SSRIs

Question:

> I’m going to add welbutrin to a low dose of tofranil.  Will I be gaining > weight? > Suzy

You will grow hair on your feets! Get all hyped up – and then they put you on SSRIs and you become all messed up!

Response:

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text ->> I’m going to add wellbutrin to a low dose of tofranil.  Will I be gaining >> weight? >> Suey >You will grow hair on your feats! >Get all hyped up – and then they put you on SSRIs and you become all messed >up! > No, she’ll just have seizures..

Yes… like my ex-wife and now a *documented* Child abuser and psychiatrist, Ingrid Eve Runden, MD. > Seriously though yes you may lose weight on Wellbutrin.

Runden did.. > Another > reason that I am upset with my current pdoc is that Anorexia can be > caused or set off by Wellbutrin and Wellbutrin should not be given to > anorexics.

You should have told that to Psychiatrist Runden. > I was quickly approaching anorexia and my pdoc was aware of that when > he prescribed Wellbutrin for me. > To make matters worse he had me take Wellbutrin for over a year and I > would still be on it if he had his way.  The new pdoc that I had a > consultation with last week and the majority of pdocs feel that > someone with bipolar should not take an anti depressants for more than > a few weeks!

Hmm… was Runden bipolar? Nope.. not at first anyway.. Just "depressed" – she started on Wellbutrin, then "did the rounds" of everything…. Standard… I should post the "family medical history" and ALL THE SCRIPTS "for the family" – nearly ALL OF IT WAS HER… > u

http://groups.google.com/groups?hl=en&lr=&safe=off&ic=1&th=77c90bd999… seekd=947843002#947843002

Response:

grow up you sorry ass excuse for a human – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> I’m going to add welbutrin to a low dose of tofranil.  Will I be gaining > weight? > Suzy > You will grow hair on your feets! > Get all hyped up – and then they put you on SSRIs and you become all messed > up!

Response:

Question:

Has anyone had any success trying high doses of folate/folic acid as a supplement to Prozac/other SSRIs? FOLIC ACID SUPPLEMENTS FOR DEPRESSION A November 2000 study shows that folic acid supplements are a simple way to greatly improving the antidepressant action of fluoxetine (Prozac) and probably other antidepressants. In addition to improving the effectiveness of fluoxetine, folic acid supplements also greatly reduced the side effects of fluoxetine. This study concludes that folic acid levels used should be sufficient to decrease plasma homocysteine and that men require a higher dose of folic acid to achieve this than do women. Coppen & Bailey (2000) Enhancement of the antidepressant action of fluoxetine by folic acid: a randomized, placebo controlled trial. Journal of Affective Disorders 60, p121-130

Response:

>Has anyone had any success trying high doses of folate/folic acid as a >supplement to Prozac/other SSRIs?

I haven’t used them for depression, but my folate level (along with B12) is one of the things that my pdoc screened for the first time he saw me.  And when my depression recently got worse again, he got another level, because he said that anticonvulsants, which I take for bipolar, often decrease folate levels.  However, mine was fine.  But I do take B-complex. Emily – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text ->FOLIC ACID SUPPLEMENTS FOR DEPRESSION >A November 2000 study shows that folic acid supplements are a simple way to >greatly improving the antidepressant action of fluoxetine (Prozac) and >probably other antidepressants. In addition to improving the effectiveness >of fluoxetine, folic acid supplements also greatly reduced the side effects >of fluoxetine. This study concludes that folic acid levels used should be >sufficient to decrease plasma homocysteine and that men require a higher >dose of folic acid to achieve this than do women. >Coppen & Bailey (2000) Enhancement of the antidepressant action of >fluoxetine by folic acid: a randomized, placebo controlled trial. Journal of >Affective Disorders 60, p121-130

Response:

I’m not familiar with use of folic acid.  But I do know women respond better to different B vitamins than men do.  B-6 is one that most women find very effective. Christina

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> Has anyone had any success trying high doses of folate/folic acid as a > supplement to Prozac/other SSRIs? > FOLIC ACID SUPPLEMENTS FOR DEPRESSION > A November 2000 study shows that folic acid supplements are a simple way to > greatly improving the antidepressant action of fluoxetine (Prozac) and > probably other antidepressants. In addition to improving the effectiveness > of fluoxetine, folic acid supplements also greatly reduced the side effects > of fluoxetine. This study concludes that folic acid levels used should be > sufficient to decrease plasma homocysteine and that men require a higher > dose of folic acid to achieve this than do women. > Coppen & Bailey (2000) Enhancement of the antidepressant action of > fluoxetine by folic acid: a randomized, placebo controlled trial. Journal of > Affective Disorders 60, p121-130

Response:

mental case! Who has as she put it, "a delicate mental condition!" Do not listen to this piece of shit! She’s a mental case! All fucked up in the head! A piece of shit! – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> I’m not familiar with use of folic acid.  But I do know women respond better > to different B vitamins than men do.  B-6 is one that most women find very > effective. > Christina > Has anyone had any success trying high doses of folate/folic acid as a > supplement to Prozac/other SSRIs? > FOLIC ACID SUPPLEMENTS FOR DEPRESSION > A November 2000 study shows that folic acid supplements are a simple way > to > greatly improving the antidepressant action of fluoxetine (Prozac) and > probably other antidepressants. In addition to improving the effectiveness > of fluoxetine, folic acid supplements also greatly reduced the side > effects > of fluoxetine. This study concludes that folic acid levels used should be > sufficient to decrease plasma homocysteine and that men require a higher > dose of folic acid to achieve this than do women. > Coppen & Bailey (2000) Enhancement of the antidepressant action of > fluoxetine by folic acid: a randomized, placebo controlled trial. Journal > of > Affective Disorders 60, p121-130

Response:

I don’t know the ideal dose of folate supplementation.  It looks like 500 microgram of folate per day is sufficient for most women, according to the trial (below), with men requiring more. Folate is usually sold by pharmacists in tablets of around 500 microgram — typically taken once daily by women (for pregnancy/menstruation).  But it’s also sold by pharmacies in 5 milligram tablets, which is 10X that dose. There are no adverse effects from taking a high dose of folate in a healthy person — it’s a water-soluble vitamin. So men could probably do with taking that sort of dose (5 mg) daily. Enhancement of the antidepressant action of fluoxetine by folic acid: a randomised, placebo controlled trial. Coppen A, Bailey J MRC Neuropsychiatry Laboratory, West Park Hospital, KT19 8PB, Surrey, Epsom, UK. BACKGROUND: A consistent finding in major depression has been a low plasma and red cell folate which has also been linked to poor response to antidepressants. The present investigation was designed to investigate whether the co-administration of folic acid would enhance the antidepressant action of fluoxetine. METHODS: 127 patients were randomly assigned to receive either 500 microg folic acid or an identical looking placebo in addition to 20 mg fluoxetine daily. All patients met the DSM-III-R criteria for major depression and had a baseline Hamilton Rating Scale (17 item version) score for depression of 20 or more. Baseline and 10-week estimations of plasma folate and homocysteine were carried out. RESULTS: Patients receiving folate showed a significant increase in plasma folate.This was less in men than in women. Plasma homocysteine was significantly decreased in women by 20.6%, but there was no significant change in men. Overall there was a significantly greater improvement in the fluoxetine plus folic acid group. This was confined to women where the mean Hamilton Rating Scale score on completion was 6.8 (S.D. 4. 1) in the fluoxetine plus folate group, as compared to 11.7 (S.D. 6. 7) in the fluoxetine plus placebo group (P<0.001).A percentage of 93. 9 of women, who received the folic acid supplement, showed a good response (>50% reduction in score) as compared to 61.1% of women who received placebo supplement (P<0.005). Eight (12.9%) patients in the fluoxetine plus folic acid group reported symptoms possibly or probably related to medication, whereas in the fluoxetine plus placebo group 19 (29.7%) patients reported such symptoms (P<0.05). LIMITATIONS AND CONCLUSIONS: Folic acid is a simple method of greatly improving the antidepressant action of fluoxetine and probably other antidepressants. Folic acid should be given in doses sufficient to decrease plasma homocysteine. Men require a higher dose of folic acid to achieve this than women, but more work is required to ascertain the optimum dose of folic acid. J Affective Disorders 2000 Nov;60(2):121-30

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> I used to take a B-100 capsule everyday and when I did that I noticed I would > get a very mildly better antidepressant response from my meds. It was nothing > spectacular but I noticed a slight improvement. I never tried supplementing > with higher doses than that. > How much folate is needed for AD supplementation do you know? > Eric

Response:

> Folate is usually sold by pharmacists in tablets of around 500 microgram — > typically taken once daily by women (for pregnancy/menstruation).  But it’s > So men could probably do with taking that sort of dose (5 mg) daily. > Enhancement of the antidepressant action of fluoxetine by folic acid: a > randomised, placebo controlled trial.

Yeah the ideal dose of folate is a mystery to me too.  I’d like to thank whoever posted the original reference.  I chow down 10 or more 400 mcg folates whenever I remember; I’d like to take a higher dose supplement but for some reason the federal legislature thought they could be better health care providers than doctors and limited pill forms to that amount. Andy

Response:

>Yeah the ideal dose of folate is a mystery to me too.  I’d like to thank >whoever posted the original reference.  I chow down 10 or more 400 mcg >folates whenever I remember; I’d like to take a higher dose supplement but >for some reason the federal legislature thought they could be better >health care providers than doctors and limited pill forms to that amount.

Andy, The amount you’re taking is a huge overdose and can be harmful! Please, cut it down to 1000 or maybe 1500 mcg at most. Here’s an abstract that should be of interest (emphasis added): Prog Neuropsychopharmacol Biol Psychiatry 1989;13(6):841-63 Folic acid and psychopathology. Young SN, Ghadirian AM Department of Psychiatry, McGill University, Montreal, Quebec, Canada. 1. The incidence of folic acid deficiency is high in patients with various psychiatric disorders including depression, dementia and schizophrenia. 2. In epileptics on anticonvulsants, folate deficiency often occurs because anticonvulsants inhibit folate absorption. In these patients folate deficiency is often associated with psychiatric symptoms. 3. In medical patients psychiatric symptoms occur more frequently, and in psychiatric patients symptoms are more severe, in those with folate deficiency than in those with normal levels. 4. Many open studies have demonstrated therapeutic effects of folate administration on psychiatric symptoms in folate deficient patients. 5. SEVERAL PLACEBO-CONTROLLED STUDIES HAVE NOT DEMONSTRATED THERAPEUTIC EFFECTS, POSSIBLY BECAUSE THE DOSES THEY USED (15-20 mg/day) ARE KNOW TO BE TOXIC AND TO CAUSE MENTAL SYMPTOMS. 6. Two placebo-controlled studies have demonstrated beneficial effects of folic acid administration, one in patients with a syndrome of psychiatric and neuropsychological changes associated with folate deficiency and the other in patients on long-term lithium therapy. In the latter study the dose was only 0.2 mg/day. 7. Folic acid deficiency is known to lower brain S-adenosylmethionine and 5-hydroxytryptamine. S-Adenosylmethionine, which has antidepressant properties, raises brain 5-hydroxytryptamine. Thus, depression associated with folate deficiency is probably related to low brain 5HT. 8. S-Adenosylmethionine is involved in many methylation reactions, including methylation of membrane phospholipids, which influences membrane properties. This may explain the wide variety of symptoms associated with folate deficiency. 9. Because the costs and risks associated with low doses of folic acid (up to 0.5 mg/day) are small, folic acid should be given as an adjunct in the treatment of patients with unipolar or bipolar affective disorders and anorexia, epileptics on anticonvulsants, geriatric patients with mental symptoms and patients with gastrointestinal disorders who exhibit psychiatric symptoms. 10. Although the majority of the patients listed above will probably not be helped by folic acid therapy, a significant minority are likely to have folate-responsive symptoms. good to "see" you <g>, -elizabeth

