and have some questions >for those in this newsgroup who also take Celexa.  My doctor started >me out on 10 mg and then slowly increased me to 20 mg.  When I first >started on it, I started taking it in the morning like my doctor >suggested, although she said that if it causes too much drowsiness, >take it before bedtime.  Actually, I had to switch from taking it in >the morning to taking it at bedtime not because of drowsiness, but >because of some of the other minor, inconvenient side effects, which >have sense gone away.  Anyway, now that my body is used to the 20 mg, >would I benefit from taking the Celexa earlier on in the day as >compared to taking it at bedtime.  In other words, would I benefit >more from taking it in the morning rather than at bedtime. >Also, my doctor is having me increase my dose slowly from 20 mg to 40 >mg and I was wanting to know if there are any others in this group who >are on that dose and how you are doing? >Thanks, >Joey > From what my doctor has told me I don’t think it really matters > whether you take Celexa in the morning or evening, as long as you take > it regularly at the same time. > As to your second question, I went from 20mg/day to 40/day and I found > that the higher dose was no more effective than the lower dose and the > higher dose made me too drowsy; after two months on the higher dosage > I reverted to 20mg/day and have been quite happy since – I’ve been on > the Celexa for about two years now.  However, different individuals > react differently to each drug so the only sure way to find out how it > will be with you is to try it. > Best wishes, > Peter.

I was prescribed Celexa 8 weeks ago. It is making me feel better than I ever felt. I feel normal. I had been on Paxil for a year, felt worse. I’ve been on Zoloft, Serzone , Prozac, and none made me feel better till Celexor. I take it every night and feel no side effects and no drowsiness at all. I have recently lost my son. Nove 9th he died and I handled it pretty well even though I cry at times. I believe Celexor helped me through it. Peace Joanne

Response:

Question:

Having nothing to say, himself Eric has resorted to outright copying of other groups. If we wanted to read Dr. Bobs we would be there. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> I copied and pasted this off the Dr. Bob’s tips and tricks section. One of the > main theories as to why antidepressants "poop out" and stop working is because > of dopamine depletion. This can be remedied by adding a dopamine agonist like > Amantadine, Ritalin, Mirapex, bromocriptine, etc. > "Patients who lose response to antidepressants > —— > When encountering patients who do well for the first few weeks on an SSRI > (especially Prozac) but then seem to lose their response after a few weeks I > have to decide whether to increase or decrease the dose. If the patient, at > that point, seems to have *new* sedation or apathy I conclude the dose is too > high and decrease it. If not, I increase it. Most of the time I end up > increasing the dose. If the patient seems to require a dose of the SSRI which > produces sedation or apathy in order to have an antidepressant effect then I > consider changing the time of day of administration (usually doesn’t help) or > adding a stimulant. > I confess that I have not seen many patients whose depression does better on > lower SSRI doses, but I have seen a bunch who get fewer side effects that way. > —— > It has been hypothesized by Don Klein and others that what looks like decreased > antidepressant effectiveness is really a state of akinesia resulting from > depletion of dopamine with continuing use of the SSRIs. Based on this > understanding one can treat the apparent fall-off in SSRI effectiveness with DA > agonists such as bupropion, amantadine, methylphenidate, dextroamphetamine, > etc. I have done this on many occasions, often with excellent results. > —— > I have often observed that patients who respond well to low doses of an > antidepressant, and lose the effect after a month or so, may regain the > therapeutic effect if their dose is increased to more usual doses. > This may be a manifestation of an initial placebo response followed by a > pharmacological response, or possibly something related to the pharmacokinetics > or pharmacodynamics of the drug. > —— > It seemed to me that once virtually no one developed tolerance to the > antidepressant effects of SSRIs. That was when all we had available was > fluoxetine. Nowadays, I prescribe more of the short-acting SSRIs, and it is my > impression that more than 5% to 10% of my patients develop tolerance to their > meds after taking them from one to twelve months. My patients seem to improve > with an incremental increase in dose; however, one increase usually predicts > that they will later need a second increase as the same phenomenon occurs. When > we reach the upper limit of the recommended dosage range, I switch to an > alternate antidepressant, which often works — but not always. Sometimes such a > patient will creep up on their dose of the second SSRI and then return to the > first one, usually with renewed effectiveness at the initial starting dose. > This phemnomenon seems so common that I mention to patients that it can happen > and that if it does I want them to contact me. > The data is impressionistic, but it seems to me that I see much more of this > "dosage creep" (and don’t you hate that terminology!) than I used to see. > —— > I have had a very similar experience. This is now spoken about in many > psychopharm conferences as "poop out." In my experience it sometimes happens as > late as 3 years into an SSRI (typically Prozac, since it’s been around the > longest), in as many as 20% of patients. > What is to be done? There is talk among "poop out" veterans of adding > bromocriptine since there is speculation that this might be a dopaminergic > depletion phenomenon. People have said this helps, but I haven’t used it yet > myself. > —— > I have a lot of experience seeing people who have failed to respond to a series > of antidepressants and/or are failing to respond to a medication which used to > help. I have found that evaluating four factors will usually get things back on > track: > sleep problems > alcohol use > thyroid problems and > subsyndromal bipolar symptoms. > Alcohol use, even in small amounts, can disrupt sleep in sensitive individuals > and I usually recommend complete abstention from alcohol. > The most common problem I have found, however, is the presence of subtle, > subsyndromal bipolar symptoms, current or past, which may or may not meet > criteria for mania or hypomania. These patients do best with the addition of > lithium or another mood stabilizer. > —— > This wearing off phenonemon seems to be an all too frequent occurence with the > new antidepressants, in particular moclobemide. Rather than increasing the > dosage, a few of my colleagues down here paradoxically suggest a day or two to > a week without medication, with good results! Maybe it’s got something to do > with enzyme induction. Although others have suggested that this wearing off > merely reflects an initial placebo response, I don’t think it fully explains > this phenomenon. > —— > Lee Dante wrote, in part: > This phenomena of the SSRI "poop out" can usually be reversed by adding 25 mg > of naltrexone (marketed in the US as Revia), usually on top of supper to avoid > transient nausea. In anywhere from two weeks to five of once daily dosing the > SSRI regains the full effect and often is perceived as working better than it > did at first. I have done this in over forty cases where this has been most > gratifying. At this dose of naltrexone the incidence of side effects is very > low, and the improvement is sustained over a period of years. It has been the > end of poop out in my practice. > —— > That reminds me of a patient with opiate dependence in the post-detox phase. He > was receiving 20 mg of fluoxetine for a comorbid major depression and was > improving when naltrexone 50 mg/day was added. Within 4 days, he was hypomanic. > On discontinuation of fluoxetine (on the presumption of a SSRI-induced > hypomania), he returned to his previous baseline over a period of one week. At > that time, I did not think much of a possible interaction between fluoxetine & > naltrexone. Now, I begin to wonder! > —— > I’ve used Remeron (mirtazapine) fairly often for Paxil "poop-out". > Eric > "Oh you didnt get better cause you didnt work hard enough in talk therapy. Its > YOUR fault!." Quote from Typical talk therapy asshole after therapy fails to > relieve severe depression > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/MergePsychiatryIntoNeurology/

