Question:
The problem with most thryroid tests your doc gives you is it doesn’t usually give a good picture of the importance of how well your thyroid is working. They measure T4 thyroid levels, but that just doesn’t cut it. T3 covers more bases in your thyroid function, and not suprisingly, many a.d.s, even the SSRI’s, have an effect on these levels. Even as a trial, it will not hurt if your doc adds a very, very small trial of T3 to your med. This is also even more true when on Lithium, as this med can have an effect on thyroid. ALso, try to get hormone levels measured, as well as DHEA levels. If there are problems with these, that have been in fact showing up a fair bit with SSRI’s, your doc can provide small doses if needed. This can make a *world* of difference.
Response:
When you are tested for thyroid, be sure you are tested for FREE T3. That’s the level in your blood. My production and re-uptake of thyroid was good, and I had to get really pushy to get the test I needed, since it was already "proven" I wasn’t lacking in thyroid. Christina
The problem with most thryroid tests your doc gives you is it doesn’t usually give a good picture of the importance of how well your thyroid is working. They measure T4 thyroid levels, but that just doesn’t cut it. T3 covers more bases in your thyroid function, and not suprisingly, many a.d.s, even the SSRI’s, have an effect on these levels. Even as a trial, it will not hurt if your doc adds a very, very small trial of T3 to your med. This is also even more true when on Lithium, as this med can have an effect on thyroid. ALso, try to get hormone levels measured, as well as DHEA levels. If there are problems with these, that have been in fact showing up a fair bit with SSRI’s, your doc can provide small doses if needed. This can make a *world* of difference.
Response:
I’ve had a thyroid problem (a growth on the gland, destroyed with radiation, no meds for thyroid) and I have my TH3 checked every year, just to make sure my thyroid is still working. The doctor always calls it a TH3 and I’ve never heard him say they were doing a TH4…. Just my 2 cents… — Kathy – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> When you are tested for thyroid, be sure you are tested for FREE T3. That’s > the level in your blood. My production and re-uptake of thyroid was good, > and I had to get really pushy to get the test I needed, since it was already > "proven" I wasn’t lacking in thyroid. > Christina > The problem with most thryroid tests your doc gives you is it doesn’t > usually give a good picture of the importance of how well your thyroid is > working. They measure T4 thyroid levels, but that just doesn’t cut it. > T3 covers more bases in your thyroid function, and not suprisingly, many > a.d.s, even the SSRI’s, have an effect on these levels. Even as a trial, it > will not hurt if your doc adds a very, very small trial of T3 to your med. > This is also even more true when on Lithium, as this med can have an effect > on thyroid. > ALso, try to get hormone levels measured, as well as DHEA levels. If there > are problems with these, that have been in fact showing up a fair bit with > SSRI’s, your doc can provide small doses if needed. This can make a *world* > of difference.
Response:
You can also try a low carb diet. I’ve read and hear it can be good for OCD, mood swings, general depression, sleep and really increase your energy/stamina. Once your used to the diet, you don’t crave sweets, and only eat to satisfy, not stuff. Supposed to really balance out the blood sugar levels too.
Response:
The problem with most thryroid tests your doc gives you is it doesn’t usually give a good picture of the importance of how well your thyroid is working. They measure T4 thyroid levels, but that just doesn’t cut it. Docs order all kinds of different thyroid tests. T3 covers more bases in your thyroid function, T3 covers one base: T3 level. and not suprisingly, many a.d.s, even the SSRI’s, have an effect on these levels. Even as a trial, it will not hurt if your doc adds a very, very small trial of T3 to your med. This is also even more true when on Lithium, as this med can have an effect on thyroid. The only reason to add anything to an antidepressant is because it is indicated. ALso, try to get hormone levels measured, as well as DHEA levels. If there are problems with these, that have been in fact showing up a fair bit with SSRI’s, your doc can provide small doses if needed. This can make a *world* of difference. Which hormones do you recommend get measured? They’re are hundreds of them. Chip
Response:
>The problem with most thryroid tests your doc gives you is it doesn’t >usually give a good picture of the importance of how well your thyroid is >working. They measure T4 thyroid levels, but that just doesn’t cut it. >Docs order all kinds of different thyroid tests.
WRONG. 1)Not all doctors (R. Hedeya, 1996 "Biological Psychiatry") perform the following which CAN be indicative of hypothyroidism: a)Measure TSH (The most common test..but not the most effective) b)Measure free T4 c) Measure free T3. Treatment is required even if TSH is normal, but others aren’t. (L. Bartelina et al Journal of Clinical Endocrinilogyand Metabolism 70, 1990; 293) A TRH (Thyroid Releasing Hormone) stimulation test can also determine hypothyroidism.. Using either T3, or T3 and T4 is most effective in paitients who have even a *mild* hypothyroidism with antidepressant meds. (New England Journal of Medicine , 340, No. 6, Feb 11, 1999; 424-29) >T3 covers more bases in your thyroid function, >T3 covers one base: T3 level.