Response:

Some studies have shown that people who are nonresponsive to SSRIs, in particular, tend to improve with folate — that folate deficiency is what keeps them from responding to the ADs. As many as 2/5 of patients with major depression may be folate deficient (probably more like 1/4). Men appear to require higher doses than women. In general, around 500-1000 mcg is probably adequate for anyone with a folate deficiency. (That’s *micrograms*, not milligrams (the equivalent in mg is 0.5-1000 mg). Don’t take 5 mg of folic acid! It can be toxic.) I think most folate supplements you can get in drug stores over the counter are 400mcg (0.4mg); my dad takes a 1mg supplement by prescription (he has well-controlled heart disease, thanks to meds, surgery, dietary changes, and exercise). I don’t think it works terribly well except in people who are deficient in folate so you shouldn’t expect miracles if your folate levels are normal. BTW, this might be a first step in explaining the connection between depression and cardiovascular disease. That’s pretty cool. Here’s an abstract that explains a little about the current theories regarding folate and depression: Nutr Rev 1996 Dec;54(12):382-90 Folate, vitamin B12, and neuropsychiatric disorders. Bottiglieri T, Kimberly H. Courtwright and Joseph W. Summers Institute of Metabolic Disease, Baylor University Medical Center, Dallas, Texas, USA. Folate and vitamin B12 are required both in the methylation of homocysteine to methionine and in the synthesis of S-adenosylmethionine. S-adenosylmethionine is involved in numerous methylation reactions involving proteins, phospholipids, DNA, and neurotransmitter metabolism. Both folate and vitamin B12 deficiency may cause similar neurologic and psychiatric disturbances including depression, dementia, and a demyelinating myelopathy. A current theory proposes that a defect in methylation processes is central to the biochemical basis of the neuropsychiatry of these vitamin deficiencies. Folate deficiency may specifically affect central monoamine metabolism and aggravate depressive disorders. In addition, the neurotoxic effects of homocysteine may also play a role in the neurologic and psychiatric disturbances that are associated with folate and vitamin B12 deficiency. -elizabeth

Response:

>Don’t take 5 mg of folic acid! It can be toxic.

Folate 5 mg tablets should not be toxic to a healthy person.  The 5 mg tablets are sold over-the-counter in Australia.  It is a water-soluble, B vitamin. However, folate interacts with the trimethoprim/sulphonamide antibacterials, some anticonvulsants,  sulphasalazine, methotrexate and other drugs.

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> Some studies have shown that people who are nonresponsive to SSRIs, in > particular, tend to improve with folate — that folate deficiency is what > keeps them from responding to the ADs. As many as 2/5 of patients with major > depression may be folate deficient (probably more like 1/4). > Men appear to require higher doses than women. In general, around 500-1000 > mcg is probably adequate for anyone with a folate deficiency. (That’s > *micrograms*, not milligrams (the equivalent in mg is 0.5-1000 mg). Don’t > take 5 mg of folic acid! It can be toxic.) > I think most folate supplements you can get in drug stores over the counter > are 400mcg (0.4mg); my dad takes a 1mg supplement by prescription (he has > well-controlled heart disease, thanks to meds, surgery, dietary changes, and > exercise). > I don’t think it works terribly well except in people who are deficient in > folate so you shouldn’t expect miracles if your folate levels are normal. > BTW, this might be a first step in explaining the connection between > depression and cardiovascular disease. That’s pretty cool. > Here’s an abstract that explains a little about the current theories > regarding folate and depression: > Nutr Rev 1996 Dec;54(12):382-90 > Folate, vitamin B12, and neuropsychiatric disorders. > Bottiglieri T, Kimberly H. > Courtwright and Joseph W. Summers Institute of Metabolic Disease, Baylor > University Medical Center, Dallas, Texas, USA. > Folate and vitamin B12 are required both in the methylation of homocysteine > to methionine and in the synthesis of S-adenosylmethionine. > S-adenosylmethionine is involved in numerous methylation reactions involving > proteins, phospholipids, DNA, and neurotransmitter metabolism. Both folate > and vitamin B12 deficiency may cause similar neurologic and psychiatric > disturbances including depression, dementia, and a demyelinating myelopathy. > A current theory proposes that a defect in methylation processes is central > to the biochemical basis of the neuropsychiatry of these vitamin > deficiencies. Folate deficiency may specifically affect central monoamine > metabolism and aggravate depressive disorders. In addition, the neurotoxic > effects of homocysteine may also play a role in the neurologic and > psychiatric disturbances that are associated with folate and vitamin B12 > deficiency. > -elizabeth

Response:

> Andy, > The amount you’re taking is a huge overdose and can be harmful! Please, cut > it down to 1000 or maybe 1500 mcg at most. Here’s an abstract that should be > of interest (emphasis added): > Prog Neuropsychopharmacol Biol Psychiatry 1989;13(6):841-63 > Folic acid and psychopathology. > Young SN, Ghadirian AM > Department of Psychiatry, McGill University, Montreal, Quebec, Canada. > patients. 5. SEVERAL PLACEBO-CONTROLLED STUDIES HAVE NOT DEMONSTRATED > THERAPEUTIC EFFECTS, POSSIBLY BECAUSE THE DOSES THEY USED (15-20 mg/day) ARE > KNOW TO BE TOXIC AND TO CAUSE MENTAL SYMPTOMS. 6. Two placebo-controlled

Elizabeth, Thanks for taking the time to point this out to me.  I had no idea and will cut the dose down to 2X 400mcg a day.  I hope all is well. Andy

Response:

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> Andy, > The amount you’re taking is a huge overdose and can be harmful! Please, cut > it down to 1000 or maybe 1500 mcg at most. Here’s an abstract that should be > of interest (emphasis added): > Prog Neuropsychopharmacol Biol Psychiatry 1989;13(6):841-63 > Folic acid and psychopathology. > Young SN, Ghadirian AM > Department of Psychiatry, McGill University, Montreal, Quebec, Canada. > patients. 5. SEVERAL PLACEBO-CONTROLLED STUDIES HAVE NOT DEMONSTRATED > THERAPEUTIC EFFECTS, POSSIBLY BECAUSE THE DOSES THEY USED (15-20 mg/day) ARE > KNOW TO BE TOXIC AND TO CAUSE MENTAL SYMPTOMS. 6. Two placebo-controlled > Elizabeth, > Thanks for taking the time to point this out to me.  I had no idea and > will cut the dose down to 2X 400mcg a day.  I hope all is well. > Andy

Response:

The reference below says that 15-20 mg folate/folic acid is toxic.  But not 5 mg, or 10 X 400 micrograms. I have the label of the over-the-counter folic acid 5 mg tablets from Sigma Pharmaceuticals, 1408 Centre Rd, Clayton, Vic 3168, Australia — a reputable manufacturer of ethical pharmaceuticals: "Dose: Take one tablet daily or as directed by physician." There is a rigorous Poisons Act in Australia.  If folic acid was toxic at this sort of dose, it would certainly not be available in pharmacies over-the-counter, to say the least. The B-vitamins (including folate) are water-soluble.  It is generally the fat-soluble vitamins (eg A and D) that can have serious toxicity problems. The trial below states that: "Folic acid should be given in doses sufficient to decrease plasma homocysteine. Men require a higher dose of folic acid to achieve this than women, but more work is required to ascertain the optimum dose of folic acid."  The dose given in the trial was 500 microgram daily, but this was insufficient for most men in the study.  A significantly higher dose may be required. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> Elizabeth, > Thanks for taking the time to point this out to me.  I had no idea and > will cut the dose down to 2X 400mcg a day.  I hope all is well. > Andy > Andy, > The amount you’re taking is a huge overdose and can be harmful! Please, cut > it down to 1000 or maybe 1500 mcg at most. Here’s an abstract that should be > of interest (emphasis added): > Prog Neuropsychopharmacol Biol Psychiatry 1989;13(6):841-63 > Folic acid and psychopathology. > Young SN, Ghadirian AM > Department of Psychiatry, McGill University, Montreal, Quebec, Canada. > patients. 5. SEVERAL PLACEBO-CONTROLLED STUDIES HAVE NOT DEMONSTRATED > THERAPEUTIC EFFECTS, POSSIBLY BECAUSE THE DOSES THEY USED (15-20 mg/day) ARE > KNOW TO BE TOXIC AND TO CAUSE MENTAL SYMPTOMS. 6. Two placebo-controlled

Enhancement of the antidepressant action of fluoxetine by folic acid: a randomised, placebo controlled trial. Coppen A, Bailey J MRC Neuropsychiatry Laboratory, West Park Hospital, KT19 8PB, Surrey, Epsom, UK. BACKGROUND: A consistent finding in major depression has been a low plasma and red cell folate which has also been linked to poor response to antidepressants. The present investigation was designed to investigate whether the co-administration of folic acid would enhance the antidepressant action of fluoxetine. METHODS: 127 patients were randomly assigned to receive either 500 microg folic acid or an identical looking placebo in addition to 20 mg fluoxetine daily. All patients met the DSM-III-R criteria for major depression and had a baseline Hamilton Rating Scale (17 item version) score for depression of 20 or more. Baseline and 10-week estimations of plasma folate and homocysteine were carried out. RESULTS: Patients receiving folate showed a significant increase in plasma folate.This was less in men than in women. Plasma homocysteine was significantly decreased in women by 20.6%, but there was no significant change in men. Overall there was a significantly greater improvement in the fluoxetine plus folic acid group. This was confined to women where the mean Hamilton Rating Scale score on completion was 6.8 (S.D. 4. 1) in the fluoxetine plus folate group, as compared to 11.7 (S.D. 6. 7) in the fluoxetine plus placebo group (P<0.001).A percentage of 93. 9 of women, who received the folic acid supplement, showed a good response (>50% reduction in score) as compared to 61.1% of women who received placebo supplement (P<0.005). Eight (12.9%) patients in the fluoxetine plus folic acid group reported symptoms possibly or probably related to medication, whereas in the fluoxetine plus placebo group 19 (29.7%) patients reported such symptoms (P<0.05). LIMITATIONS AND CONCLUSIONS: Folic acid is a simple method of greatly improving the antidepressant action of fluoxetine and probably other antidepressants. Folic acid should be given in doses sufficient to decrease plasma homocysteine. Men require a higher dose of folic acid to achieve this than women, but more work is required to ascertain the optimum dose of folic acid. J Affective Disorders 2000 Nov;60(2):121-30

Response:

Question:

Well, after a mere week on SEROQUEL, I am now free of meds due to the awful side effects and added psychosis and discombobulation seroquel gave me; on a low dosage of 75mg. I am starting at a new school in a week and a half and I cannot be playing trial and error with medications while I am in school.  I’m really nervous because I don’t need to be going up and down while I am attempting to learn…it’s a tech art school; 45 hours a week/14 months. I’ve been on quite a few psych meds (paxil, pamelor, zoloft, wellbutrin, serzone, effexor) over the past three years and have had negative affects with all…one even landed me in the emergency room. Has anyone else’s body simply rejected the medications?  Anyone know what could be the cause of medicines just NOT working with me? Thanks Leonessa

Response:

>I printed out your email because it gave me a few things to think about.  I >am going to try to solve this ASAP because I can’t live like this.

Don’t give up hope. I hope things work out for you. For email replies remove the **** from my email address.