Response:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – > Having nothing to say, himself Eric has resorted to outright copying of > other groups. > If we wanted to read Dr. Bobs we would be there. > I copied and pasted this off the Dr. Bob’s tips and tricks section. One of the > main theories as to why antidepressants "poop out" and stop working is because > of dopamine depletion. This can be remedied by adding a dopamine agonist like > Amantadine, Ritalin, Mirapex, bromocriptine, etc. > "Patients who lose response to antidepressants > —— > When encountering patients who do well for the first few weeks on an SSRI > (especially Prozac) but then seem to lose their response after a few weeks I > have to decide whether to increase or decrease the dose. If the patient, at > that point, seems to have *new* sedation or apathy I conclude the dose is too > high and decrease it. If not, I increase it. Most of the time I end up > increasing the dose. If the patient seems to require a dose of the SSRI which > produces sedation or apathy in order to have an antidepressant effect then I > consider changing the time of day of administration (usually doesn’t help) or > adding a stimulant. > I confess that I have not seen many patients whose depression does better on > lower SSRI doses, but I have seen a bunch who get fewer side effects that way. > —— > It has been hypothesized by Don Klein and others that what looks like decreased > antidepressant effectiveness is really a state of akinesia resulting from > depletion of dopamine with continuing use of the SSRIs. Based on this > understanding one can treat the apparent fall-off in SSRI effectiveness with DA > agonists such as bupropion, amantadine, methylphenidate, dextroamphetamine, > etc. I have done this on many occasions, often with excellent results. > —— > I have often observed that patients who respond well to low doses of an > antidepressant, and lose the effect after a month or so, may regain the > therapeutic effect if their dose is increased to more usual doses. > This may be a manifestation of an initial placebo response followed by a > pharmacological response, or possibly something related to the pharmacokinetics > or pharmacodynamics of the drug. > —— > It seemed to me that once virtually no one developed tolerance to the > antidepressant effects of SSRIs. That was when all we had available was > fluoxetine. Nowadays, I prescribe more of the short-acting SSRIs, and it is my > impression that more than 5% to 10% of my patients develop tolerance to their > meds after taking them from one to twelve months. My patients seem to improve > with an incremental increase in dose; however, one increase usually predicts > that they will later need a second increase as the same phenomenon occurs. When > we reach the upper limit of the recommended dosage range, I switch to an > alternate antidepressant, which often works — but not always. Sometimes such a > patient will creep up on their dose of the second SSRI and then return to the > first one, usually with renewed effectiveness at the initial starting dose. > This phemnomenon seems so common that I mention to patients that it can happen > and that if it does I want them to contact me. > The data is impressionistic, but it seems to me that I see much more of this > "dosage creep" (and don’t you hate that terminology!) than I used to see. > —— > I have had a very similar experience. This is now spoken about in many > psychopharm conferences as "poop out." In my experience it sometimes happens as > late as 3 years into an SSRI (typically Prozac, since it’s been around the > longest), in as many as 20% of patients. > What is to be done? There is talk among "poop out" veterans of adding > bromocriptine since there is speculation that this might be a dopaminergic > depletion phenomenon. People have said this helps, but I haven’t used it yet > myself. > —— > I have a lot of experience seeing people who have failed to respond to a series > of antidepressants and/or are failing to respond to a medication which used to > help. I have found that evaluating four factors will usually get things back on > track: > sleep problems > alcohol use > thyroid problems and > subsyndromal bipolar symptoms. > Alcohol use, even in small amounts, can disrupt sleep in sensitive individuals > and I usually recommend complete abstention from alcohol. > The most common problem I have found, however, is the presence of subtle, > subsyndromal bipolar symptoms, current or past, which may or may not meet > criteria for mania or hypomania. These patients do best with the addition of > lithium or another mood stabilizer. > —— > This wearing off phenonemon seems to be an all too frequent occurence with the > new antidepressants, in particular moclobemide. Rather than increasing the > dosage, a few of my colleagues down here paradoxically suggest a day or two to > a week without medication, with good results! Maybe it’s got something to do > with enzyme induction. Although others have suggested that this wearing off > merely reflects an initial placebo response, I don’t think it fully explains > this phenomenon. > —— > Lee Dante wrote, in part: > This phenomena of the SSRI "poop out" can usually be reversed by adding 25 mg > of naltrexone (marketed in the US as Revia), usually on top of supper to avoid > transient nausea. In anywhere from two weeks to five of once daily dosing the > SSRI regains the full effect and often is perceived as working better than it > did at first. I have done this in over forty cases where this has been most > gratifying. At this dose of naltrexone the incidence of side effects is very > low, and the improvement is sustained over a period of years. It has been the > end of poop out in my practice. > —— > That reminds me of a patient with opiate dependence in the post-detox phase. He > was receiving 20 mg of fluoxetine for a comorbid major depression and was > improving when naltrexone 50 mg/day was added. Within 4 days, he was hypomanic. > On discontinuation of fluoxetine (on the presumption of a SSRI-induced > hypomania), he returned to his previous baseline over a period of one week. At > that time, I did not think much of a possible interaction between fluoxetine & > naltrexone. Now, I begin to wonder! > —— > I’ve used Remeron (mirtazapine) fairly often for Paxil "poop-out". > Eric > "Oh you didnt get better cause you didnt work hard enough in talk therapy. Its > YOUR fault!." Quote from Typical talk therapy asshole after therapy fails to > relieve severe depression > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/MergePsychiatryIntoNeurology/

Can  someone with glaucoma or hypertension safely take ritalin for ADD?

Response:

Question:

Dear All I was hoping you might be able to give me some advice.  I am being treated for depression by my GP (in the uk).  I have taken prozac on and off for several years, and recently doctor suggested that I should go back on it long term.  However, a couple of weeks after starting it I got this really bizarre side effect – my throat felt really swollen and sore, like there was a lump stuck in it.  Went back to the doctor, he took me off the prozac, said I should wait until the throat got better (which it did after 2 1/2 weeks), then start taking Sertraline (Lustral in uk, Zoloft elsewhere?).  After 3 days, the throat symptoms are back. My questions are these – 1) how long should I take the sertraline before knowing for certain that the throat feeling is not going to get better? and 2) if I can’t take prozac and sertraline does that mean I will have the same symptoms with all SSRIs? and 3) if I can’t take SSRIs to help with my depression, what can I take? I have a light box to help with the SAD in winter, and try to exercise whenever I can, but I’m still not really leading a normal life – particularly with all this bother with the throat – it just makes me even more ‘ratty’! Any advice would be greatfully accepted Thanks Alison

Response:

<snip> > My questions are these – 1) how long should I take the sertraline before > knowing for certain that the throat feeling is not going to get better? > and

I don’t know anything about your throat problem, so I can’t comment on that. Though it seems like your doctor should try to figure out what the throat problem is exactly. > 2) if I can’t take prozac and sertraline does that mean I will have > the same symptoms with all SSRIs? and

No, not necessarily. Although the SSRIs are all broadly similar, they do have slightly different side-effect profiles. 3) if I can’t take SSRIs to help > with my depression, what can I take?

There are lots of other anti-depressants available that are also generally well-tolerated and effective. The SSRIs are just the newest class of them, and in some ways considered to have the most tolerable side effects and most effectiveness. Check out a site like www.mentalhealth.com or www.rxlist.com to see some of the others. Bright blessings. Fiona — If we had no winter, the spring would not be so pleasant: if we did not sometimes taste the adversity, prosperity would not be so welcome.      – Anne Bradstreet, Meditations Divine and Moral, 1664

Response:

Thanks for your reply – I think I must have been checked out for most things – I seemed to have about a million different blood tests before the doctor was convinced it was depression.  My blood pressure was quite high for a while too, so they tested loads of things then!  What would be the symptoms of hyperthyroidism? Alison – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – > Did your GP have you checked for hypothyroidism? > Dear All > I was hoping you might be able to give me some advice.  I am being > treated for depression by my GP (in the uk).  I have taken prozac on and > off for several years, and recently doctor suggested that I should go > back on it long term.  However, a couple of weeks after starting it I > got this really bizarre side effect – my throat felt really swollen and > sore, like there was a lump stuck in it.  Went back to the doctor, he > took me off the prozac, said I should wait until the throat got better > (which it did after 2 1/2 weeks), then start taking Sertraline (Lustral > in uk, Zoloft elsewhere?).  After 3 days, the throat symptoms are back. > My questions are these – 1) how long should I take the sertraline before > knowing for certain that the throat feeling is not going to get better? > and 2) if I can’t take prozac and sertraline does that mean I will have > the same symptoms with all SSRIs? and 3) if I can’t take SSRIs to help > with my depression, what can I take? > I have a light box to help with the SAD in winter, and try to exercise > whenever I can, but I’m still not really leading a normal life – > particularly with all this bother with the throat – it just makes me > even more ‘ratty’! > Any advice would be greatfully accepted > Thanks > Alison

Response:

Hi Alison, Welcome to the ng. > I was hoping you might be able to give me some advice.  I am being

Zoloft can cause difficulty swallowing…what has your Internal Medicine doctor advise? Tehere are several calsse of ADS…TCAs, MAOIS, NARIs…etc. Please discuss options with your doctor. Take care. Lynda

Response:

Alison, I have been taking Cipramil (another SSRI) for most of this year and had a very similar problem a few months ago – feeling like I had a lump in my throat.  I went to my doctor but she couldn’t see anything – my throat looked completely normal.  At the time I was also suffering very badly from headaches and went to get some acupuncture for them.  I also mentioned the strange lump in my throat feeling and the acupuncturalist immediately seemed to know what it was and described it as ‘plum stone throat’, a condition caused by stress.  This did make sense as  the sensation was just  the same as the lump I get in my throat if I’m trying not to cry, except it went on for days – plus I knew the headaches were stress-related anyway.  She treated me for it with needles and it did indeed go away and I’ve not had it again – acupuncture tends to work quite well for me, but it might not for everyone. Do get your thyroid checked out (I’ve had mine checked frequently and it’s fine) but if there’s no physical lump my guess is it’s a stress-related thing, or maybe a side effect of the SSRIs causing a stress-like reaction. Bug

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> Dear All > I was hoping you might be able to give me some advice.  I am being > treated for depression by my GP (in the uk).  I have taken prozac on and > off for several years, and recently doctor suggested that I should go > back on it long term.  However, a couple of weeks after starting it I > got this really bizarre side effect – my throat felt really swollen and > sore, like there was a lump stuck in it.  Went back to the doctor, he > took me off the prozac, said I should wait until the throat got better > (which it did after 2 1/2 weeks), then start taking Sertraline (Lustral > in uk, Zoloft elsewhere?).  After 3 days, the throat symptoms are back. > My questions are these – 1) how long should I take the sertraline before > knowing for certain that the throat feeling is not going to get better? > and 2) if I can’t take prozac and sertraline does that mean I will have > the same symptoms with all SSRIs? and 3) if I can’t take SSRIs to help > with my depression, what can I take? > I have a light box to help with the SAD in winter, and try to exercise > whenever I can, but I’m still not really leading a normal life – > particularly with all this bother with the throat – it just makes me > even more ‘ratty’! > Any advice would be greatfully accepted > Thanks > Alison