Yes, BUT, in *normal* thyoid function, only a small amount of T3 is converted from T4. According to a study in The New England Journal of Medicine (http://thyroid.about.com/health/thyroid/library/weekly/aa021199.htm T4 levels can be ‘normal’, but T3 can be lacking. Addition of T3 was more helpful then just the regular T4 Synthroid supplimentation. Here are further data to back this up. Also, Dr. Joffe, who is mentioned below, treated me in the hospital, and was very open to exploring ALL avenues for me to get better. That *should* be the intent of all doctors and psychiatrists, and without it, seems to be the reason so many are having a hard time because their doctor only thinks some simple ‘traditional’ method is the only thing that will work. My life was on the line, as are many others, and there is very little room for a ‘conservative’ approach, especially with the research out there. Am J Psychiatry 2000 Oct;157(10):1689-91 Related Articles, Books, LinkOut Thyroid hormone levels and recurrence of major depression. Joffe RT, Marriott M. OBJECTIVE: The relationship between basal thyroid hormone levels and acute antidepressant response has been studied, but any relationship between basal thyroid hormone levels and long-term course of depressive illness has not been evaluated. METHOD: The authors used a Cox regression survival analysis to evaluate the relationship between life course of depressive illness and basal levels of thyroid hormones (triiodothyronine [T(3)], thyroxine [T(4)], and thyrotropin) in 75 outpatients with unipolar major depressive disorder. RESULTS: Time to recurrence of major depression was inversely related to T(3) levels but not to T(4) levels. CONCLUSIONS: These data may be of clinical interest in view of the fact that T(3) is used to augment antidepressant response. J Clin Psychiatry 2001 Mar;62(3):169-73 Related Articles, Books Triiodothyronine augmentation of selective serotonin reuptake inhibitors in posttraumatic stress disorder. Agid O, Shalev AY, Lerer B. BACKGROUND: There is considerable comorbidity of major depression and posttraumatic stress disorder (PTSD), and antidepressants have been reported to be effective in treating PTSD. Addition of triiodothyronine (T3) to ongoing antidepressant treatment is considered an effective augmentation strategy in refractory depression. We report the effect of T3 augmentation of antidepressants in patients with PTSD. METHOD: T3 (25 microg/day) was added to treatment with a selective serotonin reuptake inhibitor (SSRI) (paroxetine or fluoxetine, 20 mg/day for at least 4 weeks and 40 mg/day for a further 4 weeks) of 5 patients who fulfilled DSM-IV criteria for PTSD but not for major depressive disorder (although all patients had significant depressive symptoms). The Clinician-Administered PTSD Scale, the 21-item Hamilton Rating Scale for Depression, and the Clinical Global Impressions-Severity of Illness scale were administered every 2 weeks, and self-assessments were performed with a 100 mm visual analog mood scale. RESULTS: In 4 of the 5 patients, partial clinical improvement was observed with SSRI treatment at a daily dose of 20 mg with little further improvement when the dose was raised to 40 mg/day. This improvement was substantially enhanced by the addition of T3. Improvement was most striking on the Hamilton Rating Scale for Depression. CONCLUSION: T3 augmentation of SSRI treatment may be of therapeutic benefit in patients with PTSD, particularly those with depressive symptoms. Larger samples and controlled studies are needed in order to confirm this observation. I’d suggest a simple Medline search with the words T3 and depression, and you will find much of this and extensive data on the issue. >and not suprisingly, many a.d.s, even the SSRI’s, have an effect on these >levels. Even as a trial, it will not hurt if your doc adds a very, very >small trial of T3 to your med. This is also even more true when on Lithium, >as this med can have an effect on thyroid. >The only reason to add anything to an antidepressant is because it is >indicated.
WRONG. Not according to the above research. Do we just give Beta Blockers to people with heart problems? No. >ALso, try to get hormone levels measured, as well as DHEA levels. If there >are problems with these, that have been in fact showing up a fair bit with >SSRI’s, your doc can provide small doses if needed. This can make a *world* >of difference. >Which hormones do you recommend get measured? They’re are hundreds of them.
Yes…very good. Did you learn that in school? Your doctor will know what hormones to measure. They will check for not only testosterone and estrogen, but adrenal output. There are a few different methods for correcting adrenal output problems.(Endocr Res. 2000 Nov;26(4):505-11.; ) (Br J Psychiatry. 2000 Feb;176:142-9.) (;Biol Psychiatry. 2000 Nov 15;48(10):989-95.) (Psychoneuroendocrinology. 2000 Nov;25(8):765-71.) For many, the only way to get better is search, fight, and aggresively explore every possible avenue. Many augmentation and additional strategies seem to be put down by many conventional doctors, but good reserach psychopharmacologists are working overtime to help the massive amount of treatment resistance out there. Just because you weren’t helped by any doesn’t mean you have the right to take it away or deny it from others. Too many come on here acting like the are the "Cheif Skeptics", researchers, and can deny and put down any methodologies. Bullshit. We are all equals on here…and nobody is forcing anyone to do *anything*. We do have a right to know if there is any indicative evidence, and our *doctor* NOT YOU, will decide. Jay (AKA James MacLachlan.) I’ve been on this board for many years, and have never seen this kind of negative crap. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text ->Chip
Response:
>You can also try a low carb diet. >I’ve read and hear it can be good for OCD, mood swings, general depression, >sleep and really increase your energy/stamina. >Once your used to the diet, you don’t crave sweets, and only eat to satisfy, >not stuff. >Supposed to really balance out the blood sugar levels too.
Yes, for sure. There are a couple of people on here who seem interested in denying others rights to trying augmentation or additional strategies. (All are well documented too.) Just ignore them… I would say that having highly mixed blood sugar levels could be very much part of depression. Keeping them stable with diet would seem like an excellent method. Jay (AKA James)
Response:
>The problem with most thryroid tests your doc gives you is it doesn’t >usually give a good picture of the importance of how well your thyroid is >working. They measure T4 thyroid levels, but that just doesn’t cut it. >Docs order all kinds of different thyroid tests.
WRONG. If you read enough of the literature and textbooks, you will find each endocrinologist has his own approach to ordering thryroid tests. And psychiatrists have even more thryoid function tests they like to order than endocrinologists. 1)Not all doctors (R. Hedeya, 1996 "Biological Psychiatry") perform the following which CAN be indicative of hypothyroidism: a)Measure TSH (The most common test..but not the most effective) b)Measure free T4 c) Measure free T3. Treatment is required even if TSH is normal, but others aren’t. (L. Bartelina et al Journal of Clinical Endocrinilogyand Metabolism 70, 1990; 293) A TRH (Thyroid Releasing Hormone) stimulation test can also determine hypothyroidism.. Using either T3, or T3 and T4 is most effective in paitients who have even a *mild* hypothyroidism with antidepressant meds. (New England Journal of Medicine , 340, No. 6, Feb 11, 1999; 424-29) >T3 covers more bases in your thyroid function, >T3 covers one base: T3 level.