Response:

Leonessa, I am ultra-sensitive to medications. I had a year or so of experimentation hell. Ive had liver damage (that was the worst one), rashes, drug-induced panic attacks, Tremor, lots and lots of ‘discombobulation’ (one of my favorite words), extreme weight loss, extreme hair loss, flu-like symptoms…and more. Usually I get the side effects that are mentioned as "rare" affecting like less than 1%. But…I too was struggling to get through school, as a graduate student. I HAD to find something to work because I simply couldnt function in either the extreme depression, or mania. There never seemed to be a middle ground. Luckily I have a good pdoc who I respect and trust. Weve slowly ruled things out. I totally agree with Mark’s post ( what an excellent post!)… in science, ruling things out is as important as proving a hypothesis. It DOES take extreme perserverence, and the faith that eventually you WILL find the "one(s) that works". EVERYBODY is different. Im finally stabile (pretty much, kinda, sorta…) on low doses of 3 mood stabilizers (no antidepressants). although…because of my less-than-sterling expeience with medications, I am always skeptical, thinking that I may be feeling normal, but it might be due to just being part of the whole cycling process. Just remember every time a drug fails, you move that much closer to solving the puzzle. Some people hit it right away. Others, like those of us with sensitivities, it takes an agonizingly long time. Hang in there! And I wish you luck with school, and I hope that you dont de-stabilize under the stress.(stress can do that!!!!!!) If you feel yourself slipping (or escalating) I advise you to not wait until it gets bad, the sooner you see your doctor, the better chance you have of becoming extreme. (at least thats my own experience). Sara – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – > Well, after a mere week on SEROQUEL, I am now free of meds due to the awful > side effects and added psychosis and discombobulation seroquel gave me; on a > low dosage of 75mg. > I am starting at a new school in a week and a half and I cannot be playing > trial and error with medications while I am in school.  I’m really nervous > because I don’t need to be going up and down while I am attempting to > learn…it’s a tech art school; 45 hours a week/14 months. > I’ve been on quite a few psych meds (paxil, pamelor, zoloft, wellbutrin, > serzone, effexor) over the past three years and have had negative affects > with all…one even landed me in the emergency room. > Has anyone else’s body simply rejected the medications?  Anyone know what > could be the cause of medicines just NOT working with me? > Thanks > Leonessa

Response:

>Yup!  I’ve had several different types of medication and all I’ve ever >had are the side effects.  I get the impression my psychiatrist >doesn’t actually believe me sometimes.  I guess we’re just lucky!

Mine thought my side effects were psychosomatic, from reading to much stuff on the internet. I’m thinking of changing psychiatrists. For email replies remove the **** from my email address.

Response:

I’ve had psychiatrists not believe me too. "I’m not eating at all and I think I’m becoming malnourished." "That’s common, let’s up the dosage a little…" > leonessa viola writes: > Has anyone else’s body simply rejected the medications?  Anyone know > what could be the cause of medicines just NOT working with me? > Yup!  I’ve had several different types of medication and all I’ve ever > had are the side effects.  I get the impression my psychiatrist > doesn’t actually believe me sometimes.  I guess we’re just lucky! > — > Shell > http://www.kaidea.freeserve.co.uk/yumorbum.html

Response:

Hey Mark, thanks for your response… > Did they all induce mania, or just one? Were the others just ineffective?

Well, some of them induced anxiety/mania…others made me MORE depressed..after taking one I became anorexic…and some made me physically ill. > Did you stay on each one for a substantial period of time?

Except for the ones that caused me to be unable to function, I was on a lot of these for months. > Have you taken other medications specifically for your emotional > difficulties?  Why is there no Mood Stabilizer listed?

I mood stabilizer would be like lithium, huh?  I guess I was never put on a stabilizer because I was originally diagnosed with unipolar and this was my first medication I’ve been on since my new diagnosis.  I probably should take a mood stabilizer, because if my moods were equalized, I’d imagine my psychosis wouldn’t be as bad. I printed out your email because it gave me a few things to think about.  I am going to try to solve this ASAP because I can’t live like this. Thanks so much. Leonessa

Response:

>   I’m sorry that you’ve had difficulty with your med. regiment. > I don’t have the answer, but I was just reminded of the unrelenting > persistence of Thomas Edison, one of the greatest men throughout > history. To Mr. Edison, he truly felt that every failure was a > positive step in the right direction, since it revealed one more > avenue that was eliminated on the road to success. To quote > Mr. Edison, he said:

snipped… Just had to say this is an excellent and well thought out reply Mark. Leonessa, I cannot take any SSRIs, TCAs, Mood Stablizers (MS)…the first 2 classes trigger dysphoria in me and the MS worsen the symptoms of my Multiple Sclerosis. I can tolerate Seroquel and Klonopin. I am taking Remeron whuch is a tetracyclic AD and I fear that it is also triggering dysphoria. I see my pdoc tomorrow. I plan to talk with him about Vagus Nerve Stimulation…alarge scaled study will be underway shortly and I live in Chapel Hill which has the University of North Carolina and nearby Duke University is only 9 miles away. I am hoping that one of the studies will be done here . If so, I plan to volunteer in a heartbeat!!! Persistence and patience…I know it is easier said then done. Best of luck to you…please do not give up hope. Peace, Lynda

Response:

leonessa viola writes: > Has anyone else’s body simply rejected the medications?  Anyone know > what could be the cause of medicines just NOT working with me?

Yup!  I’ve had several different types of medication and all I’ve ever had are the side effects.  I get the impression my psychiatrist doesn’t actually believe me sometimes.  I guess we’re just lucky! — Shell http://www.kaidea.freeserve.co.uk/yumorbum.html

Response:

Hi Leonessa…   I’m sorry that you’ve had difficulty with your med. regiment. I don’t have the answer, but I was just reminded of the unrelenting persistence of Thomas Edison, one of the greatest men throughout history. To Mr. Edison, he truly felt that every failure was a positive step in the right direction, since it revealed one more avenue that was eliminated on the road to success. To quote Mr. Edison, he said:  "I Speak without exaggeration when I say I have constructed 3000 different theories in connection with the electric light, yet in only two cases did my experiments prove the truth of my theory." Thomas Edison You see Leonessa, Thomas Edison for sure changed the face of the world and society with his successful invention of the lightblub. But he also showed us how to persevere in the face of impossible odds. It has been said of Mr. Edison: "He led no armies into battle, he conquered no countries, and he enslaved no peoples…. Nonetheless, he exerted a degree of power the magnitude of which no warrior ever dreamed. His name still commands a respect as sweeping in scope and as world-wide as that of any other mortal – a devotion rooted deep in human gratitude and untainted by the bias of race, color, or politics." So I would say this Leonessa,…… you have tried Pamelor, Paxil,  Zoloft, Wellbutrin, Serzone, and Effexor, all antidepressants. One is a tricyclic, 2 are ssri’s, and 3 are unique compounds. None of them have worked. Obviously you are trying to eliminate depression with those. It sounds to me like you are unable to take antidepressants. Did they all induce mania, or just one? Were the others just ineffective? Did you stay on each one for a substantial period of time? If we have established that you cannot take antidepressants, then you are have now gained an important piece of information about the nature of your disorder. You also said that seroquel doesn’t work for you. It is an atypical antipsychotic. You say it actually *increased* your psychosis and confusion. Again, here we learn another piece of the puzzle. I am not a doctor, but if I were, I would think that the nature of your adverse reactions would be telling of the pathology involved. Have you taken other medications specifically for your emotional difficulties?  Why is there no Mood Stabilizer listed? All I can offer you, is encouragement to persist in this challenge to find the root cause(s) of your problem. You must take each roadblock as part of the answer, and continue to ask questions and document your efforts, so as to eventually be able to see the big picture. It is essential that you take the scientific approach, and a proactive stance in cooperation with a qualified doctor. Best wishes sweetie, Mark of the Forest

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> Well, after a mere week on SEROQUEL, I am now free of meds due to the awful > side effects and added psychosis and discombobulation seroquel gave me; on a > low dosage of 75mg. > I am starting at a new school in a week and a half and I cannot be playing > trial and error with medications while I am in school. I’m really nervous > because I don’t need to be going up and down while I am attempting to > learn…it’s a tech art school; 45 hours a week/14 months. > I’ve been on quite a few psych meds (paxil, pamelor, zoloft, wellbutrin, > serzone, effexor) over the past three years and have had negative affects > with all…one even landed me in the emergency room. > Has anyone else’s body simply rejected the medications?  Anyone know what > could be the cause of medicines just NOT working with me? > Thanks > Leonessa

Response:

Question:

Yeah, i’ve been following this with interest …    :-) i’ve been taking prozac for 6 yrs now    < Gronk !!! > M.S. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – >x-no-archive: yes > Web Page at: http://www.robertpo.com >Prozac is losing its patent protection, and it is starting to drum up >support for the New! Improved! Gets Clothes Whiter! Prozac by casting >aspersions on the original formulation.

Response:

>Yes I saw it Robert, and…..you can chat live with the >author  of "Prozac Backlash" at abc20/20 website after > the show, but, Im not sure of the exact url, sorry. >I almost posted this too.

I had those very same symptoms that the subjects described, the suicidal ideation the thoughts of cutting, God it’s horrible to consider that it was a damn side effect. My pdoc thought I was prone to suggestions too, hope she watched that! Web Page at:www.robertpo.com

Response:

Good post, Mark. But you really should give credit to McMan’s Newsletter wherefrom the material was derived (plagiarized???). — Deep – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> x-no-archive: yes > > Web Page at: http://www.robertpo.com > Prozac is losing its patent protection, and it is starting to drum up > support for the New! Improved! Gets Clothes Whiter! Prozac by casting > aspersions on the original formulation > Nihil, >   Here are the facts behind tonight’s show. > Mark > PROZAC MANIA – PART II > Paradox:  If you do the right thing and make your current product safer, > does this amount to an express admission that your original product was > found wanting?  Could you be held liable?  Could your behavior even be > construed as fraudulent? > This is the problem Eli Lilly, makers of Prozac (fluoxetine), may be facing. > The company is preparing to launch a new version of its blockbuster > antidepressant next year, under a license agreement with Boston-area > Sepracor, just as its 14-year patent is due to expire.  The original Prozac, > according to Eli Lilly, carries a number of risks.  In the words of the > manufacturer: > "Fluoxetine produces a state of inner restlessness (akathisia), which is one > of its more significant side effects … It is also known that in some > patients, use of fluoxetine is associated with severe anxiety leading to > intense violent suicidal thoughts and self mutilation …. In other patients > manic behavior follows treatment with fluoxetine." > All this is spelled out in Eli Lilly’s patent for its new version of the > drug.  According to the patent, the new Prozac will eliminate the side > effects of the old drug.  The drug maker filed for the patent in 1995 and it > was granted in January 1998.  For whatever reasons, Eli Lilly did not > broadcast the news. > A year later, the company was taken to court by a family who refused to > settle (see Newsletter2#18).  Bill Forsyth, a retiree living in Hawaii, had > been prescribed Prozac for his anxiety and depression, and was admitted to a > psychiatric hospital, where doctors continued giving him the drug.  Eleven > days later, he returned home and stabbed his wife of 37 years, then impaled > himself on a kitchen knife. > Despite the disclosure in court of documents showing that Eli Lilly had been > fully aware of Prozac’s side effects since the 1970s and 1980s and had been > active in the suppression of certain information, the jury decided that the > drug was not responsible for Bill Forsyth’s acts of violence.  Then again, > the jury knew nothing about Eli Lilly’s new patent.  According to the > Forsyth’s lawyer, Eli Lilly never revealed its license agreement to the > plaintiffs or the court.  So last week the Forsyths filed a federal lawsuit > accusing the drug maker of fraud. > Dr David Healy of the North Wales Department of Psychological Medicine at > the University of Wales, who testified as an expert witness at the Forsyth > trial, estimates that "probably 50,000 people have committed suicide on > Prozac since its launch, over and above the number who would have done so if > left untreated." > But an Eli Lilly spokesman maintains:  "There is no credible evidence that > establishes a causal link between Prozac and violent or suicidal behavior. > There is, to the contrary, scientific evidence showing that Prozac and > medicines like it actually protect against such behaviors." > No doubt, the company will have ample opportunity to defend that claim in > court. > For two media articles, please see:

http://www.spokane.net/news-story-body.asp?Date=060900&ID=s813090&cat=">clic > k here</a> > <a

href="http://www.spokane.net/news-story-body.asp?Date=060900&ID=s813090&cat= – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> .