Response:

Question:

Hello group, I got a rather strange call from a (somewhat unreliable, somewhat alarmist) friend at three in the morning last night. He was listening to some radio show (he hadn’t ascertained the qualifications of the guests) in which *all* SSRIs were being denounced as a "total medical disaster," and futhermore, they made the astonishing claim that all SSRIs were being immediately recalled by the FDA. I am on Serzone, which seems to be working well for me. This drug, along with Celexa, Zoloft, Paxil, and a host of other SSRIs (along with Ritalin), were implicated as death-dealing drugs. (Again, I have no idea, nor did my friend seem to have any idea, exactly who was making these claims.) My friend held the phone up to the radio and I listened to a bit of it (admittedly half asleep). I heard a woman saying that depressed people, contrary to what the APA originally believed, have a *preponderence* of seratonin, not an impoverishment. She went on to say (in discussion with another unidentified woman) that SSRIs are causing agressive behavior, psychosis, an increase in depression, and (allegedly), in thousands upon thousands of cases, sudden death. The woman (a "doctor") made it sound as if this was "breaking news," and in my drowsy state I half expected to turn on CNN in the morning and hear, "SSRIs kill thousands, massive recall!" as their top story. So far, I haven’t heard a thing, and there seems to be no big stir on this newsgroup (and surely if there were anything cataclysmic afoot, you folks would be the first to know, right?). So where is this SSRI alert coming from? Have any of you heard anything about it? Many thanks, Heather "Make my make believe believe in me" Buck, Mills, Stipe

Response:

Not true or accurate… – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> I got a rather strange call from a (somewhat unreliable, somewhat alarmist) > friend at three in the morning last night. He was listening to some radio show

Response:

>Sounds like your friend heard one of these dickhead anti-psychiatry med >activists talking about SSRIs. Perhaps Dr. Tracey Anne Blakely or Peter >Breggin. There are a lot of these anti-psychiatry med assholes running around >nowadays

It was Ann Blake Tracy. She was on the Art Bell talk show Sat. night. She sounds like a real idiot.

Response:

Whatever Ann Blake Tracy may be, it’s worth checking out her web site, especially the first-hand SSRI horror stories that people have mailed in: http://www.drugawareness.org/Archives/Survivors/survivor_index.html. I find it hard to believe that she would have taken the trouble to fabricate all of these. Perhaps extreme adverse reactions are statistically rare, but they are not to be taken lightly.

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text ->Sounds like your friend heard one of these dickhead anti-psychiatry med >activists talking about SSRIs. Perhaps Dr. Tracey Anne Blakely or Peter >Breggin. There are a lot of these anti-psychiatry med assholes running around >nowadays > It was Ann Blake Tracy. She was on the Art Bell talk show Sat. night. > She sounds like a real idiot.

Response:

Question:

I’m considering buying some Paxil off of some guy to inhibit 2D6 to alter a DXM trip. Would this have any risk of seratonin syndrome? Would doing this once every 2 weeks have any risk of SSRI activity or other negative interactions? How much should I take to inhibit 2D6 as a one-time dose, 1 hour before I take the DXM? I know not to take SSRIs for depression, but I’m not going to take it as a SSRI. Has anybody else tried this?

Response:

I dub thee "guinea pig".  If you survive (very likely), please report, and consider making a trip report, along with any adverse effects, if any. thank you, ~Matthias "My mind is glowing…"

| I’m considering buying some Paxil off of some guy to inhibit 2D6 to alter a DXM | trip. Would this have any risk of seratonin syndrome? Would doing this once | every 2 weeks have any risk of SSRI activity or other negative interactions? How | much should I take to inhibit 2D6 as a one-time dose, 1 hour before I take the | DXM? I know not to take SSRIs for depression, but I’m not going to take it as a | SSRI. Has anybody else tried this? |

Response:

>I’m considering buying some Paxil off of some guy to inhibit 2D6 to alter a DXM >trip. Would this have any risk of seratonin syndrome? Would doing this once >every 2 weeks have any risk of SSRI activity or other negative interactions? How >much should I take to inhibit 2D6 as a one-time dose, 1 hour before I take the >DXM? I know not to take SSRIs for depression, but I’m not going to take it as a >SSRI. Has anybody else tried this?

First of all, don’t.  Second, if you must, ONLY attempt this at very low doses of DXM.  I don’t know about when you would take the Paxil (never would be good). — Joel Crump

Response:

> I’m considering buying some Paxil off of some guy to inhibit 2D6 to alter a DXM > trip. Would this have any risk of seratonin syndrome? Would doing this once > every 2 weeks have any risk of SSRI activity or other negative interactions? How > much should I take to inhibit 2D6 as a one-time dose, 1 hour before I take the > DXM? I know not to take SSRIs for depression, but I’m not going to take it as a > SSRI. Has anybody else tried this?

   This idea is totally stupid. — http://www.rfgdxm.f2s.com. My "Beginner’s Guide to DXM"- Version 2.3, and other DXM related material can be accessed from there. Revised with new section on known recreational DXM use deaths: http://www.rfgdxm.f2s.com/dxmdeaths.htm

Response:

> > I’m considering buying some Paxil off of some guy to inhibit 2D6 to alter a >  DXM > trip. Would this have any risk of seratonin syndrome? Would doing this once > every 2 weeks have any risk of SSRI activity or other negative interactions? >  How > much should I take to inhibit 2D6 as a one-time dose, 1 hour before I take >  the > DXM? I know not to take SSRIs for depression, but I’m not going to take it >  as a > SSRI. Has anybody else tried this?

if you try it, make the DXM a VERY LOW dose.. and i mean DAMN LOW. when i used to take paxil, i would get a huge buzz from two tablespoons of any cough syrup, no lie. i had to stop taking cough drops during school because i would start to get fucked up after about 3 or 4. that is no exageration either.

Response:

>>I’m considering buying some Paxil off of some guy to inhibit 2D6 to alter a DXM >trip. Would this have any risk of seratonin syndrome? Would doing this once >every 2 weeks have any risk of SSRI activity or other negative interactions? How >much should I take to inhibit 2D6 as a one-time dose, 1 hour before I take the >DXM? I know not to take SSRIs for depression, but I’m not going to take it as a >SSRI. Has anybody else tried this? >First of all, don’t.  Second, if you must, ONLY attempt this at very >low doses of DXM.  I don’t know about when you would take the Paxil >(never would be good).

I don’t know what the interaction between Paxil and DXM would be.  I do know from personal experience that DXM doesn’t seem to interact with Wellbutrin or Effexor.  There are so many people using Paxil and DXM and I haven’t read about any bad experiences on alt.drugs.  You get to be a guinea pig and inform us of your experience.

Response:

I did a 4P on paxil.  I had the most incredible trip ever.  I also came back to reality in the ER.  I won’t go into detail, but that part really really sucked.

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> I’m considering buying some Paxil off of some guy to inhibit 2D6 to alter a DXM > trip. Would this have any risk of seratonin syndrome? Would doing this once > every 2 weeks have any risk of SSRI activity or other negative interactions? How > much should I take to inhibit 2D6 as a one-time dose, 1 hour before I take the > DXM? I know not to take SSRIs for depression, but I’m not going to take it as a > SSRI. Has anybody else tried this?

Response:

Hehehehehe!  The best stuff is usually the most dangerous, ‘eh? ~Matthias "My mind is glowing…"

| I did a 4P on paxil.  I had the most incredible trip ever.  I also came back | to reality in the ER.  I won’t go into detail, but that part really really | sucked. | |

| > I’m considering buying some Paxil off of some guy to inhibit 2D6 to alter | a DXM | > trip. Would this have any risk of seratonin syndrome? Would doing this | once | > every 2 weeks have any risk of SSRI activity or other negative | interactions? How | > much should I take to inhibit 2D6 as a one-time dose, 1 hour before I take | the | > DXM? I know not to take SSRIs for depression, but I’m not going to take it | as a | > SSRI. Has anybody else tried this? | > | |

Response:

> I did a 4P on paxil.  I had the most incredible trip ever.  I also came back > to reality in the ER.  I won’t go into detail, but that part really really > sucked.

    I’ll gather you didn’t read my warnings not to do that? — http://www.rfgdxm.f2s.com. My "Beginner’s Guide to DXM"- Version 2.3, and other DXM related material can be accessed from there. Revised with new section on known recreational DXM use deaths: http://www.rfgdxm.f2s.com/dxmdeaths.htm

Response:

I honstely don’t remember, this was a few years ago.  My memory’s not too clear (because of the lesions?).  All the doctors told me I was extremely lucky to have lived and recovered from the experience as well as I did.  I think my heart rate was at 170 for about 24 hours and slowly started returning to normal after that.  My eyes were also doing REMs while my lids were open. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text ->     I’ll gather you didn’t read my warnings not to do that? > — > http://www.rfgdxm.f2s.com. My "Beginner’s Guide to DXM"- Version 2.3, > and other DXM related material can be accessed from there. > Revised with new section on known recreational DXM use deaths: > http://www.rfgdxm.f2s.com/dxmdeaths.htm

Response:

>I did a 4P on paxil.  I had the most incredible trip ever.  I also came back >to reality in the ER.  I won’t go into detail, but that part really really >sucked.