Yes, BUT, in *normal* thyoid function, only a small amount of T3 is converted from T4. According to a study in The New England Journal of Medicine (http://thyroid.about.com/health/thyroid/library/weekly/aa021199.htm T4 levels can be ‘normal’, but T3 can be lacking. Addition of T3 was more helpful then just the regular T4 Synthroid supplimentation. Here are further data to back this up. Also, Dr. Joffe, who is mentioned below, treated me in the hospital, and was very open to exploring ALL avenues for me to get better. That *should* be the intent of all doctors and psychiatrists, and without it, seems to be the reason so many are having a hard time because their doctor only thinks some simple ‘traditional’ method is the only thing that will work. My life was on the line, as are many others, and there is very little room for a ‘conservative’ approach, especially with the research out there. Am J Psychiatry 2000 Oct;157(10):1689-91 Related Articles, Books, LinkOut Thyroid hormone levels and recurrence of major depression. Joffe RT, Marriott M. Mood Disorders Program and Department of Psychiatry, Faculty of Health Sciences, McMaster University, Hamilton, Ontario, Canada. OBJECTIVE: The relationship between basal thyroid hormone levels and acute antidepressant response has been studied, but any relationship between basal thyroid hormone levels and long-term course of depressive illness has not been evaluated. METHOD: The authors used a Cox regression survival analysis to evaluate the relationship between life course of depressive illness and basal levels of thyroid hormones (triiodothyronine [T(3)], thyroxine [T(4)], and thyrotropin) in 75 outpatients with unipolar major depressive disorder. RESULTS: Time to recurrence of major depression was inversely related to T(3) levels but not to T(4) levels. CONCLUSIONS: These data may be of clinical interest in view of the fact that T(3) is used to augment antidepressant response. J Clin Psychiatry 2001 Mar;62(3):169-73 Related Articles, Books Triiodothyronine augmentation of selective serotonin reuptake inhibitors in posttraumatic stress disorder. Agid O, Shalev AY, Lerer B. Department of Psychiatry, Hadassah-Hebrew University Medical Center, BACKGROUND: There is considerable comorbidity of major depression and posttraumatic stress disorder (PTSD), and antidepressants have been reported to be effective in treating PTSD. Addition of triiodothyronine (T3) to ongoing antidepressant treatment is considered an effective augmentation strategy in refractory depression. We report the effect of T3 augmentation of antidepressants in patients with PTSD. METHOD: T3 (25 microg/day) was added to treatment with a selective serotonin reuptake inhibitor (SSRI) (paroxetine or fluoxetine, 20 mg/day for at least 4 weeks and 40 mg/day for a further 4 weeks) of 5 patients who fulfilled DSM-IV criteria for PTSD but not for major depressive disorder (although all patients had significant depressive symptoms). The Clinician-Administered PTSD Scale, the 21-item Hamilton Rating Scale for Depression, and the Clinical Global Impressions-Severity of Illness scale were administered every 2 weeks, and self-assessments were performed with a 100 mm visual analog mood scale. RESULTS: In 4 of the 5 patients, partial clinical improvement was observed with SSRI treatment at a daily dose of 20 mg with little further improvement when the dose was raised to 40 mg/day. This improvement was substantially enhanced by the addition of T3. Improvement was most striking on the Hamilton Rating Scale for Depression. CONCLUSION: T3 augmentation of SSRI treatment may be of therapeutic benefit in patients with PTSD, particularly those with depressive symptoms. Larger samples and controlled studies are needed in order to confirm this observation. I’d suggest a simple Medline search with the words T3 and depression, and you will find much of this and extensive data on the issue. I suggest a simple Medline search on thyroid function tests to see which tests, and in what order, doctors order them to determine if there is a problem with thyroid function. I found that doctors vary in the way they approach ordering thyroid function tests. As far as I am able to determine, there is still no consensus on this, and probably won’t be because new generations of each test continue to appear. >and not suprisingly, many a.d.s, even the SSRI’s, have an effect on these >levels. Even as a trial, it will not hurt if your doc adds a very, very >small trial of T3 to your med. This is also even more true when on Lithium, >as this med can have an effect on thyroid. >The only reason to add anything to an antidepressant is because it is >indicated.
WRONG. Not according to the above research. Do we just give Beta Blockers to people with heart problems? No. Don’t follow your reasoning on that one. There should always be a good reason to give any person a med. All meds carry risks. >ALso, try to get hormone levels measured, as well as DHEA levels. If there >are problems with these, that have been in fact showing up a fair bit with >SSRI’s, your doc can provide small doses if needed. This can make a *world* >of difference. >Which hormones do you recommend get measured? They’re are hundreds of them.
Yes…very good. Did you learn that in school? Your doctor will know what hormones to measure. You just got through saying doctors didn’t know which thyroid function tests to order. But you do. They will check for not only testosterone and estrogen, but adrenal output. There are a few different methods for correcting adrenal output problems.(Endocr Res. 2000 Nov;26(4):505-11.; ) (Br J Psychiatry. 2000 Feb;176:142-9.) (;Biol Psychiatry. 2000 Nov 15;48(10):989-95.) (Psychoneuroendocrinology. 2000 Nov;25(8):765-71.) For many, the only way to get better is search, fight, and aggresively explore every possible avenue. Many augmentation and additional strategies seem to be put down by many conventional doctors, but good reserach psychopharmacologists are working overtime to help the massive amount of treatment resistance out there. I’ve never found that psychiatrists were adverse to augmentation strategies. I’ve had three myself: desipramine, lithium, and a stimulant. Just because you weren’t helped by any doesn’t mean you have the right to take it away or deny it from others. Too many come on here acting like the are the "Cheif Skeptics", researchers, and can deny and put down any methodologies. Bullshit. We are all equals on here…and nobody is forcing anyone to do *anything*. We do have a right to know if there is any indicative evidence, and our *doctor* NOT YOU, will decide. Jay (AKA James MacLachlan.) I’ve been on this board for many years, and have never seen this kind of negative crap. I’m unclear why you construe people disagreeing with your viewpoints as negative crap. Chip p.s. this is my last post on this subject
Response:
Why did you come on and attack what I said so aggressively..and with a very sarcastic and patronizing tone? (In your original post) It had everything to do with your tone…as I sure as heck had said nothing nasty toward *anyone* in my original post. I did not attack/mention ANYBODY…it was some very basic simple info based on articles I had even referenced. You don’t like being attacked? Well..I sure as heck don’t either. It’s the last thing anybody needs. Many people on all newsgroups often post reference articles, and just because it is done less so on a.s.a.p. does not mean you have to wage an all-out war against me. I’ve been around these parts for many years as well. James – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text ->The problem with most thryroid tests your doc gives you is it doesn’t >usually give a good picture of the importance of how well your thyroid is >working. They measure T4 thyroid levels, but that just doesn’t cut it. >Docs order all kinds of different thyroid tests. >WRONG. >If you read enough of the literature and textbooks, you will find each >endocrinologist has his own approach to ordering thryroid tests. And >psychiatrists have even more thryoid function tests they like to order than >endocrinologists. >1)Not all doctors (R. Hedeya, 1996 "Biological Psychiatry") perform the >following which CAN be indicative of hypothyroidism: >a)Measure TSH (The most common test..but not the most effective) >b)Measure free T4 >c) Measure free T3. >Treatment is required even if TSH is normal, but others aren’t. (L. >Bartelina et al Journal of Clinical Endocrinilogyand Metabolism 70, 1990; >293) A TRH (Thyroid Releasing Hormone) stimulation test can also determine >hypothyroidism.. >Using either T3, or T3 and T4 is most effective in paitients who have even a >*mild* hypothyroidism with antidepressant meds. (New England Journal of >Medicine , 340, No. 6, Feb 11, 1999; 424-29) >T3 covers more bases in your thyroid function, >T3 covers one base: T3 level. >Yes, BUT, in *normal* thyoid function, only a small amount of T3 is >converted from T4. According to a study in The New England Journal of >Medicine >(http://thyroid.about.com/health/thyroid/library/weekly/aa021199.htm >T4 levels can be ‘normal’, but T3 can be lacking. Addition of T3 was more >helpful then just the regular T4 Synthroid supplimentation. >Here are further data to back this up. Also, Dr. Joffe, who is mentioned >below, treated me in the hospital, and was very open to exploring ALL >avenues for me to get better. That *should* be the intent of all doctors and >psychiatrists, and without it, seems to be the reason so many are having a >hard time because their doctor only thinks some simple ‘traditional’ method >is the only thing that will work. >My life was on the line, as are many others, and there is very little room >for a ‘conservative’ approach, especially with the research out there. >Am J Psychiatry 2000 Oct;157(10):1689-91 Related Articles, Books, LinkOut >Thyroid hormone levels and recurrence of major depression. >Joffe RT, Marriott M. >Mood Disorders Program and Department of Psychiatry, Faculty of Health >Sciences, McMaster University, Hamilton, Ontario, Canada. >OBJECTIVE: The relationship between basal thyroid hormone levels and acute >antidepressant response has been studied, but any relationship between basal >thyroid hormone levels and long-term course of depressive illness has not >been evaluated. METHOD: The authors used a Cox regression survival analysis >to evaluate the relationship between life course of depressive illness and >basal levels of thyroid hormones (triiodothyronine [T(3)], thyroxine [T(4)], >and thyrotropin) in 75 outpatients with unipolar major depressive disorder. >RESULTS: Time to recurrence of major depression was inversely related to >T(3) levels but not to T(4) levels. CONCLUSIONS: These data may be of >clinical interest in view of the fact that T(3) is used to augment >antidepressant response. >J Clin Psychiatry 2001 Mar;62(3):169-73 Related Articles, Books >Triiodothyronine augmentation of selective serotonin reuptake inhibitors in >posttraumatic stress disorder. >Agid O, Shalev AY, Lerer B. >Department of Psychiatry, Hadassah-Hebrew University Medical Center, >BACKGROUND: There is considerable comorbidity of major depression and >posttraumatic stress disorder (PTSD), and antidepressants have been reported >to be effective in treating PTSD. Addition of triiodothyronine (T3) to >ongoing antidepressant treatment is considered an effective augmentation >strategy in refractory depression. We report the effect of T3 augmentation >of antidepressants in patients with PTSD. METHOD: T3 (25 microg/day) was >added to treatment with a selective serotonin reuptake inhibitor (SSRI) >(paroxetine or fluoxetine, 20 mg/day for at least 4 weeks and 40 mg/day for >a further 4 weeks) of 5 patients who fulfilled DSM-IV criteria for PTSD but >not for major depressive disorder (although all patients had significant >depressive symptoms). The Clinician-Administered PTSD Scale, the 21-item >Hamilton Rating Scale for Depression, and the Clinical Global >Impressions-Severity of Illness scale were administered every 2 weeks, and >self-assessments were performed with a 100 mm visual analog mood scale. >RESULTS: In 4 of the 5 patients, partial clinical improvement was observed >with SSRI treatment at a daily dose of 20 mg with little further improvement >when the dose was raised to 40 mg/day. This improvement was substantially >enhanced by the addition of T3. Improvement was most striking on the >Hamilton Rating Scale for Depression. CONCLUSION: T3 augmentation of SSRI >treatment may be of therapeutic benefit in patients with PTSD, particularly >those with depressive symptoms. Larger samples and controlled studies are >needed in order to confirm this observation. >I’d suggest a simple Medline search with the words T3 and depression, and >you will find much of this and extensive data on the issue. >I suggest a simple Medline search on thyroid function tests to see which >tests, and in what order, doctors order them to determine if there is a >problem with thyroid function. I found that doctors vary in the way they >approach ordering thyroid function tests. As far as I am able to determine, >there is still no consensus on this, and probably won’t be because new >generations of each test continue to appear. >and not suprisingly, many a.d.s, even the SSRI’s, have an effect on these >levels. Even as a trial, it will not hurt if your doc adds a very, very >small trial of T3 to your med. This is also even more true when on Lithium, >as this med can have an effect on thyroid. >The only reason to add anything to an antidepressant is because it is >indicated. >WRONG. Not according to the above research. Do we just give Beta Blockers to >people with heart problems? No. >Don’t follow your reasoning on that one. There should always be a good >reason to give any person a med. All meds carry risks. >ALso, try to get hormone levels measured, as well as DHEA levels. If there >are problems with these, that have been in fact showing up a fair bit with >SSRI’s, your doc can provide small doses if needed. This can make a *world* >of difference. >Which hormones do you recommend get measured? They’re are hundreds of them. >Yes…very good. Did you learn that in school? Your doctor will know what >hormones to measure. >You just got through saying doctors didn’t know which thyroid function tests >to order. But you do. >They will check for not only testosterone and estrogen, but adrenal output. >There are a few different methods for correcting adrenal output >problems.(Endocr Res. 2000 Nov;26(4):505-11.; ) (Br J Psychiatry. 2000 >Feb;176:142-9.) (;Biol Psychiatry. 2000 Nov 15;48(10):989-95.) >(Psychoneuroendocrinology. 2000 Nov;25(8):765-71.) >For many, the only way to get better is search, fight, and aggresively >explore every possible avenue. Many augmentation and additional strategies >seem to be put down by many conventional doctors, but good reserach >psychopharmacologists are working overtime to help the massive amount of >treatment resistance out there. >I’ve never found that psychiatrists were adverse to augmentation strategies. >I’ve had three myself: desipramine, lithium, and a stimulant. >Just because you weren’t helped by any doesn’t mean you have the right to >take it away or deny it from others. Too many come on here acting like the >are the "Cheif Skeptics", researchers, and can deny and put down any >methodologies. Bullshit. We are all equals on here…and nobody is forcing >anyone to do *anything*. We do have a right to know if there is any >indicative evidence, and our *doctor* NOT YOU, will decide. >Jay (AKA James MacLachlan.) I’ve been on this board for many years, and have >never seen this kind of negative crap. >I’m unclear why you construe people disagreeing with your viewpoints as >negative crap. >Chip >p.s. this is my last post on this subject