Response:

I am very very very very sorry.  I slam stuff together and cut off the edges for neatness. Im not trying to imply that my team of scientists and reporters compiled all that. If I was, I would be bragging for weeks. It wasnt plagiarism in my mind, cause I wasnt trying to pass it off as new and origional work and deliberately not giving the author credit. I rushed and left some stuff on the bottom, but cut it off too early. Sorry. I guess I should be sure to give reference sources in the future. I will drink a glass of mustard and puke on my new shoes tonight for punishment. Anyone interested in subscribing to this fine newsletter which contains a variety of interesting bipolar related issues can do so by following the link below. It is called "McMann’s depression and bipolar weekly." The author is John McManamy. He does this solely for the purpose of helping others and it is free. It seems very up to date. And, I heard he is very handsome and a sharp dresser and can really dance. If you are not a subscriber, please sign up here: <http://www.suite101.com/splash.cfm/depression> <a href="http://www.suite101.com/splash.cfm/depression">click here</a>

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> Good post, Mark. But you really should give credit to McMan’s Newsletter > wherefrom the material was derived (plagiarized???). > — > Deep > > x-no-archive: yes > > > Web Page at: http://www.robertpo.com > > Prozac is losing its patent protection, and it is starting to drum up > > support for the New! Improved! Gets Clothes Whiter! Prozac by casting > > aspersions on the original formulation > Nihil, >   Here are the facts behind tonight’s show. > Mark > PROZAC MANIA – PART II > Paradox:  If you do the right thing and make your current product safer, > does this amount to an express admission that your original product was > found wanting?  Could you be held liable?  Could your behavior even be > construed as fraudulent? > This is the problem Eli Lilly, makers of Prozac (fluoxetine), may be > facing. > The company is preparing to launch a new version of its blockbuster > antidepressant next year, under a license agreement with Boston-area > Sepracor, just as its 14-year patent is due to expire.  The original > Prozac, > according to Eli Lilly, carries a number of risks.  In the words of the > manufacturer: > "Fluoxetine produces a state of inner restlessness (akathisia), which is > one > of its more significant side effects … It is also known that in some > patients, use of fluoxetine is associated with severe anxiety leading to > intense violent suicidal thoughts and self mutilation …. In other > patients > manic behavior follows treatment with fluoxetine." > All this is spelled out in Eli Lilly’s patent for its new version of the > drug.  According to the patent, the new Prozac will eliminate the side > effects of the old drug.  The drug maker filed for the patent in 1995 and > it > was granted in January 1998.  For whatever reasons, Eli Lilly did not > broadcast the news. > A year later, the company was taken to court by a family who refused to > settle (see Newsletter2#18).  Bill Forsyth, a retiree living in Hawaii, > had > been prescribed Prozac for his anxiety and depression, and was admitted to > a > psychiatric hospital, where doctors continued giving him the drug. Eleven > days later, he returned home and stabbed his wife of 37 years, then > impaled > himself on a kitchen knife. > Despite the disclosure in court of documents showing that Eli Lilly had > been > fully aware of Prozac’s side effects since the 1970s and 1980s and had > been > active in the suppression of certain information, the jury decided that > the > drug was not responsible for Bill Forsyth’s acts of violence.  Then again, > the jury knew nothing about Eli Lilly’s new patent.  According to the > Forsyth’s lawyer, Eli Lilly never revealed its license agreement to the > plaintiffs or the court.  So last week the Forsyths filed a federal > lawsuit > accusing the drug maker of fraud. > Dr David Healy of the North Wales Department of Psychological Medicine at > the University of Wales, who testified as an expert witness at the Forsyth > trial, estimates that "probably 50,000 people have committed suicide on > Prozac since its launch, over and above the number who would have done so > if > left untreated." > But an Eli Lilly spokesman maintains:  "There is no credible evidence that > establishes a causal link between Prozac and violent or suicidal behavior. > There is, to the contrary, scientific evidence showing that Prozac and > medicines like it actually protect against such behaviors." > No doubt, the company will have ample opportunity to defend that claim in > court. > For two media articles, please see:

http://www.spokane.net/news-story-body.asp?Date=060900&ID=s813090&cat=">clic > k here</a> > <a

href="http://www.spokane.net/news-story-body.asp?Date=060900&ID=s813090&cat= – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> .

Response:

Here’s the exact text from McMan’s Newsletter. — Deep > –This is the message header– > McMAN’S DEPRESSION AND BIPOLAR WEEKLY (June 14, 2000 Vol 2 No 21) > PROZAC MANIA – PART II > Paradox:  If you do the right thing and make your current product safer,

does this amount to an express admission that your original product was found wanting?  Could you be held liable?  Could your behavior even be construed as fraudulent? > This is the problem Eli Lilly, makers of Prozac (fluoxetine), may be

facing.  The company is preparing to launch a new version of its blockbuster antidepressant next year, under a license agreement with Boston-area Sepracor, just as its 14-year patent is due to expire.  The original Prozac, according to Eli Lilly, carries a number of risks.  In the words of the manufacturer: > "Fluoxetine produces a state of inner restlessness (akathisia), which is

one of its more significant side effects … It is also known that in some patients, use of fluoxetine is associated with severe anxiety leading to intense violent suicidal thoughts and self mutilation …. In other patients manic behavior follows treatment with fluoxetine." > All this is spelled out in Eli Lilly’s patent for its new version of the

drug.  According to the patent, the new Prozac will eliminate the side effects of the old drug.  The drug maker filed for the patent in 1995 and it was granted in January 1998.  For whatever reasons, Eli Lilly did not broadcast the news. > A year later, the company was taken to court by a family who refused to

settle (see Newsletter2#18).  Bill Forsyth, a retiree living in Hawaii, had been prescribed Prozac for his anxiety and depression, and was admitted to a psychiatric hospital, where doctors continued giving him the drug.  Eleven days later, he returned home and stabbed his wife of 37 years, then impaled himself on a kitchen knife. > Despite the disclosure in court of documents showing that Eli Lilly had

been  fully aware of Prozac’s side effects since the 1970s and 1980s and had been active in the suppression of certain information, the jury decided that the drug was not responsible for Bill Forsyth’s acts of violence.  Then again, the jury knew nothing about Eli Lilly’s new patent.  According to the Forsyth’s lawyer, Eli Lilly never revealed its license agreement to the plaintiffs or the court.  So last week the Forsyths filed a federal lawsuit accusing the drug maker of fraud. > Dr David Healy of the North Wales Department of Psychological Medicine at

the University of Wales, who testified as an expert witness at the Forsyth trial, estimates that "probably 50,000 people have committed suicide on Prozac since its launch, over and above the number who would have done so if left untreated." > But an Eli Lilly spokesman maintains:  "There is no credible evidence that

establishes a causal link between Prozac and violent or suicidal behavior. There is, to the contrary, scientific evidence showing that Prozac and medicines like it actually protect against such behaviors." > No doubt, the company will have ample opportunity to defend that claim in court. > For two media articles, please see:

http://www.spokane.net/news-story-body.asp?Date=060900&ID=s813090&cat=">clic k here</a> > <a

href="http://www.spokane.net/news-story-body.asp?Date=060900&ID=s813090&cat= > http://www.spokane.net/news-story-body.asp?Date=061100&ID=s813751&cat= > <a

href="http://www.spokane.net/news-story-body.asp?Date=061100&ID=s813751&cat= ">click here</a> > For Eli Lilly’s new patent, go to: > http://164.195.100.11/netahtml/srchnum.htm > <a href="http://164.195.100.11/netahtml/srchnum.htm">click here</a> > .. and enter "5,708,035" in the search field..

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> x-no-archive: yes > Good post, Mark. But you really should give credit to McMan’s Newsletter > wherefrom the material was derived (plagiarized???). > — > Deep > That is categorically NOT where_I_read the article. I believe that I > read the article while doing a search with > http://www.themedengine.com > …

Response:

You’re forgiven, if, for no other reason the literary beauty of your reply ) As to the low down on Prozac……. YES. This is exactly the point I have been trying to  make for some time now in the face of what I perceived as defensiveness or even ridicule. — Deep – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> The interesting thing is that for some people, Prozac is a very > effective medicine with no side effects. But as the program > and research has show, it can be devastating, leading to suicide > in quite a few instances, as well as tardive dyskinesia…destroying >  control of the motor nerves. There are instances of homicidal > violence, and it appears that Eli Lilly knew of this and covered > it up. > mark > x-no-archive: yes > > Good post, Mark. But you really should give credit to McMan’s Newsletter > > wherefrom the material was derived (plagiarized???). > > — > > Deep > That is categorically NOT where_I_read the article. I believe that I > read the article while doing a search with > http://www.themedengine.com > …

Response:

The interesting thing is that for some people, Prozac is a very effective medicine with no side effects. But as the program and research has show, it can be devastating, leading to suicide in quite a few instances, as well as tardive dyskinesia…destroying  control of the motor nerves. There are instances of homicidal violence, and it appears that Eli Lilly knew of this and covered it up. mark

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> x-no-archive: yes > Good post, Mark. But you really should give credit to McMan’s Newsletter > wherefrom the material was derived (plagiarized???). > — > Deep > That is categorically NOT where_I_read the article. I believe that I > read the article while doing a search with > http://www.themedengine.com > …

Response:

Web Page at: http://www.robertpo.com

Response:

> Web Page at: http://www.robertpo.com

Yes I saw it Robert, and…..you can chat live with the author  of "Prozac Backlash" at abc20/20 website after  the show, but, Im not sure of the exact url, sorry. I almost posted this too.

Response:

> x-no-archive: yes > Web Page at: http://www.robertpo.com > Prozac is losing its patent protection, and it is starting to drum up > support for the New! Improved! Gets Clothes Whiter! Prozac by casting > aspersions on the original formulation

Nihil,   Here are the facts behind tonight’s show. Mark PROZAC MANIA – PART II Paradox:  If you do the right thing and make your current product safer, does this amount to an express admission that your original product was found wanting?  Could you be held liable?  Could your behavior even be construed as fraudulent? This is the problem Eli Lilly, makers of Prozac (fluoxetine), may be facing. The company is preparing to launch a new version of its blockbuster antidepressant next year, under a license agreement with Boston-area Sepracor, just as its 14-year patent is due to expire.  The original Prozac, according to Eli Lilly, carries a number of risks.  In the words of the manufacturer: "Fluoxetine produces a state of inner restlessness (akathisia), which is one of its more significant side effects … It is also known that in some patients, use of fluoxetine is associated with severe anxiety leading to intense violent suicidal thoughts and self mutilation …. In other patients manic behavior follows treatment with fluoxetine." All this is spelled out in Eli Lilly’s patent for its new version of the drug.  According to the patent, the new Prozac will eliminate the side effects of the old drug.  The drug maker filed for the patent in 1995 and it was granted in January 1998.  For whatever reasons, Eli Lilly did not broadcast the news. A year later, the company was taken to court by a family who refused to settle (see Newsletter2#18).  Bill Forsyth, a retiree living in Hawaii, had been prescribed Prozac for his anxiety and depression, and was admitted to a psychiatric hospital, where doctors continued giving him the drug.  Eleven days later, he returned home and stabbed his wife of 37 years, then impaled himself on a kitchen knife. Despite the disclosure in court of documents showing that Eli Lilly had been fully aware of Prozac’s side effects since the 1970s and 1980s and had been active in the suppression of certain information, the jury decided that the drug was not responsible for Bill Forsyth’s acts of violence.  Then again, the jury knew nothing about Eli Lilly’s new patent.  According to the Forsyth’s lawyer, Eli Lilly never revealed its license agreement to the plaintiffs or the court.  So last week the Forsyths filed a federal lawsuit accusing the drug maker of fraud. Dr David Healy of the North Wales Department of Psychological Medicine at the University of Wales, who testified as an expert witness at the Forsyth trial, estimates that "probably 50,000 people have committed suicide on Prozac since its launch, over and above the number who would have done so if left untreated." But an Eli Lilly spokesman maintains:  "There is no credible evidence that establishes a causal link between Prozac and violent or suicidal behavior. There is, to the contrary, scientific evidence showing that Prozac and medicines like it actually protect against such behaviors." No doubt, the company will have ample opportunity to defend that claim in court. For two media articles, please see: http://www.spokane.net/news-story-body.asp?Date=060900&ID=s813090&cat=">clic k here</a> <a href="http://www.spokane.net/news-story-body.asp?Date=060900&ID=s813090&cat= .