How many milligrams of DXM did you consume?

Response:

Slightly over  a gram.  Coricidin.  That didn’t help things much.

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text ->I did a 4P on paxil.  I had the most incredible trip ever.  I also came back >to reality in the ER.  I won’t go into detail, but that part really really >sucked. > How many milligrams of DXM did you consume?

Response:

There’s your problem.  Know we don’t know if it was the paxil, or the coricdin that did you in.  Shit, you really are lucky to be alive.  For all we know, the paxil saved your life! ~Matthias "My mind is glowing…"

| Slightly over  a gram.  Coricidin.  That didn’t help things much. | | |

| > >I did a 4P on paxil.  I had the most incredible trip ever.  I also came | back | > >to reality in the ER.  I won’t go into detail, but that part really | really | > >sucked. | > | > How many milligrams of DXM did you consume? | > | > | > | |

Response:

I imagine it was a little of everything.  Until that point I had done Coicidin many times.  Never a 4P though.  Now that I think about it, there were 2 other occaisions where I did DXM with Paxil.  They were both with pure DXM powder and not Coricidin.  They were all completely fucked up but the Coricidin + Paxil trip was just chaotic as hell and affected my motor control a lot more than the pure DXM.  For example, when I took Coricidin and Paxil, my friend said (before I got escorted to the ER) that my right leg was spasming uncontrollably.  Uh, that’s all I got right now, I’m buzzing pretty hard. > There’s your problem.  Know we don’t know if it was the paxil, or the

coricdin that did you – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> in.  Shit, you really are lucky to be alive.  For all we know, the paxil saved your life! > ~Matthias > "My mind is glowing…" > | Slightly over  a gram.  Coricidin.  That didn’t help things much. > | > | > | > | > >I did a 4P on paxil.  I had the most incredible trip ever.  I also came > | back > | > >to reality in the ER.  I won’t go into detail, but that part really > | really > | > >sucked. > | > > | > How many milligrams of DXM did you consume? > | > > | > > | > > | > |

Response:

>Slightly over  a gram.  Coricidin.  That didn’t help things much.

I regularly consume 1180mg.  Sometimes I buy 2 8oz bottles of 15mg/ml syrup and consume them for a total of over 1400mg. Sometimes it barely fazes me and other time I trip balls. Stay away from Coricidin!  I have access to pure 15mg/ml syrup and 10mg/ml syrup combined with guanefeisan.

Response:

Question:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – > Here is a real genuine neuro researcher who is doing REAL research that > actually amounts to something tangible. This research is being done on the > frontal lobe…the same part of the brain associated heavily with mood > disorders. We need more people like this and more research like this…research > that could lead somewhere. > We dont need more money wasted on dipshit psychology research studies studying > whether talk therapy is better than SSRIs. Or studies trying to figure out dumb > psychology shit. We need to be figuring out the human brain! Thats what could > lead to dramatic improvements in mental illness diagnosis and treatment. > Here is the link: > http://www.cnn.com/SPECIALS/2001/americasbest/science.medicine/rakic….

Time magazine on line is just the kind of source which one would expect you to draw from, Eric. LOL.

Response:

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> Here is a real genuine neuro researcher who is doing REAL research that > actually amounts to something tangible. This research is being done on the > frontal lobe…the same part of the brain associated heavily with mood > disorders. We need more people like this and more research like this…research > that could lead somewhere. > We dont need more money wasted on dipshit psychology research studies studying > whether talk therapy is better than SSRIs. Or studies trying to figure out dumb > psychology shit. We need to be figuring out the human brain! Thats what could > lead to dramatic improvements in mental illness diagnosis and treatment. > Here is the link:

http://www.cnn.com/SPECIALS/2001/americasbest/science.medicine/rakic…. > Time magazine on line is just the kind of source which one would expect > you to draw from, Eric. > LOL.

Click on the little plus sign, predict it will be Steve who shows up.  Gee, I gots ESP. Ralph V

Response:

> Here is a real genuine neuro researcher who is doing REAL research that > actually amounts to something tangible. This research is being done on the > frontal lobe…the same part of the brain associated heavily with mood > disorders. We need more people like this and more research like this…research > that could lead somewhere. > We dont need more money wasted on dipshit psychology research studies studying > whether talk therapy is better than SSRIs. Or studies trying to figure out dumb > psychology shit. We need to be figuring out the human brain! Thats what could > lead to dramatic improvements in mental illness diagnosis and treatment.

Did you read the article? It says, "Psychologists in particular respect Goldman-Rakic for the way she is constantly trying to bring psychology and biology closer together – thinking about the mind as a whole even while she is looking through a microscope." Eric, I read a really good essay last week about what constitutes good science, and what attitude a good researcher must have. Good science doesn’t claim to have the answer. Good science leads to more questions that need answering. Good scientists always have doubt. They know they don’t know. People who speak of science with certainty have closed minds, and show bias in their interpretations. In summation, if you want good science, look for science that forces you to ask new questions. Larry

Response:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> Here is a real genuine neuro researcher who is doing REAL research that > actually amounts to something tangible. This research is being done on the > frontal lobe…the same part of the brain associated heavily with mood > disorders. We need more people like this and more research like > this…research > that could lead somewhere. > We dont need more money wasted on dipshit psychology research studies > studying > whether talk therapy is better than SSRIs. Or studies trying to figure out > dumb > psychology shit. We need to be figuring out the human brain! Thats what > could > lead to dramatic improvements in mental illness diagnosis and treatment. > Did you read the article? It says, "Psychologists in particular respect > Goldman-Rakic for the way she is constantly trying to bring psychology and > biology closer together – thinking about the mind as a whole even while she > is looking through a microscope." > Eric, I read a really good essay last week about what constitutes good > science, and what attitude a good researcher must have. Good science doesn’t > claim to have the answer. Good science leads to more questions that need > answering. Good scientists always have doubt. They know they don’t know. > People who speak of science with certainty have closed minds, and show bias > in their interpretations. In summation, if you want good science, look for > science that forces you to ask new questions. > Larry

That’s really good Larry.  In academia a certain school of thought often becomes vogue among students, like a style, and you’re just not cool if you’re not wearing it this year. I think that’s what happens with psychobiology and also with drugs – drugs can be fashionable one year, e.g. PROZAC, and if the side effects reach an intolerance level among the public, go out of fashion. Squiggles

Response:

> > > We dont need more money wasted on dipshit psychology research studies >  studying > > whether talk therapy is better than SSRIs. Or studies trying to figure out >  dumb > > psychology shit. We need to be figuring out the human brain! Thats what >  could > > lead to dramatic improvements in mental illness diagnosis and treatment.

Why do you consider studies investigating SSRIs and psychotherapy as unscientific, but research on the frontal lobe is seen in a different fashion ? It should be noted that psychological therapies can affect brain function. For example, some research suggests OCD patients who improve with prozac show the same brain changes – observed via PET scans – as those successfully treated with behaviorial therapy.

Response:

Question:

Lately there has been a bunch of crap being posted on here about the SSRIs, such as Prozac and Paxil. Keep in mind that most of this information being posted is being posted by those  with a dx of hardcore bipolar manic depression. This is  a fundamentally different psychiatric illness than unipolar major depression. Many of these bipolar manic depressives trash SSRIs left and right every chance they get, making these drugs outto be the devil’s drugs or something. However the specifics are being left out in many of these bipolar’s posts which denigrate the SSRIs. Anytime you read something, especially when claims are made aboutsomething, you should ask yourself "who is this person who wrote this?"  You need to find out who they are, what their personal biases and slants are. So their posts can be taken in context of that person’s experiences. First of all, its a well known general rule in psychiatry that hardcore manic depressives do best to stay away from SSRIs if at all possible…ESPECIALLY Prozac. Its well established in the psychiatric literature that SSRIs can easily activate mania or hypomania in individuals with bipolar manic diagnosis. Prozac in particular is extremely dangerous for those with bipolar dx. This is due to Prozac’s extremely long half life…it takes forever for all of the Prozac to be excreted outof your body if you discontinue it. Oftentimes up to five weeks…sometimes more if the Prozac dose was  a large dose. If the Prozac activates mania or psychosis in a bipolar person, this means that the person must wait weeks or months before the Prozac is out of their system thus prolonging mania/psychosis/hypomania…Prozac can very much complicate a bipolar person’s life. Its best avoided  if you have a hardcore bipolar dx. However the same goes for all the SSRIs, Paxil, Zoloft…whatever. These drugs can all activate mania in susceptible individuals (bipolar).  What irritates me is when these bipolar people come onto a NG mainly oriented for unipolar depression and trash the SSRIs left and right, making these drugs to  sound as if they are totally evil and worthless for nothing. That might be true if you are a manic depressive, but its hardly true if  your dx is unipolar major depression or if you have a anxiety disorder like panic attacks, OCD, etc. The preferred "core" meds used for the bipolar manic spectrum mainly revolve around mood stabilizers like lithium, depakote, Topomax, Tegretol, etc. As well as various anti-psychotic medications. These are the meat and potatoes meds for those diagnosed with bipolar. If an antidepressant is needed Wellbutrin is the preferred AD as it has a reputation for having a low incidence of activing mania or psychosis. Sometimes bipolar folks do go on SSRIs or Effexor, with varying results. Sometimes it results in activation of mania/hypomania and sometimes that results in being hospitalized. So these bipolar people hanging out on ASDM lately they need to be much more specific in their posts. Sure, SSRIs might have been the absolute worst drug for THEM, but  keep  in mind what their diagnosis was to begin with. I mean what the fuck do you expect when your dx is bipolar manic depression and you go on an SSRI and  you subsequently flip out and activate into mania/psychosis. Surprise surprise surprise…actually no surprise at all its predictable. For those of us who are unipolar and not bipolar, these terrible things that happen with SSRIs with bipolar folks simply do not happen…sorry but you people need to be more honest in your posts and be more honest with you who are…bipolar manic depressives and your needs and requirements DO  NOT apply to those of us with unipolar depression. Please be more specific in your posts from now on. Such as saying, "yeah, SSRIs activated severe mania in me but then again what do you expect cause Im a bipolar manic depressive." Eric Steroids caused my depression…prednisone should be used conservatively http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FactsAndFallaciesOfDepression MIBS (Minimally Invasive Brain Stimulation) http://www.musc.edu/psychiatry/fnrd/tms.htm