Response:
Why did you come on and attack what I said so aggressively..and with a very sarcastic and patronizing tone? (In your original post) It had everything to do with your tone…as I sure as heck had said nothing nasty toward *anyone* in my original post. I did not attack/mention ANYBODY…it was some very basic simple info based on articles I had even referenced. You don’t like being attacked? Well..I sure as heck don’t either. It’s the last thing anybody needs. Many people on all newsgroups often post reference articles, and just because it is done less so on a.s.a.p. does not mean you have to wage an all-out war against me. I’ve been around these parts for many years as well. James – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text ->The problem with most thryroid tests your doc gives you is it doesn’t >usually give a good picture of the importance of how well your thyroid is >working. They measure T4 thyroid levels, but that just doesn’t cut it. >Docs order all kinds of different thyroid tests. >WRONG. >If you read enough of the literature and textbooks, you will find each >endocrinologist has his own approach to ordering thryroid tests. And >psychiatrists have even more thryoid function tests they like to order than >endocrinologists. >1)Not all doctors (R. Hedeya, 1996 "Biological Psychiatry") perform the >following which CAN be indicative of hypothyroidism: >a)Measure TSH (The most common test..but not the most effective) >b)Measure free T4 >c) Measure free T3. >Treatment is required even if TSH is normal, but others aren’t. (L. >Bartelina et al Journal of Clinical Endocrinilogyand Metabolism 70, 1990; >293) A TRH (Thyroid Releasing Hormone) stimulation test can also determine >hypothyroidism.. >Using either T3, or T3 and T4 is most effective in paitients who have even a >*mild* hypothyroidism with antidepressant meds. (New England Journal of >Medicine , 340, No. 6, Feb 11, 1999; 424-29) >T3 covers more bases in your thyroid function, >T3 covers one base: T3 level. >Yes, BUT, in *normal* thyoid function, only a small amount of T3 is >converted from T4. According to a study in The New England Journal of >Medicine >(http://thyroid.about.com/health/thyroid/library/weekly/aa021199.htm >T4 levels can be ‘normal’, but T3 can be lacking. Addition of T3 was more >helpful then just the regular T4 Synthroid supplimentation. >Here are further data to back this up. Also, Dr. Joffe, who is mentioned >below, treated me in the hospital, and was very open to exploring ALL >avenues for me to get better. That *should* be the intent of all doctors and >psychiatrists, and without it, seems to be the reason so many are having a >hard time because their doctor only thinks some simple ‘traditional’ method >is the only thing that will work. >My life was on the line, as are many others, and there is very little room >for a ‘conservative’ approach, especially with the research out there. >Am J Psychiatry 2000 Oct;157(10):1689-91 Related Articles, Books, LinkOut >Thyroid hormone levels and recurrence of major depression. >Joffe RT, Marriott M. >Mood Disorders Program and Department of Psychiatry, Faculty of Health >Sciences, McMaster University, Hamilton, Ontario, Canada. >OBJECTIVE: The relationship between basal thyroid hormone levels and acute >antidepressant response has been studied, but any relationship between basal >thyroid hormone levels and long-term course of depressive illness has not >been evaluated. METHOD: The authors used a Cox regression survival analysis >to evaluate the relationship between life course of depressive illness and >basal levels of thyroid hormones (triiodothyronine [T(3)], thyroxine [T(4)], >and thyrotropin) in 75 outpatients with unipolar major depressive disorder. >RESULTS: Time to recurrence of major depression was inversely related to >T(3) levels but not to T(4) levels. CONCLUSIONS: These data may be of >clinical interest in view of the fact that T(3) is used to augment >antidepressant response. >J Clin Psychiatry 2001 Mar;62(3):169-73 Related Articles, Books >Triiodothyronine augmentation of selective serotonin reuptake inhibitors in >posttraumatic stress disorder. >Agid O, Shalev AY, Lerer B. >Department of Psychiatry, Hadassah-Hebrew University Medical Center, >BACKGROUND: There is considerable comorbidity of major depression and >posttraumatic stress disorder (PTSD), and antidepressants have been reported >to be effective in treating PTSD. Addition of triiodothyronine (T3) to >ongoing antidepressant treatment is considered an effective augmentation >strategy in refractory depression. We report the effect of T3 augmentation >of antidepressants in patients with PTSD. METHOD: T3 (25 microg/day) was >added to treatment with a selective serotonin reuptake inhibitor (SSRI) >(paroxetine or fluoxetine, 20 mg/day for at least 4 weeks and 40 mg/day for >a further 4 weeks) of 5 patients who fulfilled DSM-IV criteria for PTSD but >not for major depressive disorder (although all patients had significant >depressive symptoms). The Clinician-Administered PTSD Scale, the 21-item >Hamilton Rating Scale for Depression, and the Clinical Global >Impressions-Severity of Illness scale were administered every 2 weeks, and >self-assessments were performed with a 100 mm visual analog mood scale. >RESULTS: In 4 of the 5 patients, partial clinical improvement was observed >with SSRI treatment at a daily dose of 20 mg with little further improvement >when the dose was raised to 40 mg/day. This improvement was substantially >enhanced by the addition of T3. Improvement was most striking on the >Hamilton Rating Scale for Depression. CONCLUSION: T3 augmentation of SSRI >treatment may be of therapeutic benefit in patients with PTSD, particularly >those with depressive symptoms. Larger samples and controlled studies are >needed in order to confirm this observation. >I’d suggest a simple Medline search with the words T3 and depression, and >you will find much of this and extensive data on the issue. >I suggest a simple Medline search on thyroid function tests to see which >tests, and in what order, doctors order them to determine if there is a >problem with thyroid function. I found that doctors vary in the way they >approach ordering thyroid function tests. As far as I am able to determine, >there is still no consensus on this, and probably won’t be because new >generations of each test continue to appear. >and not suprisingly, many a.d.s, even the SSRI’s, have an effect on these >levels. Even as a trial, it will not hurt if your doc adds a very, very >small trial of T3 to your med. This is also even more true when on Lithium, >as this med can have an effect on thyroid. >The only reason to add anything to an antidepressant is because it is >indicated. >WRONG. Not according to the above research. Do we just give Beta Blockers to >people with heart problems? No. >Don’t follow your reasoning on that one. There should always be a good >reason to give any person a med. All meds carry risks. >ALso, try to get hormone levels measured, as well as DHEA levels. If there >are problems with these, that have been in fact showing up a fair bit with >SSRI’s, your doc can provide small doses if needed. This can make a *world* >of difference. >Which hormones do you recommend get measured? They’re are hundreds of them. >Yes…very good. Did you learn that in school? Your doctor will know what >hormones to measure. >You just got through saying doctors didn’t know which thyroid function tests >to order. But you do. >They will check for not only testosterone and estrogen, but adrenal output. >There are a few different methods for correcting adrenal output >problems.