Response:

Question:

Ralph, I explained it to my Pdoc as, "Every thing hits me three times harder." Mine too, has been triggered by events. Take care, — PBTrue

Response:

me too me too me too me too! — -judy **I can live my life without a man, but damn, my hand gets tired!** – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text ->I love bubble baths too but I certainly don’t do them often enough. I like mine >by candle light, how about you? >Kayann >Awwwww, yeahhhhh….

Response:

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text ->I saw my PDoc this evening, and I was trying to explain to him what I >thought was going on with my moods. He gave me the following >explanations: >I am Bi-Polar II. A Bi-Polar two is depressed most of the time with >infrequent (hypo)manic episodes. He said that my "guestiment" that I >have 1 or 2 hypo days every 6 weeks of depression is not unreasonable >for a BPII. He has asked me to keep a diary because he is interested >in documenting my cycles, especially the "sawtooth effect" (see below) >That which I thought was "mixed states", that is my ability to go from >low to high back to low in just a matter of hours, is what my PDoc >calls the "sawtooth effect". That I am not imagining it, I do go from >depressession to manic and back to depressed in a matter of hours, >even minutes. This "sawtooth" effect is the result of SSRIs on a  BPII >when the mood stablizer isn’t working perfectly. But he did explain >that it was spikes of extreme mood swings. >Thought you might be interested in hearing about that "sawtooth" >effect.      Ralph

Ack! Ack! Sounds familiar. Duringr my first (only) hospitilisation, I was put on carbomarzipine (sp?) which sorta worked for me, but…. But it ruined my stamina (no energy), gave me bouts of severe dizzyness (falling over like), and something similar to the above. Actually what happened was several times a day I would spike to manic, for about 10-15 minuets and then down to severe depression for a similar amount of time. The doc’s and nurses didn’t really take much notice. So anyway, they release me to my mothers house for christmass day, with my sister and (then) girlfriend. At about 3pm I jump to real bad mania, you know, trying to put a chair through a window, storming off into a snow storm etc, to viscious depression. My sister had to hide the knives while my mother and girlfriend held me. Then the men in white coats took me back to hospital. After this they took my complaints a little more seriously, and changed my meds. This is my first post here, hope it’s taken well.         -Simon Marks ICQ #36899670 "What do I want?" He says "I want to ascend the heavens on wings of fire. I want to burn in the minds of all those who hear of me. I want to affect everyone who comes into contact with me.  I want to be remembered forever by those whose  lives I touch. I want to inspire those as those have inspired me. I want to make a difference. I want all that and more. But seeing as I’ll probably never get all that, I’ll settle for another pint of Hoegarden."  - Becca, Quoting Dom. From the unpublished (and unfinished) play "Failed Under Continuous Testing" By, er me.

Response:

Hi Simon, Welcome to our ngs! We are glad you have posted with us. I have sent you a copy of the FAQs for the ngs. Peace, Lynda — Lynda

Response:

Hmmm…I kinda do the same myself I think, but how do I tell if mine is more situational i.e., a particular situation depressing me, but then I let go of it and get happy again…what do you think? -judy – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – >I saw my PDoc this evening, and I was trying to explain to him what I >thought was going on with my moods. He gave me the following >explanations: >I am Bi-Polar II. A Bi-Polar two is depressed most of the time with >infrequent (hypo)manic episodes. He said that my "guestiment" that I >have 1 or 2 hypo days every 6 weeks of depression is not unreasonable >for a BPII. He has asked me to keep a diary because he is interested >in documenting my cycles, especially the "sawtooth effect" (see below) >That which I thought was "mixed states", that is my ability to go from >low to high back to low in just a matter of hours, is what my PDoc >calls the "sawtooth effect". That I am not imagining it, I do go from >depressession to manic and back to depressed in a matter of hours, >even minutes. This "sawtooth" effect is the result of SSRIs on a  BPII >when the mood stablizer isn’t working perfectly. But he did explain >that it was spikes of extreme mood swings. >Thought you might be interested in hearing about that "sawtooth" >effect.      Ralph

Response:

me too, me too, me too, me too! — -judy **I can live my life without a man, but damn, my hand gets tired!** – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – >I love bubble baths too but I certainly don’t do them often enough. I like mine >by candle light, how about you? >Kayann > >I hadn’t heard it called that to my knowledge though I  most certainly > >have felt it. I don’t take any anti-depressants. I had too many headaches > >and they could make me terribly irritable. My son doesn’t take them > >anymore either. > >I think I’m going to start tracking my moods too. I just feel like there > >could be more to my life. I wasn’t too happy to hear you say 1 or 2 > >hypomanic days every six weeks. I thought I was feeling normal every now > >and then and could get things done and that FINALLY I  was getting better. > >You didn’t get me down btw I was already here. I awoke to a  vicious > >migraine at 6:30 am and I still feel nowhere near normal or pain free. > >Another wasted day. > >kayann > I’m so sorry you are feeling bad, sweet-sweet angel Kayann. > I wish there was something I could do. > Go soak in a bubble bath, please. > I’m going to.  Sounds silly, but it helps. > Know this: you are loved. > Gina

Response:

I saw my PDoc this evening, and I was trying to explain to him what I thought was going on with my moods. He gave me the following explanations: I am Bi-Polar II. A Bi-Polar two is depressed most of the time with infrequent (hypo)manic episodes. He said that my "guestiment" that I have 1 or 2 hypo days every 6 weeks of depression is not unreasonable for a BPII. He has asked me to keep a diary because he is interested in documenting my cycles, especially the "sawtooth effect" (see below) That which I thought was "mixed states", that is my ability to go from low to high back to low in just a matter of hours, is what my PDoc calls the "sawtooth effect". That I am not imagining it, I do go from depressession to manic and back to depressed in a matter of hours, even minutes. This "sawtooth" effect is the result of SSRIs on a  BPII when the mood stablizer isn’t working perfectly. But he did explain that it was spikes of extreme mood swings. Thought you might be interested in hearing about that "sawtooth" effect.      Ralph

Response:

I hadn’t heard it called that to my knowledge though I  most certainly have felt it. I don’t take any anti-depressants. I had too many headaches and they could make me terribly irritable. My son doesn’t take them anymore either. I think I’m going to start tracking my moods too. I just feel like there could be more to my life. I wasn’t too happy to hear you say 1 or 2 hypomanic days every six weeks. I thought I was feeling normal every now and then and could get things done and that FINALLY I  was getting better. You didn’t get me down btw I was already here. I awoke to a  vicious migraine at 6:30 am and I still feel nowhere near normal or pain free. Another wasted day. kayann – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – > I saw my PDoc this evening, and I was trying to explain to him what I > thought was going on with my moods. He gave me the following > explanations: > I am Bi-Polar II. A Bi-Polar two is depressed most of the time with > infrequent (hypo)manic episodes. He said that my "guestiment" that I > have 1 or 2 hypo days every 6 weeks of depression is not unreasonable > for a BPII. He has asked me to keep a diary because he is interested > in documenting my cycles, especially the "sawtooth effect" (see below) > That which I thought was "mixed states", that is my ability to go from > low to high back to low in just a matter of hours, is what my PDoc > calls the "sawtooth effect". That I am not imagining it, I do go from > depressession to manic and back to depressed in a matter of hours, > even minutes. This "sawtooth" effect is the result of SSRIs on a  BPII > when the mood stablizer isn’t working perfectly. But he did explain > that it was spikes of extreme mood swings. > Thought you might be interested in hearing about that "sawtooth" > effect.      Ralph

Response:

Journals are excellent.  The self discipline it takes  to be consistant can sometimes be a problem. Don’t let yourself become paranoid about, "I wonder what mood will happen next?" Try to smile and do one nice thing everyday. Works for me. — PBTrue

Response:

>Hmmm…I kinda do the same myself I think, but how do I tell if mine is more >situational i.e., a particular situation depressing me, but then I let go of >it and get happy again…what do you think? >-judy

My personal experience is that many of my moodswings are triggered by events. However the difference between a quote-unquote "normal emotion" and a "mood swing" is that the "moodswing" definately goes too far. For example someone says something that annoys me, on the scale of ten, this annoyance is worth an anger level of 3; well I go to a level of three and then I keep right on going. Or, something will happen that disappoints me, and instead of getting mildly sad, I keep right on going into a deep and dark depression.         Of course there is always the question "Which came first, the chicken or the egg". Did the event trigger the Bi-Polar OR was the Bi-Polar event already happening and just waiting for an excuse to manifest itself? That’s the hell of this condition, you never are quite sure which emotions are actually yours and which one’s belong to the Bi-Polar.           Ralph

Response:

> My main mood stabilizer is >depakote–what is yours? Dot

Hi Dot,         My mood stablizer is neurontin. Anpther interesting thing that my PDoc explained, which I should have known, but I didn’t realize…. One med that you are on can either increase the effect of, or help control the effect of, another med that you are on. The example that my PDoc gave me is Buspar. Buspar is for anxiety however it aids the effect of the prozac as an antidepressant. It makes something more receptive to the prozac.  Hugs,  Ralph

Response:

> I saw my PDoc this evening, and I was trying to explain to him what I > thought was going on with my moods. He gave me the following > explanations: > I am Bi-Polar II. A Bi-Polar two is depressed most of the time with > infrequent (hypo)manic episodes. He said that my "guestiment" that I > have 1 or 2 hypo days every 6 weeks of depression is not unreasonable > for a BPII. He has asked me to keep a diary because he is interested > in documenting my cycles, especially the "sawtooth effect" (see below)

hmm, this sounds a lot like me. in my case it seems to go in cycles of about 3 months.. during that 3 months ill be depressed for 2 months…. then start to get a little hyper…. then get very hypomanic and irritable for a few weeks….. the get really irritable and ‘mixy’, then crash very hard for another couple months. yukk! i hadnt heard the term sawtooth either. interesting ) anna > That which I thought was "mixed states", that is my ability to go from > low to high back to low in just a matter of hours, is what my PDoc > calls the "sawtooth effect". That I am not imagining it, I do go from > depressession to manic and back to depressed in a matter of hours, > even minutes. This "sawtooth" effect is the result of SSRIs on a  BPII > when the mood stablizer isn’t working perfectly. But he did explain > that it was spikes of extreme mood swings. > Thought you might be interested in hearing about that "sawtooth" > effect.      Ralph

– ‘the softest of all soft things overrides the hardest of things….’ — i ching "blessed am i to dwell in this beautiful temple"

Response:

I love bubble baths too but I certainly don’t do them often enough. I like mine by candle light, how about you? Kayann – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text ->I hadn’t heard it called that to my knowledge though I  most certainly >have felt it. I don’t take any anti-depressants. I had too many headaches >and they could make me terribly irritable. My son doesn’t take them >anymore either. >I think I’m going to start tracking my moods too. I just feel like there >could be more to my life. I wasn’t too happy to hear you say 1 or 2 >hypomanic days every six weeks. I thought I was feeling normal every now >and then and could get things done and that FINALLY I  was getting better. >You didn’t get me down btw I was already here. I awoke to a  vicious >migraine at 6:30 am and I still feel nowhere near normal or pain free. >Another wasted day. >kayann > I’m so sorry you are feeling bad, sweet-sweet angel Kayann. > I wish there was something I could do. > Go soak in a bubble bath, please. > I’m going to.  Sounds silly, but it helps. > Know this: you are loved. > Gina

Response:

Ralph: 1st time I;ve been in this group, so I hope I can relate.  I am bipolar, but my moods are much more manic than depressive. But,my recent drpression lasted 4 weeks, then today I "snapped" out–and am watching diligently to be sure I’m not manic now. I may be. I think I’d like to keep a journal, too, good idea. My main mood stabilizer is depakote–what is yours? Dot

Response:

For a few years I kept an daily  mood chart that way; made it on graph paper and just a dot/line graph with -5 to +5 on the Y axis.  I guess to accurately chart moods such as Ralph’s pdoc wants the day would have to be broken up into smaller increments.  But it really was useful to be able to see patterns and tendencies. take care, Amy

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> > I saw my PDoc this evening, and I was trying to explain to him what I > > thought was going on with my moods. He gave me the following > > explanations: > > I am Bi-Polar II. A Bi-Polar two is depressed most of the time with > > infrequent (hypo)manic episodes. He said that my "guestiment" that I > > have 1 or 2 hypo days every 6 weeks of depression is not unreasonable > > for a BPII. He has asked me to keep a diary because he is interested > > in documenting my cycles, especially the "sawtooth effect" (see below) > hmm, this sounds a lot like me. in my case it seems to go in cycles of > about 3 months.. during that 3 months ill be depressed for 2 months…. > then start to get a little hyper…. then get very hypomanic and > irritable for a few weeks….. the get really irritable and ‘mixy’, then > crash very hard for another couple months. yukk! > i hadnt heard the term sawtooth either. interesting ) > anna > V. added: > Speculating about the term "sawtooth" as applied to mood swings. It sounds > to me like a method of graphing the mood > swings. Picture the teeth on a saw blade, there are endless > patterns, some are triangular, same rate of change going up > as going down the tooths profile.  Like wise some sawteeth > may have a short rate of change on one side, and a long rate > of change on the other.  Simply said: "like graphing electronic > wave forms on an oscilloscope, in this case "sawtooth" wave > forms. By graphing the shape of the sawtooth and the frequency > of the sawtooth, a picture of moodswing type and frequency > can be examined. > V. >  > That which I thought was "mixed states", that is my ability to go from > > low to high back to low in just a matter of hours, is what my PDoc > > calls the "sawtooth effect". That I am not imagining it, I do go from > > depressession to manic and back to depressed in a matter of hours, > > even minutes. This "sawtooth" effect is the result of SSRIs on a  BPII > > when the mood stablizer isn’t working perfectly. But he did explain > > that it was spikes of extreme mood swings. > > Thought you might be interested in hearing about that "sawtooth" > > effect.      Ralph > — > ‘the softest of all soft things > overrides the hardest of things….’ > — i ching > "blessed am i to dwell in this beautiful temple"

Response:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> I saw my PDoc this evening, and I was trying to explain to him what I > thought was going on with my moods. He gave me the following > explanations: > I am Bi-Polar II. A Bi-Polar two is depressed most of the time with > infrequent (hypo)manic episodes. He said that my "guestiment" that I > have 1 or 2 hypo days every 6 weeks of depression is not unreasonable > for a BPII. He has asked me to keep a diary because he is interested > in documenting my cycles, especially the "sawtooth effect" (see below) > hmm, this sounds a lot like me. in my case it seems to go in cycles of > about 3 months.. during that 3 months ill be depressed for 2 months…. > then start to get a little hyper…. then get very hypomanic and > irritable for a few weeks….. the get really irritable and ‘mixy’, then > crash very hard for another couple months. yukk! > i hadnt heard the term sawtooth either. interesting ) > anna

V. added: Speculating about the term "sawtooth" as applied to mood swings. It sounds to me like a method of graphing the mood swings. Picture the teeth on a saw blade, there are endless patterns, some are triangular, same rate of change going up as going down the tooths profile.  Like wise some sawteeth may have a short rate of change on one side, and a long rate of change on the other.  Simply said: "like graphing electronic wave forms on an oscilloscope, in this case "sawtooth" wave forms. By graphing the shape of the sawtooth and the frequency of the sawtooth, a picture of moodswing type and frequency can be examined. V.  > That which I thought was "mixed states", that is my ability to go from – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> low to high back to low in just a matter of hours, is what my PDoc > calls the "sawtooth effect". That I am not imagining it, I do go from > depressession to manic and back to depressed in a matter of hours, > even minutes. This "sawtooth" effect is the result of SSRIs on a  BPII > when the mood stablizer isn’t working perfectly. But he did explain > that it was spikes of extreme mood swings. > Thought you might be interested in hearing about that "sawtooth" > effect.      Ralph > — > ‘the softest of all soft things > overrides the hardest of things….’ > — i ching > "blessed am i to dwell in this beautiful temple"

Response:

Question:

2:00 am friday. Last dose of any meds monday am at hospital. pdocs screwed up bad, fucked up detox in hospital, didn’t let me know what they were doing, I was pissed & scared. ME/I voluntarily cut depakote since they denied 4 days dose (staggered) in ten days in hosp. THEY cut wellbutrin. They increased seroquel, added ativan 2x daily, hit me up with haldol & unknowns. when I left they didn’t return my supply of meds I had voluntarily surrendered. no taper-down plan. major sleep disturbances. I’m sick. When I hit the sleep barrier I’m afraid of ghosts(?!!?) and awaken. I sleep 2/3 hours per session…5/6 hours daily. I’m hypomanic but tired. Pdoc is perfectly willing to accept my discomfort (not the one in hosp., but original). Even asked my girlfriend for some of her rx tranks, but re-thought…bad idea. Valerian doesn’t work… nor does warm milk. I’m just bitching. It won’t kill me. But I’m afraid they may have fucked me up permanently. This is worse than quitting drinking. Jim

Response:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – > 2:00 am friday. Last dose of any meds monday am at hospital. pdocs screwed up > bad, fucked up detox in hospital, didn’t let me know what they were doing, I > was pissed & scared. ME/I voluntarily cut depakote since they denied 4 days > dose (staggered) in ten days in hosp. THEY cut wellbutrin. They increased > seroquel, added ativan 2x daily, hit me up with haldol & unknowns. > when I left they didn’t return my supply of meds I had voluntarily surrendered. > no taper-down plan. > major sleep disturbances. I’m sick. When I hit the sleep barrier I’m afraid of > ghosts(?!!?) and awaken. I sleep 2/3 hours per session…5/6 hours daily. I’m > hypomanic but tired. > Pdoc is perfectly willing to accept my discomfort (not the one in hosp., but > original). Even asked my girlfriend for some of her rx tranks, but > re-thought…bad idea. > Valerian doesn’t work… nor does warm milk. > I’m just bitching. > It won’t kill me. > But I’m afraid they may have fucked me up permanently. > This is worse than quitting drinking. > Jim

Hi Jim: I think the Haldol and some of the other older major tanqs. are just plain nasty…and I think should ONLY be saved for SHORT term..VERY end of the line use. Even then….there are some better newer ones, even seroquel, but can often be found to be helpful in kower doses, without many adverse effects. In fact, though, i stand by the mood stabalizers and adjustment of dose with a small dose of an antidepressant and benzodiazepine. I want to give you a bit of comfort..because I went through a nasty hospitalization being put on Melaril, along with a 100mg dose of Elavil and lithium. Of course, my pdoc was near his retirement, and I don’t think he had heard of any of the psych meds invented after the dawn of civilization. Thats why I always encourage people to "fire" their pdocs if they are ignoring your pain over and over again. I was in an "emotional straightjacket". The strange thing was..I exhibited no "psychotic" behaviour. I left the hospital feeling about 100 times worse then when I got there..and man..that IS bad. So, my Dad was good enough to really help me….he searched around the city for me (I was still too "Whacked"), and got me in with a fairly well know, and compasioante pdoc. While I was coming down off the other stuff (thankfully, the new doc "tappered" me)..I was SURE the stuff had messed my head up SOME way!! Some kind of brain damage!! But..the new pdoc didn’t let me live in misery….he started out with a VERY small dose of a benzo. Now..we are working primarily with three meds….Effexor XR…a regular benzo schedule, and now into mood stabalizers, starting with Depakote. I still have some distance to go….but I HONESTLY never thought I would have the strength I have now (which is not REALLY alot) back then. My mind is sharp again…am still trying to fix a bit of this "depersonaliztion" with a med adjustment..and my anxiety feels like it was this buring fire that was claimed by a nice summer rainshower. My pdoc also mentioned that there was NO need for me to be on the meds I was in the hospital. He figures that since I didn’t have a drug plan, they just threw the cheapest drugs they could find at me. I can’t give you a 100 percent correct answer, as I don’t know about this regarding myself either, but I DON’T think you have to worry about any permanent brain damage. I would think you would get more damage from alcohol use. Please email if you wish to talk more!! Just IMHO..etc.. Best Luck.. James MacLachlan — "I’ve used up all my sick days…so I’m calling in dead!" -Anon "I’d like to know where shareholders get their power from?? I am wondering where the hell the word "shareholder" is in the American Consitution?" "Let us pause for a moment to recover from the sad news this week that Dan Quayle will not be running for President next year. Potatoe lovers all over America are feeling a sense of loss and I can only say that with Quayle out of the running, all we have to look forward to now is the day when we get to hear more than a sound bite from George W. Bush and realize he’s even dumber than Quayle. There is a reason you have not heard Bush Jr. speak on television for any length of time. The media knows he’s as dense as oatmeal and because they have been so busy touting him as "the front runner" to actually put him on to speak for ten minutes would reveal how not on top of things they really are." Micheal Moore, "The AWFUL Truth"

Response:

i hope that you get better=bruce

Response:

James… The Effexor SR just depressed me more, Depakote held me in its channel, but tended to depress and I liked seroquel too much for it to be good for me….liked that it  knocked me out, looked forward to doses. Fired 6 pdocs in past 5 years. They have accused me of being unable to bond with ‘em. Jim "Mama mama here comes Doctor Dark…his hoom slim-a-slammin his hooves kickin sparks…" Don Van Vliet (aka Captain Beefheart) "Doctor Dark" from "Lick Off My Decals Baby"

Response:

Sounds like you are having a rough time, but at least you are not being incarcerated against your will.  I am betting you would rather be miserable at home than in the dungeon.  Hang-in there.  Hopefully you will find something to make your situation tolerable.

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text ->This is worse than quitting drinking. >Jim

Response:

Pdoc can’t replaces these meds?  Sounds like you need something to take the edge off, Jim.  Also sounds like you’re aware and watching yourself as you go through the motions of it.  Don’t lose touch.   Linda Briteyes – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – > 2:00 am friday. Last dose of any meds monday am at hospital. pdocs screwed up > bad, fucked up detox in hospital, didn’t let me know what they were doing, I > was pissed & scared. ME/I voluntarily cut depakote since they denied 4 days > dose (staggered) in ten days in hosp. THEY cut wellbutrin. They increased > seroquel, added ativan 2x daily, hit me up with haldol & unknowns. > when I left they didn’t return my supply of meds I had voluntarily surrendered. > no taper-down plan. > major sleep disturbances. I’m sick. When I hit the sleep barrier I’m afraid of > ghosts(?!!?) and awaken. I sleep 2/3 hours per session…5/6 hours daily. I’m > hypomanic but tired. > Pdoc is perfectly willing to accept my discomfort (not the one in hosp., but > original). Even asked my girlfriend for some of her rx tranks, but > re-thought…bad idea. > Valerian doesn’t work… nor does warm milk. > I’m just bitching. > It won’t kill me. > But I’m afraid they may have fucked me up permanently. > This is worse than quitting drinking. > Jim

Response:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – > James… > The Effexor SR just depressed me more, Depakote held me in its channel, but > tended to depress and I liked seroquel too much for it to be good for > me….liked that it  knocked me out, looked forward to doses. > Fired 6 pdocs in past 5 years. They have accused me of being unable to bond > with ‘em. > Jim > "Mama mama here comes Doctor Dark…his hoom slim-a-slammin his hooves kickin > sparks…" > Don Van Vliet (aka Captain Beefheart) > "Doctor Dark" from "Lick Off My Decals Baby"

This is pretty much my situation (minus the Seroquel..YET..maybe?!?!) The Effexor XR seemed to work for a week or two..but I think that was just because it was simply "changing" some of the N.T. levels…and when it set in..no emotion…LOTS of sadness…and LOTS of "numbness". Depakote is pretty much the same..it kep’t me mildly level, but also a lingering depression followed. BOTH of these KILLED my sex drive…and I DO MEAN KILL!! I am looking at a possible change to a VERY mild dose of one of the newer anti-psychotics. I have to be careful, though..as I will be starting a new job, and don’t want this stuff messing me up. I have been off Effexor XR for about two days now, and actually feel like I am coming back to life. Wish I had answers my friend… James — "I’ve used up all my sick days…so I’m calling in dead!" -Anon "I’d like to know where shareholders get their power from?? I am wondering where the hell the word "shareholder" is in the American Consitution?" "Let us pause for a moment to recover from the sad news this week that Dan Quayle will not be running for President next year. Potatoe lovers all over America are feeling a sense of loss and I can only say that with Quayle out of the running, all we have to look forward to now is the day when we get to hear more than a sound bite from George W. Bush and realize he’s even dumber than Quayle. There is a reason you have not heard Bush Jr. speak on television for any length of time. The media knows he’s as dense as oatmeal and because they have been so busy touting him as "the front runner" to actually put him on to speak for ten minutes would reveal how not on top of things they really are." Micheal Moore, "The AWFUL Truth"

Response:

It occurred to me the other night that advanced "augmentation" of psymeds can cause chaotic (scientific defintion) results, i.e… SSRIs plus serum norepinephrine reuptake inhibitors plus mood stabilizer plus antipsychotic equals "Who Goes There? (oops, Carpenter "Thing" reference again) shape-shifting mutant emotion storm. I finally got a moderate amount of sleep using antihistamines and Melatonin…maybe just placebo affex but perception is everything. My surmise is that the Depakote straight 6mg per kg body weight formula used on me was far too much. Good luck with the new job. Jim "Must the breathing pay for those who breathe in and don’t breathe out? There’d be no game brother, if no one’d play…" Don Van Vliet (aka Captain Beefheart) "Petrified Forest" from "Lick Off My Decals Baby"

Response:

Question:

i received an interesting email about how, if BP goes medically untreated, the condition can worsen every time there is an episode of mania or depression.  this is called kindling. anyone got any info, please? later, gators shawn

Response:

Disagree with Mark. "Kindling" is a pretty well understood phenomenon, with a manic swing compensated for by a corresponding depressive swing, oscillating more (higher amplitude) the longer it’s uncontrolled. In my case, kindling has been set off bad psymed use… I go WAY hypomanic on SSRIs alone, way depressed on over-prescription of mood stabilizers and anti-psychotic. Lower doses do better..maybe not get "better" as fast but as oscillation cycle dampens more equilibrium is attained. I figure that for me to do well on the pmeds, I should get a dose of each appropriate to a five-year-old (for example 5mg Effexor XR, 125mg Depakote & 2.5mg Seroquel, rather than the 375mg, 1250mg and 100mg respectively I ended up on). Good luck getting a pdoc to agree, though. Seems to me they act as a marketing wing of the drug corps. Selling more pills = better treatment? I don’t think so…. Jim "Must the breathing pay for those who breathe in and don’t breathe out? There’d be no game brother, if no one’d play…" Don Van Vliet (aka Captain Beefheart) "Petrified Forest" from "Lick Off My Decals Baby"

Response:

Hi, "kindling" refers to the idea that, the more "episodes" (manic or depressed) that occur, the more likely it is that they will reoccur.  The theory is that the neural connections are strengthened with each episode, so they are more easily triggered later on. Kindling is documented pretty well for epilepsy, so that led to it being researched in bipolar as well.  There is evidence for supporting this and not… Personally I think that in my case it is a valid phenomenon and logically it makes sense.  The research with unipolar depresion in children finds that if you can quickly begin treatment, it is less likely that the child will continue to have depression later in life.  I can’t document that one as I received the info. during a conference on depression and I’m too lazy to go find it, but it was a researcher from Stanford University that was speaking at the conference. http://www.mentalhealth.com/mag1/p5h-bp01.html    (not) http://www.mhsource.com/bipolar/bp9802research.html  (for)

Response:

>    The only  STATISTICAL  constant is, the cycles become more rapid with >age.

This is certainly not true for children and adolescents with bipolar disorder. Research shows they are MORE likely to rapid cycle, or ultra-rapid cycle, than adults are. Vicki H.

Response:

    Misleading statistics, Pal—an example of bad math.     The cycles go their own way, individually—and just because they get worse with one patient, don’t mean shit to the rest of ‘em.  Some folks’ cycles actually get better with time!  And some get worse.  It’s a nefarious disease; deal with it.     The only  STATISTICAL  constant is, the cycles become more rapid with age.     And even then, it’s just a general trend….  Your mileage may vary.     Bummer, ain’t it? — When responding personally, remove the "nospam" from my address.  Sorry for the extra typing, but we’ve got to Nuke the SpamBot Slimeballs!

Response:

Question:

When I was 17, my pdoc put me on Haldol and Sertraline. Good thing i rarely took them. I just read an article that Haldol can cause permanent CNS damage. I’m in my mid 20’s now and looking back i realize that I wasn’t crazy. I was just your average gloomy misfit. Now I have to worry for the rest of my life that these drugs may have damaged me in some way. -Some people say that Jesus lives inside us. Well, I hope he likes burritos because that’s what he’s getting!-Jack Handey(Deep Thoughts)

Response:

Hi Jack, Welcome to ASDM > When I was 17, my pdoc put me on Haldol and Sertraline. Good thing i >

rarely took them. I just read an article that Haldol can cause permanent > CNS damage. I’m in my mid 20’s now and looking back i realize that I >

wasn’t crazy. I was just your average gloomy misfit. Now I have to worry > for the rest of my life that these drugs may have damaged me in some way.

- Please don’t be overly concerned about the hladol. One of the side effects is Tardive Dyskinesia which is irreversible damage to the CNS. Since you did not xperince that, chances are you are fine. The newer APs have lower incidence of TD. How are you doing? Peace,

Response:

Steve writes:

Neuroleptics do cause damage and that damage accumulates with each taste of that poison But it  the damage has already been done.  Your body has some ability to repair the damage such as rerouting neural functions. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – >Hi Jack, >Welcome to ASDM > When I was 17, my pdoc put me on Haldol and Sertraline. Good thing i > >rarely took them. I just read an article that Haldol can cause permanent > CNS damage. I’m in my mid 20’s now and looking back i realize that I > >wasn’t crazy. I was just your average gloomy misfit. Now I have to worry > for the rest of my life that these drugs may have damaged me in some way. >- >Please don’t be overly concerned about the hladol. One of the side >effects is Tardive Dyskinesia which is irreversible damage to the CNS. >Since you did not xperince that, chances are you are fine. >The newer APs have lower incidence of TD. >How are you doing? >Peace,

Response:

Question:

Hi Lynda, >1. Effective >2. Ineffective (breakthrough manias, hypomanias, depressions) >3. Inconvenient (adverse side effects) which resulted in termination of >a specific medication

All of the above in varying degrees unfortunately. >Have any of you changed pdocs because of the above occurrances?

Add #2 and #3 to the fact that my first pdoc was an asshole who only cared about his insurance payment and refused to listen  to anyone, including my wife…….yep, I did, after a few visits. Pdoc since then has been fine. I use him mostly for meds, and my therp handles my day to day dementedness<g>. >Finally, wht is the length of time you have been officially diagnosed as >having BP illness?

Just over a year, "Officially", though it was suspected for over a years time before that as well. And I’ve ALWAYS known I was cuckoo!!<G> P/H/L BPBoy "He’s slightly schizophrenic/Me and me and me agree/And you are gonna pay/For what you did to me" -D.Mustaine

Response:

I was diagnosed with BP in Feb 93 although another pdoc gave me tri-cyclics in 88 for depression. Took those for about a year or so. After 93, lithium and SSRIs mostly. The treatment has been somewhat effective for the the last two or so years; I’m not dead yet, and have actually held a job for two years straight, though starting a new one soon. Chloimiprimine (is that it?) gave me tremors and lithium gut trouble and the SSRIs not much of anything. The only pdoc change was from the first one ten years ago to the one after a hospital visit in 93. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> I am asking this question, and appreciate your answers, because it > appears several members have had less than ideal interactions with their > search for the  "right" medication combo and the appropriate  pdoc/therp > with whom a trusting relationship could be established. > Since your diagnosis, has your treatment and mangement of BP illness > been: > 1. Effective > 2. Ineffective (breakthrough manias, hypomanias, depressions) > 3. Inconvenient (adverse side effects) which resulted in termination of > a specific medication > Have any of you changed pdocs because of the above occurrances? > Finally, wht is the length of time you have been officially diagnosed as > having BP illness? > For me I have been fortunate. My pdoc is trustworthy, caring, and > accessible. > I have had to change meds frequently since i have been plgued with > severed depressions. I also have URC which proves to be a challenge to > treat <sigh>. > I have been officially DX or nearly 2 years but have had > BP  illness since my teens (my pdoc agrees with my assessment per the > historical information I have given him). > Peace,

Response:

>1. Effective

   Variable, but at worst negligent. >2. Ineffective (breakthrough manias, hypomanias, depressions)

    breathrough mania, hypomanias, mostly depressions. >3. Inconvenient (adverse side effects) which resulted in termination of a

specific medication. >Stopped for side effects: Paxil, Serzone, Neurontin, Depakote,

   Tegretol, Haldol, Mellaril, Thorazine, Trilafon. Wellbutrin,     Buspirone, Desipermine, caffeine, alcohol (but cheat a little)     That is it?  I loves klonopin the wonder drug. >Have any of you changed pdocs because of the above occurrances?

  I have had more Pdocs than a dog has fleas, most government   employees, where there is not a lot of choices >Finally, wht is the length of time you have been officially diagnosed as

having BP illness? Officially since late 1976, however the symptoms and treatment began in late 1968.  Because of the delay in correct diagnosis, 8 years was spent on that "ship of fools"  Vernon (kates secret lover) – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text ->Peace,

Response:

>I am asking this question, and appreciate your answers, because it >appears several members have had less than ideal interactions with their >search for the  "right" medication combo and the appropriate  pdoc/therp >with whom a trusting relationship could be established. >Since your diagnosis, has your treatment and mangement of BP illness >been: >1. Effective >2. Ineffective (breakthrough manias, hypomanias, depressions) >3. Inconvenient (adverse side effects) which resulted in termination of >a specific medication

Well, I can answer 1, 2, and 3!  Right now, the treatment is apparently effective, although just in the last week or so I have been having some very mild twinges of hypomania, but certainly nothing approaching a full-blown episode.  For six months following my diagnosis, I was on a medication combo that harnessed my mania but did nothing at all for depression.  One of the medications (Depakote) had very adverse side effects, and I stopped taking it. >Have any of you changed pdocs because of the above occurrances?

Nope.  I trust my pdoc; he was willing to keep trying different combos until we finally hit on the right one.  Plus, I can get into see him quickly in an emergency, he returns phone calls, and most importantly, he listens to me. I also see an excellent clinical psychologist for therapy.  She pegged me as bipolar before she knew of my diagnosis.  Without the support of both of these people, I don’t believe I would have survived my last suicidal depression. >Finally, wht is the length of time you have been officially diagnosed as >having BP illness?

I could have written the paragraph below.   >I have been officially DX or nearly 2 years but have had >BP  illness since my teens (my pdoc agrees with my assessment per the >historical information I have given him).

Linda

Response:

> I am asking this question, and appreciate your answers, because it > appears several members have had less than ideal interactions with their > search for the  "right" medication combo and the appropriate  pdoc/therp > with whom a trusting relationship could be established. > Since your diagnosis, has your treatment and mangement of BP illness > been: > 1. Effective > 2. Ineffective (breakthrough manias, hypomanias, depressions) > 3. Inconvenient (adverse side effects) which resulted in termination of > a specific medication

My treatment (IMHO) has been fairly effective. While there have been a few hypos and a few depressions, I have not gone REALLY high or stayed low for more than a few days straight. My pdocs treatment OTOH was both #2 and #3, which is why I quit it. > Have any of you changed pdocs because of the above occurrances?

Just quit using the one I had – Unfortunately, he’s my only choice in this area My therp was good, but can’t prescribe. > Finally, wht is the length of time you have been officially diagnosed as > having BP illness?

A little less than a year – avoided pdocs like the plague and therefore avoided the diagnosis <g>. > For me I have been fortunate. My pdoc is trustworthy, caring, and > accessible. > I have had to change meds frequently since i have been plgued with > severed depressions. I also have URC which proves to be a challenge to > treat <sigh>. > I have been officially DX or nearly 2 years but have had > BP  illness since my teens (my pdoc agrees with my assessment per the > historical information I have given him). > Peace,

Tigger

Response:

I’m hoping you feel better today then your last post about the bipolar site we all had such – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – > Oh Lynda… I could write a book….  I’ll really try to make it short. > Since your diagnosis, has your treatment and mangement of BP illness > been: > 1. Effective – As far as a bandaid effect, yes my treatment has been effective.  When >         I first started this roller coaster ride, the goal was to bring me > down, reel >         me in.  That’s happened.  Drug Merry-Go Round, Therapy, all the "by the > book" >         Things.  My life still is not my own. > 2. Ineffective (breakthrough manias, hypomanias, depressions) – I’ve had them all. >         Breakthrough Linda.  Uh huh. > 3. Inconvenient (adverse side effects) which resulted in termination of a specific > medication – Oh yeah.  Even had one wonderful pdoc that damn near killed me with an >         overdose of Li.  One of them had me committed because I simply > "cried."  Note >         To myself:  NEVER cry in front of a pdoc again. > Have any of you changed pdocs because of the above occurrances? >         Absolutely.  Five within as many years.  One died, one took his place >         temporarily, one took her place, one gave up, committed me, and made me > leave >         and thank God for the new one. > Finally, wht is the length of time you have been officially diagnosed as > having BP illness? >         Five years > I hop this is what you were looking for.  I tried to keep it short. > Hugs, > Linda > (Briteyes)

Response:

> Since your diagnosis, has your treatment and mangement of BP illness > been: > 1. Effective

I have been seeing my current Pdoc, Therapist, and NP for too short of a time to pass judgment.  Looks like treatment will be effective, sooner or later. > 2. Ineffective (breakthrough manias, hypomanias, depressions)

Currently ineffective by my own choice.  Was on meds when I started with current treatment group and realized I had to take a chance and go off meds for them to properly diagnose me.  Turns out I was right. > 3. Inconvenient (adverse side effects) which resulted in termination of > a specific medication.  

So far I have terminated 3 meds due to reallllly bad side effects (reallllly bad is worse than adverse <G>). > Have any of you changed pdocs because of the above occurrances?

My first therapist was, how shall I say, a quack? > Finally, wht is the length of time you have been officially diagnosed as > having BP illness?

Over 3 years.  The first 2-1/2 years were a waste of time and have resulted in a lot of problems with my applications for SSD and SSI.  My current therapist and I have concluded that my first signs of BP were in childhood. Mike

Response:

lol… Thank you Lisa.  I did get a bit weirded out over it.  I was disgusted too.  I’m much better now. lol Linda (Briteyes) – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – > I’m hoping you feel better today then your last post about the bipolar site we all had such > Oh Lynda… I could write a book….  I’ll really try to make it short. > > Since your diagnosis, has your treatment and mangement of BP illness > > been: > > 1. Effective – As far as a bandaid effect, yes my treatment has been effective.  When >         I first started this roller coaster ride, the goal was to bring me > down, reel >         me in.  That’s happened.  Drug Merry-Go Round, Therapy, all the "by the > book" >         Things.  My life still is not my own. > > 2. Ineffective (breakthrough manias, hypomanias, depressions) – I’ve had them all. >         Breakthrough Linda.  Uh huh. > > 3. Inconvenient (adverse side effects) which resulted in termination of a specific > > medication – Oh yeah.  Even had one wonderful pdoc that damn near killed me with an >         overdose of Li.  One of them had me committed because I simply > "cried."  Note >         To myself:  NEVER cry in front of a pdoc again. > > Have any of you changed pdocs because of the above occurrances? >         Absolutely.  Five within as many years.  One died, one took his place >         temporarily, one took her place, one gave up, committed me, and made me > leave >         and thank God for the new one. > > Finally, wht is the length of time you have been officially diagnosed as > > having BP illness? >         Five years > I hop this is what you were looking for.  I tried to keep it short. > Hugs, > Linda > (Briteyes)

Response:

Hi , I was Diagnosed with Bipolar II 5 months ago . I have changed PDocs twice . First I was put on Wellbutrin which had the opposite effect and put me in a depression so deep I was having Psychotic symptoms and they had to put me on Risperadol . They figured this out and put me on Zoloft which had no effect on me so they kept increasing it. For weeks I had no relief . Finally they opted for Lithium with Prozac . Prozac made me hyper and gave me insomnia . They switched me to the newest drug on the market , Which I had an allergic reaction to . So they opted for just Lithium . The only effect that was adverse with Lithium was that they did not tell me drinking coffee with it would give me Tremors . So now I drink decaf. So far I have broken through the Lithium twice with Depressive episodes so they keep increasing my Lithium . My current Pdoc is Okay but my Therapist ditched me and stopped returning my phone calls without explaination . I was taking Atavan but they cut me off for fear of my becoming addicted to it . I have OCD and severe anxiety attacks . I have been hospitalised once which is where I was diagnosed Bipolar II . While in the Hospital my insurance company decided not to pay for me to stay simply because I needed to be stablised , They deemed me not suicidal enough . So they put me in Partial which they would only pay for 4 days . They said sorry , Thats the breaks.  I had checked myself into the hospital to start with because I had been planning on Killing myself .I had even written my letters to my loved ones , I ended up going for help because I knew I would do it if I didnt get help . My overall experience with the medical proffession  has not been good concerning my Bipolar I still want to die on a regular basis and my experience has been that they care about the damn money more than whether I get well or not . Sorry if that sounds negative its simply the closest to the truth of how I feel about my treatment . I feel like Im being kept in Limbo . Not enough to off myself and not enough to feel well either. Thats basically been my experience in a nutshell . I have been lucky at least I had Insurance the first time .  I am currently going through a depressive episode so please forgive my bitter , down attitude . Tab

Question:

Hi RKMIRE, Yep. For many reasons. Alcohol, by displacing water, can increase blood levels of medications to the point of toxicity. Alcohol is a depressant and tends to nullify the effect of meds like SSRIs’ for days. Your liver can be damaged. And one pdoc told me that I don’t need to be anymore uninhibited than I usually am – could end up married again! Bill – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – > Has anyone’s Pdoc told them absolutely no alchol w/ BPII?

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if you are taking any meds it is not smart to drink alchol. i stopt drinking ten years ago and my episodes are not as bad or often , the alchol brought me to the deepest depth in deprission i have ever felt, live is better with out it the,

Response:

I know exaxctly what you mean.  I was off Alcohol for almost a year Before I was diagnosed, because I still was acting goofy.  I wouldn’t go back those days.  My depressions were also much deeper and longewr.  I also drank when I was manic to take the edge off and slow down my thoughts.  It only made things worse.

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> if you are taking any meds it is not smart to drink alchol. > i stopt drinking ten years ago and my episodes are not as bad or often , the > alchol brought me to the deepest depth in deprission i have ever felt, live is > better with out it the,

Response:

Hi Rkmire, I have been in recovery for 4 years now of alcohol/drugs, I started drinking and drugging before the onset of my illness at the age of 13 years old. I am now 34 years old. I work in a treatment facility that deals with dual-diagnosis which means someone who has a mood disorder along with an alcohol or drug problem. Many of us who suffer from the afflictions of mental illness use substances to either kill the pain or edge, or to help us feel something.  What I do know is that the neurotransmitters in our brain are all effected by the use of alcohol and drug use. For example cocaine plays havoc on the dopamine receptor. Heroin, barbiturates, alcohol and benzodizapines–ativan, xanex, valium, librium etc are effected by the serotonin, GABA,opiate receptor. Stimulates like amphetamines, metamphetamines, MDMA, are effected by norephrine  and adrenaline receptors. My point is that if your brain chemistry is already imbalanced by your illness, and the medications you take are to balance out these neurotransmitters don’t you think that by using alcohol or drugs that you cause the imbalance to become worse or that the medications become ineffective. I can speak from experience all those years of using alcohol/drugs I was taking medication for my illness, essentially what happen is my mood swings became more frequent and worse. I came close to dying many times because of the toxicity of the alcohol/drugs I was taking in conjunction with my meds. I would take the doctor’s suggestion very careful when ingesting alcohol or any other substances that could throw your brain chemistry way off course. I was still in denial and didn’t adhere to my doctor’s advice and lied about my use which of course put my life in danger. There is a great web site that is loaded with resources pertaining to this subject. You may want to glance at it. www.medicina.univr.it/~psymed/links.html#Mental Health. It may give you some insight. Good luck with dealing with this difficult bridge we all have to cross at one time or another. Sincerely, Shadow – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – >Has anyone’s Pdoc told them absolutely no alchol w/ BPII?

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Has anyone’s Pdoc told them absolutely no alchol w/ BPII?

Response:

My doc has told me absolutely no alcohol with my meds.

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> Has anyone’s Pdoc told them absolutely no alchol w/ BPII?

Response:

I was told to limit alcohol to bare minimum, like toasting, but I can tell you that it’s not a pretty site with BP in general, or the meds. Each time I’ve drunk alcohol, I end up cutting myself. Sandy

Response:

Since alchohol, in itself, is a depressant, wouldn’t it make sense to leave it alone. PBTrue

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yeperoni there rkmire…five out of five psychiatrists from alabama to colorado and back again…i am a hard head soooo….what i did was start watching the subtle changes in my moods after drinking, and im talking 10 days of watching after the last drink…sure enough, i predictably became depressed and stayed that way for about that long, noticably.  i just dont want to go there anymore…when i have an invite out sometimes i still go and drink but not so much or so long.  it just isnt worth it anymore.  good luck, joan

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