Response:

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> Lately there has been a bunch of crap being posted on here about the SSRIs, > such as Prozac and Paxil. Keep in mind that most of this information being > posted is being posted by those  with a dx of hardcore bipolar manic > depression. This is  a fundamentally different psychiatric illness than > unipolar major depression. Many of these bipolar manic depressives trash SSRIs > left and right every chance they get, making these drugs outto be the devil’s > drugs or something. However the specifics are being left out in many of these > bipolar’s posts which denigrate the SSRIs. > Anytime you read something, especially when claims are made aboutsomething, you > should ask yourself "who is this person who wrote this?"  You need to find out > who they are, what their personal biases and slants are. So their posts can be > taken in context of that person’s experiences. > First of all, its a well known general rule in psychiatry that hardcore manic > depressives do best to stay away from SSRIs if at all

possible…ESPECIALLY – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> Prozac. Its well established in the psychiatric literature that SSRIs can > easily activate mania or hypomania in individuals with bipolar manic diagnosis. > Prozac in particular is extremely dangerous for those with bipolar dx. This is > due to Prozac’s extremely long half life…it takes forever for all of the > Prozac to be excreted outof your body if you discontinue it. Oftentimes up to > five weeks…sometimes more if the Prozac dose was  a large dose. If the Prozac > activates mania or psychosis in a bipolar person, this means that the person > must wait weeks or months before the Prozac is out of their system thus > prolonging mania/psychosis/hypomania…Prozac can very much complicate a > bipolar person’s life. Its best avoided  if you have a hardcore bipolar dx. > However the same goes for all the SSRIs, Paxil, Zoloft…whatever. These drugs > can all activate mania in susceptible individuals (bipolar).  What irritates me > is when these bipolar people come onto a NG mainly oriented for unipolar > depression and trash the SSRIs left and right, making these drugs to sound as > if they are totally evil and worthless for nothing. That might be true if you > are a manic depressive, but its hardly true if  your dx is unipolar major > depression or if you have a anxiety disorder like panic attacks, OCD, etc. > The preferred "core" meds used for the bipolar manic spectrum mainly revolve > around mood stabilizers like lithium, depakote, Topomax, Tegretol, etc. As well > as various anti-psychotic medications. These are the meat and potatoes meds for > those diagnosed with bipolar. If an antidepressant is needed Wellbutrin is the > preferred AD as it has a reputation for having a low incidence of activing > mania or psychosis. Sometimes bipolar folks do go on SSRIs or Effexor, with > varying results. Sometimes it results in activation of mania/hypomania and > sometimes that results in being hospitalized. > So these bipolar people hanging out on ASDM lately they need to be much more > specific in their posts. Sure, SSRIs might have been the absolute worst drug > for THEM, but  keep  in mind what their diagnosis was to begin with. I mean > what the fuck do you expect when your dx is bipolar manic depression and you go > on an SSRI and  you subsequently flip out and activate into mania/psychosis. > Surprise surprise surprise…actually no surprise at all its predictable. > For those of us who are unipolar and not bipolar, these terrible things that > happen with SSRIs with bipolar folks simply do not happen…sorry but you > people need to be more honest in your posts and be more honest with you who > are…bipolar manic depressives and your needs and requirements DO  NOT apply > to those of us with unipolar depression. > Please be more specific in your posts from now on. Such as saying, "yeah, SSRIs > activated severe mania in me but then again what do you expect cause Im a > bipolar manic depressive."

Even you were 100% correct and SSRIs only activate homocidal mania in bipolars.. How do you explain the "normal" test subjects becoming suicidally depressed? regards, Bob ps Hope your feeling better and your changes help.. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> Eric > Steroids caused my depression…prednisone should be used conservatively > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FactsAndFallaciesOfDepression > MIBS (Minimally Invasive Brain Stimulation) > http://www.musc.edu/psychiatry/fnrd/tms.htm

Response:

<< Even you were 100% correct and SSRIs only activate homocidal mania in bipolars.. Yes I am right about SSRIs activating mania in bipolar manic depressives. Its well established that SSRIs do this to the bipolar people. VERY WELL ESTABLISHED. Prozac is usually contraindicated in bipolar. Anyone who has a strong bipolar history and messes with SSRIs is asking for it. This is well known in psychiatry. The antidepressant of choice for bipolar is Wellbutrin, preferably the extended release form of it Wellbutrin SR. Bipolars mostly stick to mood stabilizers and anti-psychotics as their "meat and potatoes" drugs…antidepressants for bipolar is usually not the most important drug. >How do you explain the "normal" test subjects becoming suicidally depressed?

I dont know. I suspect that the extreme SSRI activation that SSRIs can cause early in starting an SSRI scares some patients, especially ones with prominent anxiety. Perhaps this activation with increased anxiety that SSRIs cause can make some depressives more depressed for a few weeks, I do agree that SSRIs oftentimes make you feel actually worse for a week or two when you first start taking them. This is probably where it comes from. I do agree the pharmaceutical companies…and doctors also….should do a better job of informing people who are going to take SSRIs of the early onset adjustment side effects of these meds, the "SSRI activation" especially as it can be quite scary for some who do not understand what is going on. The key to the SSRIs is to realize they make you feel shittier in the beginning but once the body adjusts after a few weeks you begin feeling much better. Eric regards, Bob ps Hope your feeling better and your changes help.. Steroids caused my depression…prednisone should be used conservatively http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FactsAndFallaciesOfDepression MIBS (Minimally Invasive Brain Stimulation) http://www.musc.edu/psychiatry/fnrd/tms.htm

Response:

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> << Even you were 100% correct and SSRIs only > activate homocidal mania in bipolars.. > Yes I am right about SSRIs activating mania in bipolar manic depressives. Its > well established that SSRIs do this to the bipolar people. VERY WELL > ESTABLISHED. Prozac is usually contraindicated in bipolar. Anyone who has a > strong bipolar history and messes with SSRIs is asking for it. This is well > known in psychiatry. > The antidepressant of choice for bipolar is Wellbutrin, preferably the extended > release form of it Wellbutrin SR. Bipolars mostly stick to mood stabilizers and > anti-psychotics as their "meat and potatoes" drugs…antidepressants for > bipolar is usually not the most important drug. >How do you explain the "normal" test subjects becoming suicidally depressed? > I dont know. I suspect that the extreme SSRI activation that SSRIs can cause > early in starting an SSRI scares some patients, especially ones with prominent > anxiety. Perhaps this activation with increased anxiety that SSRIs cause can > make some depressives more depressed for a few weeks, I do agree that SSRIs > oftentimes make you feel actually worse for a week or two when you first start > taking them. This is probably where it comes from. > I do agree the pharmaceutical companies…and doctors also….should do a > better job of informing people who are going to take SSRIs of the early onset > adjustment side effects of these meds, the "SSRI activation" especially as it > can be quite scary for some who do not understand what is going on. > The key to the SSRIs is to realize they make you feel shittier in the beginning > but once the body adjusts after a few weeks you begin feeling much better.

Well in that case just prescribing them and sending people away verges on criminal irresponsibity.. and there should be some prosecutions to go along with the SSRI horror stories. regards, Bob – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> Eric > regards, > Bob > ps Hope your feeling better and your changes help.. > Steroids caused my depression…prednisone should be used conservatively > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FactsAndFallaciesOfDepression > MIBS (Minimally Invasive Brain Stimulation) > http://www.musc.edu/psychiatry/fnrd/tms.htm

Response:

>First of all, its a well known general rule in psychiatry that hardcore manic >depressives do best to stay away from SSRIs if at all possible…ESPECIALLY >Prozac.

I was treated with ssri’s for years, after being dx’ed bipolar, you need a ms……duh. Remove the **** from my address for email replies…. —–= Posted via Newsfeeds.Com, Uncensored Usenet News =—– http://www.newsfeeds.com – The #1 Newsgroup Service in the World! —–==  Over 80,000 Newsgroups – 16 Different Servers! =—–

Response:

Question:

Anyone have any experiences being on meds and taking psychedelics & mushrooms? Are there any known problems with this combo? p.s. – I’m on Paxil and want to try shrooms and acid.