(Endocr Res. 2000 Nov;26(4):505-11.; ) (Br J Psychiatry. 2000 >Feb;176:142-9.) (;Biol Psychiatry. 2000 Nov 15;48(10):989-95.) >(Psychoneuroendocrinology. 2000 Nov;25(8):765-71.) >For many, the only way to get better is search, fight, and aggresively >explore every possible avenue. Many augmentation and additional strategies >seem to be put down by many conventional doctors, but good reserach >psychopharmacologists are working overtime to help the massive amount of >treatment resistance out there. >I’ve never found that psychiatrists were adverse to augmentation strategies. >I’ve had three myself: desipramine, lithium, and a stimulant. >Just because you weren’t helped by any doesn’t mean you have the right to >take it away or deny it from others. Too many come on here acting like the >are the "Cheif Skeptics", researchers, and can deny and put down any >methodologies. Bullshit. We are all equals on here…and nobody is forcing >anyone to do *anything*. We do have a right to know if there is any >indicative evidence, and our *doctor* NOT YOU, will decide. >Jay (AKA James MacLachlan.) I’ve been on this board for many years, and have >never seen this kind of negative crap. >I’m unclear why you construe people disagreeing with your viewpoints as >negative crap. >Chip >p.s. this is my last post on this subject
Response:
>The problem with most thryroid tests your doc gives you is it doesn’t >usually give a good picture of the importance of how well your thyroid is >working. They measure T4 thyroid levels, but that just doesn’t cut it. >Docs order all kinds of different thyroid tests.
WRONG. If you read enough of the literature and textbooks, you will find each endocrinologist has his own approach to ordering thryroid tests. And psychiatrists have even more thryoid function tests they like to order than endocrinologists. 1)Not all doctors (R. Hedeya, 1996 "Biological Psychiatry") perform the following which CAN be indicative of hypothyroidism: a)Measure TSH (The most common test..but not the most effective) b)Measure free T4 c) Measure free T3. Treatment is required even if TSH is normal, but others aren’t. (L. Bartelina et al Journal of Clinical Endocrinilogyand Metabolism 70, 1990; 293) A TRH (Thyroid Releasing Hormone) stimulation test can also determine hypothyroidism.. Using either T3, or T3 and T4 is most effective in paitients who have even a *mild* hypothyroidism with antidepressant meds. (New England Journal of Medicine , 340, No. 6, Feb 11, 1999; 424-29) >T3 covers more bases in your thyroid function, >T3 covers one base: T3 level.
Yes, BUT, in *normal* thyoid function, only a small amount of T3 is converted from T4. According to a study in The New England Journal of Medicine (http://thyroid.about.com/health/thyroid/library/weekly/aa021199.htm T4 levels can be ‘normal’, but T3 can be lacking. Addition of T3 was more helpful then just the regular T4 Synthroid supplimentation. Here are further data to back this up. Also, Dr. Joffe, who is mentioned below, treated me in the hospital, and was very open to exploring ALL avenues for me to get better. That *should* be the intent of all doctors and psychiatrists, and without it, seems to be the reason so many are having a hard time because their doctor only thinks some simple ‘traditional’ method is the only thing that will work. My life was on the line, as are many others, and there is very little room for a ‘conservative’ approach, especially with the research out there. Am J Psychiatry 2000 Oct;157(10):1689-91 Related Articles, Books, LinkOut Thyroid hormone levels and recurrence of major depression. Joffe RT, Marriott M. Mood Disorders Program and Department of Psychiatry, Faculty of Health Sciences, McMaster University, Hamilton, Ontario, Canada. OBJECTIVE: The relationship between basal thyroid hormone levels and acute antidepressant response has been studied, but any relationship between basal thyroid hormone levels and long-term course of depressive illness has not been evaluated. METHOD: The authors used a Cox regression survival analysis to evaluate the relationship between life course of depressive illness and basal levels of thyroid hormones (triiodothyronine [T(3)], thyroxine [T(4)], and thyrotropin) in 75 outpatients with unipolar major depressive disorder. RESULTS: Time to recurrence of major depression was inversely related to T(3) levels but not to T(4) levels. CONCLUSIONS: These data may be of clinical interest in view of the fact that T(3) is used to augment antidepressant response. J Clin Psychiatry 2001 Mar;62(3):169-73 Related Articles, Books Triiodothyronine augmentation of selective serotonin reuptake inhibitors in posttraumatic stress disorder. Agid O, Shalev AY, Lerer B. Department of Psychiatry, Hadassah-Hebrew University Medical Center, BACKGROUND: There is considerable comorbidity of major depression and posttraumatic stress disorder (PTSD), and antidepressants have been reported to be effective in treating PTSD. Addition of triiodothyronine (T3) to ongoing antidepressant treatment is considered an effective augmentation strategy in refractory depression. We report the effect of T3 augmentation of antidepressants in patients with PTSD. METHOD: T3 (25 microg/day) was added to treatment with a selective serotonin reuptake inhibitor (SSRI) (paroxetine or fluoxetine, 20 mg/day for at least 4 weeks and 40 mg/day for a further 4 weeks) of 5 patients who fulfilled DSM-IV criteria for PTSD but not for major depressive disorder (although all patients had significant depressive symptoms). The Clinician-Administered PTSD Scale, the 21-item Hamilton Rating Scale for Depression, and the Clinical Global Impressions-Severity of Illness scale were administered every 2 weeks, and self-assessments were performed with a 100 mm visual analog mood scale. RESULTS: In 4 of the 5 patients, partial clinical improvement was observed with SSRI treatment at a daily dose of 20 mg with little further improvement when the dose was raised to 40 mg/day. This improvement was substantially enhanced by the addition of T3. Improvement was most striking on the Hamilton Rating Scale for Depression. CONCLUSION: T3 augmentation of SSRI treatment may be of therapeutic benefit in patients with PTSD, particularly those with depressive symptoms. Larger samples and controlled studies are needed in order to confirm this observation. I’d suggest a simple Medline search with the words T3 and depression, and you will find much of this and extensive data on the issue. I suggest a simple Medline search on thyroid function tests to see which tests, and in what order, doctors order them to determine if there is a problem with thyroid function. I found that doctors vary in the way they approach ordering thyroid function tests. As far as I am able to determine, there is still no consensus on this, and probably won’t be because new generations of each test continue to appear. >and not suprisingly, many a.d.s, even the SSRI’s, have an effect on these >levels. Even as a trial, it will not hurt if your doc adds a very, very >small trial of T3 to your med. This is also even more true when on Lithium, >as this med can have an effect on thyroid. >The only reason to add anything to an antidepressant is because it is >indicated.
WRONG. Not according to the above research. Do we just give Beta Blockers to people with heart problems? No. Don’t follow your reasoning on that one. There should always be a good reason to give any person a med. All meds carry risks. >ALso, try to get hormone levels measured, as well as DHEA levels. If there >are problems with these, that have been in fact showing up a fair bit with >SSRI’s, your doc can provide small doses if needed. This can make a *world* >of difference. >Which hormones do you recommend get measured? They’re are hundreds of them.
Yes…very good. Did you learn that in school? Your doctor will know what hormones to measure. You just got through saying doctors didn’t know which thyroid function tests to order. But you do. They will check for not only testosterone and estrogen, but adrenal output. There are a few different methods for correcting adrenal output problems.(Endocr Res. 2000 Nov;26(4):505-11.; ) (Br J Psychiatry. 2000 Feb;176:142-9.) (;Biol Psychiatry. 2000 Nov 15;48(10):989-95.) (Psychoneuroendocrinology. 2000 Nov;25(8):765-71.) For many, the only way to get better is search, fight, and aggresively explore every possible avenue. Many augmentation and additional strategies seem to be put down by many conventional doctors, but good reserach psychopharmacologists are working overtime to help the massive amount of treatment resistance out there. I’ve never found that psychiatrists were adverse to augmentation strategies. I’ve had three myself: desipramine, lithium, and a stimulant. Just because you weren’t helped by any doesn’t mean you have the right to take it away or deny it from others. Too many come on here acting like the are the "Cheif Skeptics", researchers, and can deny and put down any methodologies. Bullshit. We are all equals on here…and nobody is forcing anyone to do *anything*. We do have a right to know if there is any indicative evidence, and our *doctor* NOT YOU, will decide. Jay (AKA James MacLachlan.) I’ve been on this board for many years, and have never seen this kind of negative crap. I’m unclear why you construe people disagreeing with your viewpoints as negative crap. Chip p.s. this is my last post on this subject
Response:
The problem with most thryroid tests your doc gives you is it doesn’t usually give a good picture of the importance of how well your thyroid is working. They measure T4 thyroid levels, but that just doesn’t cut it. T3 covers more bases in your thyroid function, and not suprisingly, many a.d.s, even the SSRI’s, have an effect on these levels. Even as a trial, it will not hurt if your doc adds a very, very small trial of T3 to your med. This is also even more true when on Lithium, as this med can have an effect on thyroid. ALso, try to get hormone levels measured, as well as DHEA levels. If there are problems with these, that have been in fact showing up a fair bit with SSRI’s, your doc can provide small doses if needed. This can make a *world* of difference.
Response:
When you are tested for thyroid, be sure you are tested for FREE T3. That’s the level in your blood. My production and re-uptake of thyroid was good, and I had to get really pushy to get the test I needed, since it was already "proven" I wasn’t lacking in thyroid. Christina
The problem with most thryroid tests your doc gives you is it doesn’t usually give a good picture of the importance of how well your thyroid is working. They measure T4 thyroid levels, but that just doesn’t cut it. T3 covers more bases in your thyroid function, and not suprisingly, many a.d.s, even the SSRI’s, have an effect on these levels. Even as a trial, it will not hurt if your doc adds a very, very small trial of T3 to your med. This is also even more true when on Lithium, as this med can have an effect on thyroid. ALso, try to get hormone levels measured, as well as DHEA levels. If there are problems with these, that have been in fact showing up a fair bit with SSRI’s, your doc can provide small doses if needed. This can make a *world* of difference.
Response:
I’ve had a thyroid problem (a growth on the gland, destroyed with radiation, no meds for thyroid) and I have my TH3 checked every year, just to make sure my thyroid is still working. The doctor always calls it a TH3 and I’ve never heard him say they were doing a TH4…. Just my 2 cents… — Kathy – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> When you are tested for thyroid, be sure you are tested for FREE T3. That’s > the level in your blood. My production and re-uptake of thyroid was good, > and I had to get really pushy to get the test I needed, since it was already > "proven" I wasn’t lacking in thyroid. > Christina > The problem with most thryroid tests your doc gives you is it doesn’t > usually give a good picture of the importance of how well your thyroid is > working. They measure T4 thyroid levels, but that just doesn’t cut it. > T3 covers more bases in your thyroid function, and not suprisingly, many > a.d.s, even the SSRI’s, have an effect on these levels. Even as a trial, it > will not hurt if your doc adds a very, very small trial of T3 to your med. > This is also even more true when on Lithium, as this med can have an effect > on thyroid. > ALso, try to get hormone levels measured, as well as DHEA levels. If there > are problems with these, that have been in fact showing up a fair bit with > SSRI’s, your doc can provide small doses if needed. This can make a *world* > of difference.
Response:
The problem with most thryroid tests your doc gives you is it doesn’t usually give a good picture of the importance of how well your thyroid is working. They measure T4 thyroid levels, but that just doesn’t cut it. Docs order all kinds of different thyroid tests. T3 covers more bases in your thyroid function, T3 covers one base: T3 level. and not suprisingly, many a.d.s, even the SSRI’s, have an effect on these levels. Even as a trial, it will not hurt if your doc adds a very, very small trial of T3 to your med. This is also even more true when on Lithium, as this med can have an effect on thyroid. The only reason to add anything to an antidepressant is because it is indicated. ALso, try to get hormone levels measured, as well as DHEA levels. If there are problems with these, that have been in fact showing up a fair bit with SSRI’s, your doc can provide small doses if needed. This can make a *world* of difference. Which hormones do you recommend get measured? They’re are hundreds of them. Chip
Response:
>The problem with most thryroid tests your doc gives you is it doesn’t >usually give a good picture of the importance of how well your thyroid is >working. They measure T4 thyroid levels, but that just doesn’t cut it. >Docs order all kinds of different thyroid tests.
WRONG. 1)Not all doctors (R. Hedeya, 1996 "Biological Psychiatry") perform the following which CAN be indicative of hypothyroidism: a)Measure TSH (The most common test..but not the most effective) b)Measure free T4 c) Measure free T3. Treatment is required even if TSH is normal, but others aren’t. (L. Bartelina et al Journal of Clinical Endocrinilogyand Metabolism 70, 1990; 293) A TRH (Thyroid Releasing Hormone) stimulation test can also determine hypothyroidism.. Using either T3, or T3 and T4 is most effective in paitients who have even a *mild* hypothyroidism with antidepressant meds. (New England Journal of Medicine , 340, No. 6, Feb 11, 1999; 424-29) >T3 covers more bases in your thyroid function, >T3 covers one base: T3 level.
Yes, BUT, in *normal* thyoid function, only a small amount of T3 is converted from T4. According to a study in The New England Journal of Medicine (http://thyroid.about.com/health/thyroid/library/weekly/aa021199.htm T4 levels can be ‘normal’, but T3 can be lacking. Addition of T3 was more helpful then just the regular T4 Synthroid supplimentation. Here are further data to back this up. Also, Dr. Joffe, who is mentioned below, treated me in the hospital, and was very open to exploring ALL avenues for me to get better. That *should* be the intent of all doctors and psychiatrists, and without it, seems to be the reason so many are having a hard time because their doctor only thinks some simple ‘traditional’ method is the only thing that will work. My life was on the line, as are many others, and there is very little room for a ‘conservative’ approach, especially with the research out there. Am J Psychiatry 2000 Oct;157(10):1689-91 Related Articles, Books, LinkOut Thyroid hormone levels and recurrence of major depression. Joffe RT, Marriott M. OBJECTIVE: The relationship between basal thyroid hormone levels and acute antidepressant response has been studied, but any relationship between basal thyroid hormone levels and long-term course of depressive illness has not been evaluated. METHOD: The authors used a Cox regression survival analysis to evaluate the relationship between life course of depressive illness and basal levels of thyroid hormones (triiodothyronine [T(3)], thyroxine [T(4)], and thyrotropin) in 75 outpatients with unipolar major depressive disorder. RESULTS: Time to recurrence of major depression was inversely related to T(3) levels but not to T(4) levels. CONCLUSIONS: These data may be of clinical interest in view of the fact that T(3) is used to augment antidepressant response. J Clin Psychiatry 2001 Mar;62(3):169-73 Related Articles, Books Triiodothyronine augmentation of selective serotonin reuptake inhibitors in posttraumatic stress disorder. Agid O, Shalev AY, Lerer B. BACKGROUND: There is considerable comorbidity of major depression and posttraumatic stress disorder (PTSD), and antidepressants have been reported to be effective in treating PTSD. Addition of triiodothyronine (T3) to ongoing antidepressant treatment is considered an effective augmentation strategy in refractory depression. We report the effect of T3 augmentation of antidepressants in patients with PTSD. METHOD: T3 (25 microg/day) was added to treatment with a selective serotonin reuptake inhibitor (SSRI) (paroxetine or fluoxetine, 20 mg/day for at least 4 weeks and 40 mg/day for a further 4 weeks) of 5 patients who fulfilled DSM-IV criteria for PTSD but not for major depressive disorder (although all patients had significant depressive symptoms). The Clinician-Administered PTSD Scale, the 21-item Hamilton Rating Scale for Depression, and the Clinical Global Impressions-Severity of Illness scale were administered every 2 weeks, and self-assessments were performed with a 100 mm visual analog mood scale. RESULTS: In 4 of the 5 patients, partial clinical improvement was observed with SSRI treatment at a daily dose of 20 mg with little further improvement when the dose was raised to 40 mg/day. This improvement was substantially enhanced by the addition of T3. Improvement was most striking on the Hamilton Rating Scale for Depression. CONCLUSION: T3 augmentation of SSRI treatment may be of therapeutic benefit in patients with PTSD, particularly those with depressive symptoms. Larger samples and controlled studies are needed in order to confirm this observation. I’d suggest a simple Medline search with the words T3 and depression, and you will find much of this and extensive data on the issue. >and not suprisingly, many a.d.s, even the SSRI’s, have an effect on these >levels. Even as a trial, it will not hurt if your doc adds a very, very >small trial of T3 to your med. This is also even more true when on Lithium, >as this med can have an effect on thyroid. >The only reason to add anything to an antidepressant is because it is >indicated.
WRONG. Not according to the above research. Do we just give Beta Blockers to people with heart problems? No. >ALso, try to get hormone levels measured, as well as DHEA levels. If there >are problems with these, that have been in fact showing up a fair bit with >SSRI’s, your doc can provide small doses if needed. This can make a *world* >of difference. >Which hormones do you recommend get measured? They’re are hundreds of them.
Yes…very good. Did you learn that in school? Your doctor will know what hormones to measure. They will check for not only testosterone and estrogen, but adrenal output. There are a few different methods for correcting adrenal output problems.(Endocr Res. 2000 Nov;26(4):505-11.; ) (Br J Psychiatry. 2000 Feb;176:142-9.) (;Biol Psychiatry. 2000 Nov 15;48(10):989-95.) (Psychoneuroendocrinology. 2000 Nov;25(8):765-71.) For many, the only way to get better is search, fight, and aggresively explore every possible avenue. Many augmentation and additional strategies seem to be put down by many conventional doctors, but good reserach psychopharmacologists are working overtime to help the massive amount of treatment resistance out there. Just because you weren’t helped by any doesn’t mean you have the right to take it away or deny it from others. Too many come on here acting like the are the "Cheif Skeptics", researchers, and can deny and put down any methodologies. Bullshit. We are all equals on here…and nobody is forcing anyone to do *anything*. We do have a right to know if there is any indicative evidence, and our *doctor* NOT YOU, will decide. Jay (AKA James MacLachlan.) I’ve been on this board for many years, and have never seen this kind of negative crap. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text ->Chip
Response:
…. no side effects….. no dramatic effect on the bipolar either, but that i think will take some time… >im only hoping it was my ssri’s and not the >lamictal that caused me to go manic this morning, im pretty convinced it >was… > Well, I hope so too.. 
… > Knuffel 
But I guess I’m okay