Response:

If I recall correctly, LSD triggers a massive and sustained release of serotonin. As Paxil is an SSRI, I’d think the combination might be dangerous. It just might make for a cheaper/better high. I’m sure somebody’s done it…. Larry

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> Anyone have any experiences being on meds and taking psychedelics & mushrooms? > Are there any known problems with this combo? > p.s. – I’m on Paxil and want to try shrooms and acid.

Response:

I think Larry’s confusing LSD’s mechanism with that of Ecstacy (MDMA). LSD does act on serotonin amongst other neurotransmitters but not by releasing a flood of serotonin. But Ecstacy does, and you would be well advised to tread very carefully when using Ecstacy on top of prescribed SSRIs. I took both Acid and mushies without any problems at all while using Paxil, which I took for about a year.

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> If I recall correctly, LSD triggers a massive and sustained release of > serotonin. As Paxil is an SSRI, I’d think the combination might be > dangerous. It just might make for a cheaper/better high. I’m sure somebody’s > done it…. > Larry > Anyone have any experiences being on meds and taking psychedelics & > mushrooms? > Are there any known problems with this combo? > p.s. – I’m on Paxil and want to try shrooms and acid.

Response:

I’m sorry, but you didn’t recall correctly…that was mdma. There are some articles on these combinations (psychedelics and antidepressants) on-line on erowid (look under lsd).

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text ->If I recall correctly, LSD triggers a massive and sustained release of >serotonin. As Paxil is an SSRI, I’d think the combination might be >dangerous. It just might make for a cheaper/better high. I’m sure somebody’s >done it…. >Larry > Anyone have any experiences being on meds and taking psychedelics & >mushrooms? > Are there any known problems with this combo? > p.s. – I’m on Paxil and want to try shrooms and acid.

Response:

>Anyone have any experiences being on meds and taking psychedelics & mushrooms? >Are there any known problems with this combo? >p.s. – I’m on Paxil and want to try shrooms and acid.

The SSRI’s tend to reduce the effects of psychedelics. See: http://www.erowid.org/chemicals/maois/maois_info4.shtml Mind Books offers publications about psychedelics;

Response:

You must be young and not scared of any kind of problem you may create for yourself.  Hey, been there.  I’m gonna live forever trip.  Paxil + LSD. Hell, LSD will give you a panic attack.  This combo could be counterproductive. Now that I know that more than 1/2 of my life is done for and I don’t have an eternity left – I realize what a danger that could be.  I was young when all the Hippies were doing LSD, Shrooms, Cocaine, Heroin and Weed and at an impressionable age.  Acid trips were groovy, shrooms either made you puke or were a great trip and weed, well that is what all the US draft dodgers that came to hidden places on the BC Coast grew and sold for a living.  Story is that they still don’t know the war is over because they have forgotten why then went into the bushes in the first place. That may tell you something. Cheers, Carrie

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> Anyone have any experiences being on meds and taking psychedelics & mushrooms? > Are there any known problems with this combo? > p.s. – I’m on Paxil and want to try shrooms and acid.

Response:

My understanding is that Ecstasy sucks up all your serotonin, more and more with each use.  Then eventually one day, you will never be able to experience happiness again, and be completely untreatable because your serotonin is forever depleted.  Hmmm.  Close enough? Cheers, Carrie

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> I think Larry’s confusing LSD’s mechanism with that of Ecstacy (MDMA). > LSD does act on serotonin amongst other neurotransmitters but not by > releasing a flood of serotonin. But Ecstacy does, and you would be well > advised to tread very carefully when using Ecstacy on top of prescribed > SSRIs. > I took both Acid and mushies without any problems at all while using Paxil, > which I took for about a year. > If I recall correctly, LSD triggers a massive and sustained release of > serotonin. As Paxil is an SSRI, I’d think the combination might be > dangerous. It just might make for a cheaper/better high. I’m sure > somebody’s > done it…. > Larry > > Anyone have any experiences being on meds and taking psychedelics & > mushrooms? > > Are there any known problems with this combo? > > p.s. – I’m on Paxil and want to try shrooms and acid.

Response:

I would agree that at least some antidepressants decrease the effects of psychedelics.  Four or five months ago I tried several doses of acid that many were raving about.  I barely noticed it.  Twice during this period I also tried shrooms and only a massive amount (the second time) gave me any shroom experience at all. I am normally fairly sensitive to psychedelics.  I was taking Serzone at nearly 600 mg./day at that time. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text ->Anyone have any experiences being on meds and taking psychedelics & mushrooms? >Are there any known problems with this combo? >p.s. – I’m on Paxil and want to try shrooms and acid. > The SSRI’s tend to reduce the effects of psychedelics. See: > http://www.erowid.org/chemicals/maois/maois_info4.shtml > Mind Books offers publications about psychedelics;

Response:

True, back in the late 70’s I did quite a bit of acid and only once did I have a truly good trip.  The stuff never helped me any and I flipped out on it several times, probably worsening my mental condition for a long period of time.  A psychiatrist told me during that time that he figured someone with a well integrated personality could benefit from psychedelics, but those of us who are not so stable should probably avoid them. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – > << > You must be young and not scared of any kind of problem you may create for > yourself.  Hey, been there.  I’m gonna live forever trip.  Paxil + LSD. > Hell, LSD will give you a panic attack.  This combo could be > counterproductive. > Now that I know that more than 1/2 of my life is done for and I don’t have > an eternity left – I realize what a danger that could be.  I was young when > all the Hippies were doing LSD, Shrooms, Cocaine, Heroin and Weed and at an > impressionable age.  Acid trips were groovy, shrooms either made you puke or > were a great trip and weed, well that is what all the US draft dodgers that > came to hidden places on the BC Coast grew and sold for a living.  Story is > that they still don’t know the war is over because they have forgotten why > then went into the bushes in the first place. > That may tell you something. > Cheers, > Carrie >> > True, recreatonal hallucinogenic drugs like LSD, PCP and ecstasy have sent more > than one formally normal person to the psych ward, to lockup for psychosis. I > wonder how many cases of schizophrenia have been activated from messing with > hallucinogenics? > There is a guy on here who claims that combining ecstasy with Effexor totally > screwed himup. Im not surprised at all. > Another  drug that really can send you psychotic is that GHB crap…the date > rape drug. Repeated use of it leads to paranoia and eventual total psychosis. > Needless to say, anyone who already has mental illness problems and messes with > hallucinogenics deserves whatever they get. > Eric > Steroids caused my depression…prednisone should be used conservatively > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FactsAndFallaciesOfDepression > MIBS (Minimally Invasive Brain Stimulation) > http://www.musc.edu/psychiatry/fnrd/tms.htm

Response:

> Anyone have any experiences being on meds and taking psychedelics & mushrooms? > Are there any known problems with this combo?

SSRIs and acid should be ok. SSRIs will lessen the fx of mdma, but in my experience acid still kicks ass.

Response:

It does ‘deplete reserves’ of serotonin, so overuse will dry you up, as it were. Proving you give yourself three or four weeks between hits, you’re OK because your body gets chance to ‘restock’.

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> My understanding is that Ecstasy sucks up all your serotonin, more and more > with each use.  Then eventually one day, you will never be able to > experience happiness again, and be completely untreatable because your > serotonin is forever depleted.  Hmmm.  Close enough? > Cheers, > Carrie > I think Larry’s confusing LSD’s mechanism with that of Ecstacy (MDMA). > LSD does act on serotonin amongst other neurotransmitters but not by > releasing a flood of serotonin. But Ecstacy does, and you would be well > advised to tread very carefully when using Ecstacy on top of prescribed > SSRIs. > I took both Acid and mushies without any problems at all while using > Paxil, > which I took for about a year. > > If I recall correctly, LSD triggers a massive and sustained release of > > serotonin. As Paxil is an SSRI, I’d think the combination might be > > dangerous. It just might make for a cheaper/better high. I’m sure > somebody’s > > done it…. > > Larry > > > Anyone have any experiences being on meds and taking psychedelics & > > mushrooms? > > > Are there any known problems with this combo? > > > p.s. – I’m on Paxil and want to try shrooms and acid.

Response:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text ->True, back in the late 70’s I did quite a bit of acid and only once did I >have a >truly good trip.  The stuff never helped me any and I flipped out on it >several >times, probably worsening my mental condition for a long period of time.  A >psychiatrist told me during that time that he figured someone with a well >integrated personality could benefit from psychedelics, but those of us who >are not >so stable should probably avoid them. > You are an idiot. Psychedelic drugs build nobody up, whether they are "stable" > or not. Your Psychiatrist was an idiot and should have his medical license > pulled.

While I would not suggest that people do LSD, many people made significant breakthroughs while taking LSD in therapeutic settings in experiments during the 60’s…. Psychedelics are quite powerful, and can lead to very powerful insights, or powerful bad trips…thats the rub.

Response:

DONT BE STUPID!!! IF YOUR ON ANTI-D’s THERE MUST BE A REASON EITHER U DONT HAVE THE ABLITY TO COPE WITH LIFE OR U HAVE A PROBLEM WITH CHEMICALS IN YOUR BRAIN, EITHER TRY TO STOP TAKING PAXIL AND LIVE A HAPPY LIFE WITHOUT MEDICATION FOR A WHILE OR GIVE UP THE IDEA OF TAKING PSYCHEDELICS. IM ONLY TELLING U THIS FOR YOUR OWN GOOD, THERE CAN BE TRERRIBLE PROBLEMS INVOLVED. ANDY

Response:

We can all be happy that we are not on LSD and trying to read this post. I can’t read this – my brain starts screaming out the words and echoing off my interior skull, I feel so internally abused . Carrie

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> DONT BE STUPID!!! > IF YOUR ON ANTI-D’s THERE MUST BE A REASON EITHER U DONT HAVE THE > ABLITY TO COPE WITH LIFE OR U HAVE A PROBLEM WITH CHEMICALS IN YOUR > BRAIN, EITHER TRY TO STOP TAKING PAXIL AND LIVE A HAPPY LIFE WITHOUT > MEDICATION FOR A WHILE OR GIVE UP THE IDEA OF TAKING PSYCHEDELICS. IM > ONLY TELLING U THIS FOR YOUR OWN GOOD, THERE CAN BE TRERRIBLE PROBLEMS > INVOLVED. > > ANDY

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> DONT BE STUPID!!! > IF YOUR ON ANTI-D’s THERE MUST BE A REASON EITHER U DONT HAVE THE > ABLITY TO COPE WITH LIFE OR U HAVE A PROBLEM WITH CHEMICALS IN YOUR > BRAIN, EITHER TRY TO STOP TAKING PAXIL AND LIVE A HAPPY LIFE WITHOUT > MEDICATION FOR A WHILE OR GIVE UP THE IDEA OF TAKING PSYCHEDELICS. IM > ONLY TELLING U THIS FOR YOUR OWN GOOD, THERE CAN BE TRERRIBLE PROBLEMS > INVOLVED. > > ANDY

Telling people to stop taking their prescribed antidepressant medication is both stupid and dangerous. Of course, in fairness, it is probably also both stupid and dangerous to combine antidepressants with many recreational drugs. And, on most keyboards, the caps lock key in on the left side of the keyboard, third key up. Stop Caps Abuse! Lizard

Response:

I thought I was okay until I read this email. The words are still rattling in my skull…. {Phant downs a Valium and 5Mg of Paxil then drops some acid just for kicks} Oh by the way, the reason people are prescribed SSRIs is often because they suffer a biological deficiency in prevailing serotonin levels which SSRIs correct. Then you can lead a normal life, which for some people includes recreational drugs.

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> DONT BE STUPID!!! > IF YOUR ON ANTI-D’s THERE MUST BE A REASON EITHER U DONT HAVE THE > ABLITY TO COPE WITH LIFE OR U HAVE A PROBLEM WITH CHEMICALS IN YOUR > BRAIN, EITHER TRY TO STOP TAKING PAXIL AND LIVE A HAPPY LIFE WITHOUT > MEDICATION FOR A WHILE OR GIVE UP THE IDEA OF TAKING PSYCHEDELICS. IM > ONLY TELLING U THIS FOR YOUR OWN GOOD, THERE CAN BE TRERRIBLE PROBLEMS > INVOLVED. > > ANDY

Response:

> And perhaps in some cases the recreational drugs my inhibit or > counteract the correcting effect of the SSRI. But as along as you have > the approval of the psychiatrist perscribing you the SSRI I guess it’s > OK.:)

The problem is that halluginogens/SSRI interactions haven’t really been widely studied. I think that if you’ve suffered from mood problems or depression then you’re safer taking acid while on SSRIs than while NOT on SSRIs. Of course – in general – it’s not advisable period. ALCOHOL in my experience uis the worst thing for inhibiting SSRI medication. – Life’s a bitch

Response:

>> And perhaps in some cases the recreational drugs my inhibit or > counteract the correcting effect of the SSRI. But as along as you have > the approval of the psychiatrist perscribing you the SSRI I guess it’s > OK.:) >The problem is that halluginogens/SSRI interactions haven’t really been >widely studied.

There was one study: http://www.erowid.org/chemicals/maois/maois_info4.shtml >I think that if you’ve suffered from mood problems or depression then you’re >safer taking acid while on SSRIs than while NOT on SSRIs. >Of course – in general – it’s not advisable period. >ALCOHOL in my experience uis the worst thing for inhibiting SSRI >medication. – Life’s a bitch

Mind Books offers publications about psychedelics;

Response:

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text ->My understanding is that Ecstasy sucks up all your serotonin, more and more >with each use.  Then eventually one day, you will never be able to >experience happiness again, and be completely untreatable because your >serotonin is forever depleted.  Hmmm.  Close enough? >Cheers, >Carrie > No, Ecstasy does cause hyper secretion of Serotonin (and to a slightly > lesser extent dopamine), and it can take some time to rebuild > reserves, but the real damage is due to the hyper secretion depleting > the neuron’s energy reserves reducing it ability to repair free > radical/oxygen damage. It also makes it difficult for the neuron to > regulate ion exchange across the membrane and maintain internal > calcium ion (C++) balance. > BTW-anyone stupid enough to do E probably shouldn’t drink anything > containing Aspartame (Nutrasweet), which is made from Phenylalanine an > amino acid precursor of Dopamine. Increased Dopamine expression seems > to be necessary to produce physical neuron damage – damage that long > term studies suggest is irreversible. > Ian

Thanks for info, Ian.  In addition, for anyone on MAOIs – same deal with the Aspartame.  I always forgot that on MAOIs.  Mind you the amount you generally use is small, but what about someone like me that will drink 5 diet cokes a day? Carrie

Response:

> Antidepressants (ADs) can affect the body’s response to Ecstasy / > MDMA. Mixing some ADs and MDMA (and indeed most of the > hallucinogens) is very risky and some combinations can be fatal.

    Are there any fatal combinations of ADs and LSD?  Just wondering. — The optimist proclaims we live in the best of all possible worlds.  The pessimist fears this may be true.

Response:

> Thanks for info, Ian.  In addition, for anyone on MAOIs – same deal with the > Aspartame.  I always forgot that on MAOIs.  Mind you the amount you > generally use is small, but what about someone like me that will drink 5 > diet cokes a day?

      I’ve never understood why anyone would drink even ONE diet coke in a day. — The optimist proclaims we live in the best of all possible worlds.  The pessimist fears this may be true.

Response:

My girlfriend takes Effexor. It’s an antidepressant. For some reason she seems to have a very negative and grouchy effect with X but we’ve tripped plenty of times off of shrooms and acid… not at the same time though.  I also recently starting taking an antideprtessant… Serzone and I have yet to try it on X but I haven’t had any problems with shrooms or LSD either. I’m not an expert… just my observations.

> Anyone have any experiences being on meds and taking psychedelics & mushrooms? > Are there any known problems with this combo? > p.s. – I’m on Paxil and want to try shrooms and acid.

—–= Posted via Newsfeeds.Com, Uncensored Usenet News =—– http://www.newsfeeds.com – The #1 Newsgroup Service in the World! —–==  Over 80,000 Newsgroups – 16 Different Servers! =—–

Response:

>    Are there any fatal combinations of ADs and LSD?  Just wondering.

No, not fatal or physically harmful ones. But the AD’s can affect the level of effects, up or down; see: http://www.erowid.org/chemicals/maois/maois_info4.shtml Mind Books offers publications about psychedelics;

Response:

>Its a lot more complicated than that. Below is something I wrote last >year for another group which explains what happens, and can happen >even with the very first dose.

Unfortunately, you did not include dose-related information. Dose makes a huge difference. For example, Vollenweider has run studies giving about 120 mg of MDMA to human subjects who had never had it, and did not find any loss of 5HT transporters (as so no loss of 5HT axons). >…if you wanted to design a drug specifically to boost the incidence of >emotional disorders (and to a lesser extent psychotic illnesses), you >would be hard pressed to better Ecstasy and it’s chemical cousins.

This is complete bullshit. MDMA, used in psychiatric circles, has had many wonderful results. There’s no evidence that MDMA has caused any psychotic illness, or emotional disorders other than temporary depression the week after using it, and a limited number of anxiety disorders related to PTSD. >To compound their effects the methamphetamines

Lumping all methamphetamines together is irresponsable. Their dose-related neurotoxic effects are different, and the mental consequences of use are different. >these effects result in long-term Serotonin depletion[2b,5] within >affected neurons, and in some cases near complete exhaustion.

Many of these "studies" are highly biased, using much higher doses than most humans in animals, or comparing people who "party hearty" every weekend with graduate students. You have to carefully examine each study for flaws. There are some relatively accurate studies which show certain kind of damage or problems. It’s odd you did not mention the episodic memory problems, as several studies have shown these. Though most of these studies suffer from design problems, some (especially the Zakzanis paper in Neurology earlier this year) are credible. Whether this happens with people taking moderate doses (120 mg or so) of MDMA is still an open question. Zakzanis found significant memory problems (for some kinds of tasks but not others) in a group taking an average dose of 175 mg 2.4 times a month, but the dose range was 50 to 300 mg per episode, up to 15 times per month. Since all studies show damage is dose-related, his subjects showing memory problems could be only the ones taking the higher doses. One reason this seems probable is that blood levels of MDMA are not linear with dose; above a threshold (which is above the moderate 120 mg dose) blood levels rise more rapidly than linear with increasing MDMA doses. >The result can be the death of axon terminals and their >synapses,[1a,2a,5,7] and even of the neurons themselves. While >the degree of structural damage to cells appears to correlate to >the degree of drug use,[8] significant, long-term  damage can >occur from a single dose.[2a]

Sure, death could occur from a single dose, if someone ate a few ounces of MDMA! Even Ricarte, one of the most heavily biased researchers, has said most recreational users are probably not having significent levels of damage. Dose makes a huge difference. From the scientific evidence, it appears a single dose of around 120 mg (in average weight people), not repeated often (say, no more than once a month), probably does not cause axon loss. However, the neurotoxic threshold is probably not much above this level, even two of these doses (240 mg) could be reaching the neurotoxic level. >A study spanning 7 years[9] has shown that while some, limited, >improvement did occur, abnormal Serotonergic nerve patterns were >still evident at the end of the 7 year period.

In animals given relatively high doses. > A  number of psychiatric complications[3,10] may result from >this assault on Serotonin neurons, including depression and panic >disorder (PD).

Short-term depression the week after is relatively common; long- term depression or panic disorder is rare. Really, mixing in common problems with uncommon ones is misleading. >Hyper-secretion of Dopamine may lead to the onset >of Schizophrenia, a psychotic illness thought to result from >excess Dopamine expression in particular brain regions.

You are saying MDMA can cause schizophrenia? That’s rediculous. >While the onset of these disorders tends to become more likely with >prolonged use, it is possible to develop a disorder such as PD from >the first dose.[11]

Possible, but very unlikely. Any intense, traumatic experience can cause panic disorder or other anxiety disorders (such as hypervigalence), sometimes to the elvel of PTSD. But these intense mental traumas are rare with MDMA. >The extent of the cell damage may be increased by relying on some >of the ’safety’ advise being given to the unwary. For example, as >the Serotonin hyper-secretion properties of Ecstasy etc has >become common knowledge, some have advised that taking either of >the Serotonin precursors L-Tryptophan (L-T) and 5-HTP before and >during drug use will prevent the harmful effects.

5HTP does reduce neurotoxicity, at lerast in animals. "Attenuation of 3,4-methylenedioxymethamphetamine (MDMA) induced neurotoxicity with the serotonin precursors tryptophan and 5-HTP", Sprague JE, Huang X, Kanthasamy A, Nichols DE Life Sci, 1994; 55(15):1193-8 >Unfortunately, as I’ve shown above,  the neuron damage seems to result >not  from the excess Serotonin production, but from the energy >depletion within cells that this causes.[1a,6]  

This is just a theory, and the fact that 5-HTP does reduce neurotoxic effects does not support your theory. The leading theory is that some dopamine (or an oxidized form) enters the 5-HT axons through the transporter (because of how MDMA affects the transporter). Some anti-oxidants (vitamin C, alpha-linoleic acid?) have been shown to reduce neurotoxicity in animal experiments. >Furthermore, Serotonin hyper-secretion activates an inhibition mechanism >that significantly slows L-T conversion to Serotonin.[3,13]

It does reduce the TP to 5-HTP metabolism. Another ref for this is: "In vitro reactivation of rat cortical tryptophan hydroxylase following in vivo inactivation by MDMA", Stone DM, Hanson GR, Gibb JW, J Neurochem, 1989; 53(2):572-81 But that’s why 5-HTP is useful, the 5-HTP to 5-HT (serotonin) conversion is not affected. >Most users also seem unaware that both precursors can be >dangerous in their own right. A L-Tryptophan contaminant – Peak X >- was responsible for a number of deaths in the late 1980s, and >much, ongoing, suffering by the thousands affected by this >substance. Peak-X has also been found in both naturally derived >and chemically synthesised 5-HTP.

But this is very rare! 5-HTP is widely used aound the world as an antidepressant, and this "Peak-X" contaminant has not caused any problems that I have heard of. Again, you are implying there is a significant risk here, when the risk is really very low. >Many users have also been advised to consume lots of fluids to >combat the hypothermia and dehydration that Ecstasy may produce.

Indeed, about 25% of the few deaths attributed to MDMA were caused by drinking too much water, leading to hyponatremia (low sodium levels). People dancing or otherwise sweating on MDMA should add some salt to their water, or eat some salty snacks. (A sports drink such as Gatorade is even better.) >Often they are given drinks containing the sugar substitute >Aspartame. This is derived from the amino acid Phenylalanine – a >precursor of the neurotransmitters Dopamine and Noradrenaline >(Norepinephrin). As increased Dopamine expression appears to be >necessary to provoke oxidation injury to neurons,[14] this is >probably not a wise move, although more research is required.

It’s doubtful aspartame ingestion leads to excess dopamine effects. The effects of increased dopamine actions are pretty obvious, and aspartame is very widely used. >Antidepressants (ADs) can affect the body’s response to Ecstasy / >MDMA. Mixing some ADs and MDMA (and indeed most of the >hallucinogens) is very risky and some combinations can be fatal.

It depends on the class of AD. MAOI AD’s can be very dangerous if combined with MDMA. SSRI’s tend to only block the effects, though they probably also reduce the neurotoxicity. Though there has been some speculation that taking MDMA while on an SSRI could lead to enough excess serotonin to cause serotonin syndrome, in practice this does not appear to be a real problem, at least using rational levels of MDMA. There’s more on the problems of AD’s and psychedelics at: http://www.erowid.org/chemicals/maois/maois_info4.shtml You really need to learn to separate the real problems that a significant number of MDMA users are probably getting (axon loss and memory problems at higher doses and frequencies) from random theories and rare effects. My apologies for not having time to post more references. Mind Books offers publications about psychedelics;

Response:

Question:

I have a history of becoming hypomanic in response to SSRIs – even at quite low dosage levels.  I tried both Luvox and Celexa and both created severe irritability within a few weeks. I am now taking Lacmictal and this works pretty well for me. I also have Fibromyalgia and have recently had a very bad flare-up which is pretty bad.   My doctor suggested I try SAMe for the fibromyalgia and I have heard that it sometimes really does help.  However, I am terrified of becoming hypomanic again. Does anyone know whether SAMe tends to produce hypomania in people who react that way to SSRIs? TIA Louise

Response:

Hi I have a history of becoming hypomanic in response to SSRIs – even at quite low dosage levels.  I tried both Luvox and Celexa and both created severe irritability within a few weeks. I am now taking Lacmictal and this works pretty well for me. I also have Fibromyalgia and have recently had a very bad flare-up which is pretty bad.   My doctor suggested I try SAMe for the fibromyalgia and I have heard that it sometimes really does help.  However, I am terrified of becoming hypomanic again. Does anyone know whether SAMe tends to produce hypomania in people who react that way to SSRIs? TIA Louise

Response:

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> SAMe does have mild antidepressant properties. And anything that has > antidepressant properties has potential to induce mania or hypomania in > susceptible individuals (bipolar people). So the probable answer to your > question is yes, SAMe probably does have some potential to induce hypomania. > However keep in mind that SAMe is a rather weak OTC supplement and packs > nowhere near the punch of the SSRIs. So its unlikely any hypomania you got > would be of any lasting significance. > You could take your docs advice and try SAMe. Its probably a good idea to try > it. Another thing I know they use for fibromyalgia is thyroid hormone > supplements, even in people who are not hypothyroid. I believe they use T3 > supplements (Cytomel) in some patients with Fibromyalgia. > Lamictal is a good drug, its an anticonvulsant that has a good side effect > profile and is very safe to take. It has some antidepressant properties in > itself. > Eric > Steroids caused my depression…prednisone should be used conservatively > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FactsAndFallaciesOfDepression > MIBS (Minimally Invasive Brain Stimulation) > http://www.musc.edu/psychiatry/fnrd/tms.htm

Thanks for the info.  I’m also going to ask my Rheumatologist about the Cytomel Louise

Response:

Good answer, Eric.

Response:

louise, there have been alot of positive results with a LOW CARB DIET for folks with fibromyalgia!       ALT.SUPPORT.DIET.LOW-CARB       http://people.we.mediaone.net/agross/asdlc/index.htm — read and post daily! rosie http://www.geocities.com/barrettetc/rosie.html

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> I have a history of becoming hypomanic in response to SSRIs – even at > quite low dosage levels.  I tried both Luvox and Celexa and both created > severe irritability within a few weeks. > I am now taking Lacmictal and this works pretty well for me. > I also have Fibromyalgia and have recently had a very bad flare-up which > is pretty bad. > My doctor suggested I try SAMe for the fibromyalgia and I have heard that > it sometimes really does help.  However, I am terrified of becoming > hypomanic again. > Does anyone know whether SAMe tends to produce hypomania in people who > react that way to SSRIs? > TIA > Louise

Response: