SSRIs

Question:

>>hope you’re doing okay too hon, glad you got the lithium sorted out >im up to 50mg lamictal now, he says thats a basic therapeutic dose so we >shall see what happens… > I’m sooooo curious..

so far so good …. no side effects….. no dramatic effect on the bipolar either, but that i think will take some time… >im only hoping it was my ssri’s and not the >lamictal that caused me to go manic this morning, im pretty convinced it >was… > Well, I hope so too..

it hasnt happened again… i think it was a manic episode thats been building up, aggravated by taking 3 ssris on an empty stomach and then getting low blood sugar from not eating (which always makes me manic)… > BTW: do you also take benzo’s to sleep? I just did, that’s why i think of > it.. > I really enyoy this posting late at night, but I think I’d better go to bed > earlier. > Stupid thing is that I was tired all evening, but around midnight, when i > wanted to go to sleep, I finally felt energy..and I enyoy that…

yeah.. i know the feeling… i stay up too late because i feel like shit during the day but feel great after midnight, and of course that winds up the BP more and more…. i take benzos very rarely for sleep – mainly cos it could easily get habit forming – but if i’ve had a really bad nightmare that leaves me having panic attack as i wake, i take one.. or sometimes if i just cant sleep and im desperate and tense.. (but usually i just turn on the laptop computer and write … > Knuffel

en een dikke knuffel terug! m~ — free the cheese!!!

Response:

"ME" wrote > Hi hi hi, > Yeah. Good to be back, good to *see* all of you. > After a few no-connection-days, I went to my boyriend, stayed there for a > week, and now I’m back home (and I took my boyfriend with me).

Kewl Say hello from me > Well, last months was a bit down, but I’m getting better and better and took > my studybooks again today.. Didn’t do much, but I’m very very happy that I > care about studying, that I try…

Aww hon that’s so great – I am so happy for you > I probably had some problems lately because my lithiumlevel was to high, but > from now on things can only get better!!!

Yeah ) > By the way: i love ansewering questions (especially because i do not have > much to say today, so answering is easier..) > How are you doing now?? (i read you were doing not so well)

Yeah… welll…. I had a ugly mixed episode and then a crash – sorta recovering from that now. At the moment I’m really tired and slow because I have a fever and a nasty cold.  But I guess I’m okay And the sun’s out Warm huggles, TK

Response:

> hey its really nice to hear things are still going so well with you and > your boyfriend … not such good news from my side, we split up 4-5 > months ago, oh well, still good friends tho

Ohhh… I’m so sorry to hear that..(((((((((((((((((((((((((m))))))))))))))))))))))))) – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – > m – liberating cheese while waiting for my life’s work to copy itself > across the network to the desktop machine…. arggh…. i love this > computing stuff really…. (sometimes?)….. >>yeah lovely to see you back >>m~ > Thanks!!! ((((((((((((((((((((((m))))))))))))))))))))) >>>{{{{ Marie-Elise }}}}} >>>Hey it’s great to see you again!!! – so good your connection is okay now > >>>Where have you been? Did you stay with your boyfriend? >>>Any news? Wow are you? >>>Lots of questions? Do you mind? >>>Hugggggggs, >>>TK >>– >>free the cheese!!! > — > free the cheese!

Response:

>>hey its really nice to hear things are still going so well with you and >your boyfriend … not such good news from my side, we split up 4-5 >months ago, oh well, still good friends tho > Ohhh… I’m so sorry to hear > that..(((((((((((((((((((((((((m)))))))))))))))))))))))))

thanks hon… its okay now… it was pretty devastating at the time tho,   was a major part of why i had that huge depressive breakdown… but im okay now…. well, too okay, still quite high, but not buzzing like earlier! got the network going too… yay! hope you’re doing okay too hon, glad you got the lithium sorted out im up to 50mg lamictal now, he says thats a basic therapeutic dose so we shall see what happens… im only hoping it was my ssri’s and not the lamictal that caused me to go manic this morning, im pretty convinced it was… well ive been heading for a manic phase for a while, my pdoc commented on it and suggested i cut out one of my ssri tablets if i get too high… huggles m~ — free the cheese!

Response:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text ->>hey its really nice to hear things are still going so well with you and >>your boyfriend … not such good news from my side, we split up 4-5 >>months ago, oh well, still good friends tho > Ohhh… I’m so sorry to hear > that..(((((((((((((((((((((((((m))))))))))))))))))))))))) > thanks hon… its okay now… it was pretty devastating at the time tho, >   was a major part of why i had that huge depressive breakdown… but im > okay now…. well, too okay, still quite high, but not buzzing like > earlier! got the network going too… yay! > hope you’re doing okay too hon, glad you got the lithium sorted out > im up to 50mg lamictal now, he says thats a basic therapeutic dose so we > shall see what happens…

I’m sooooo curious.. >im only hoping it was my ssri’s and not the >lamictal that caused me to go manic this morning, im pretty convinced it >was…

Well, I hope so too.. >well ive been heading for a manic phase for a while, my pdoc >commented on it and suggested i cut out one of my ssri tablets if i get > too high…

BTW: do you also take benzo’s to sleep? I just did, that’s why i think of it.. I really enyoy this posting late at night, but I think I’d better go to bed earlier. Stupid thing is that I was tired all evening, but around midnight, when i wanted to go to sleep, I finally felt energy..and I enyoy that… Knuffel – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> huggles > m~ > — > free the cheese!

Response:

{{{{ Marie-Elise }}}}} Hey it’s great to see you again!!! – so good your connection is okay now Where have you been? Did you stay with your boyfriend? Any news? Wow are you? Lots of questions? Do you mind? Hugggggggs, TK

Response:

yeah lovely to see you back m~ > {{{{ Marie-Elise }}}}} > Hey it’s great to see you again!!! – so good your connection is okay now > Where have you been? Did you stay with your boyfriend? > Any news? Wow are you? > Lots of questions? Do you mind? > Hugggggggs, > TK

– free the cheese!!!

Response:

Hi hi hi, Yeah. Good to be back, good to *see* all of you. After a few no-connection-days, I went to my boyriend, stayed there for a week, and now I’m back home (and I took my boyfriend with me).. Well, last months was a bit down, but I’m getting better and better and took my studybooks again today.. Didn’t do much, but I’m very very happy that I care about studying, that I try… I probably had some problems lately because my lithiumlevel was to high, but from now on things can only get better!!! By the way: i love ansewering questions (especially because i do not have much to say today, so answering is easier..) How are you doing now?? (i read you were doing not so well) (((((((((((((((((((((((TK)))))))))))))))))))))))))) – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> {{{{ Marie-Elise }}}}} > Hey it’s great to see you again!!! – so good your connection is okay now > Where have you been? Did you stay with your boyfriend? > Any news? Wow are you? > Lots of questions? Do you mind? > Hugggggggs, > TK

Response:

> yeah lovely to see you back > m~

Thanks!!! ((((((((((((((((((((((m))))))))))))))))))))) – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> {{{{ Marie-Elise }}}}} > Hey it’s great to see you again!!! – so good your connection is okay now > Where have you been? Did you stay with your boyfriend? > Any news? Wow are you? > Lots of questions? Do you mind? > Hugggggggs, > TK > — > free the cheese!!!

Response:

hey its really nice to hear things are still going so well with you and your boyfriend … not such good news from my side, we split up 4-5 months ago, oh well, still good friends tho m – liberating cheese while waiting for my life’s work to copy itself across the network to the desktop machine…. arggh…. i love this computing stuff really…. (sometimes?)….. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text ->yeah lovely to see you back >m~ > Thanks!!! ((((((((((((((((((((((m))))))))))))))))))))) >>{{{{ Marie-Elise }}}}} >>Hey it’s great to see you again!!! – so good your connection is okay now > >>Where have you been? Did you stay with your boyfriend? >>Any news? Wow are you? >>Lots of questions? Do you mind? >>Hugggggggs, >>TK >– >free the cheese!!!

– free the cheese!

Response:

Question:

I know an arse. Who thinks changing the clock is going to make this crap stick. Count Down Begins. why bother?

Response:

Just one opinion, but I think your conspiracy theory is absurd.

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> please correct your date.  You’re top-posting. > — > I know a man who saw God so clearly that he lost all faith. > — Aegidius of Assisi quoted in "The Silent Cry" by Dorothee Soelle > I hope that after I die, people will say of me: ‘That guy sure owed me a > lot > of money.’ > – Jack Handey > Dear Group > Greetings. I am a bipolar disordered individual who is finding this group > absolutely superb. Whereas most groups waste your time with irrelevancies > and indulgences, this group is substance to the max, and bears witness > therefore to the perception that we sufferers of bipolarity and allied > conditions lack nothing in depth. > I was only diagnosed last Nov. after a severe experience where depression > triggered a profound mystical opening (this has been the pattern of my > life). Essentially my perception is that what we ’suffer’ from is foremost > a > spiritual affliction, a kind of inability to adjust our frequencies to > those > of the majority, whose own more conditioned frequencies tend to fall > within > agreeable parameters for the easy management of the soceity > they create and further condition. > I feel very strongly – and you are most welcome to agree, disagree or > otherwise feed back – that the appearance of SSRIs such as Prozac and > other > such ‘upper downers’ (my term, I even wrote a song about it;) > are the establishment response to the challenge of the restlessness of the > middle class white population in the wake of the societal upheavals of the > late 60s and early 70s. Look at it this way (and this is highly > theoretical, > if a little too credible to dismiss): In the late 60s and early 70s the > unrest in the West, esp. in the West, amongst the white middle class – > which > was unprecedented in its style and content – must have been very > concerning > to the control structure. They had already started dealing with some > success > with the problems of > ethnic minority rebellion by running hard, highly addictive drugs into > inner > city areas, etc (this is now a matter of record) thus turning the > rebellious > energy in on itself. But what to do with the more ‘important’ middle class > strata of society, who were also showing signs of discontent and unease? > The control structure realised that different rules had to apply for this > latter group. Hence the arising of a new kind of addictive and, if > anything, > even more insidious kind of drug. A kind of drug that would desensitise, > render more submissive, and crucially undermine spiritual aspects of the > human being (which are causal in the kind of unrest seen as necessary to > suppress) whilst leaving most users able to function as needed for society > at large to continue to endorse and support the control structure. Eureka! > SSRIs! Prozac!! Cipramil!! Zispin!! Miracle drugs (sic) to treat > ‘depression’ which is in any case often just a nautral process of > spiritual > awakening where the initial symptoms of a change of awareness and > consciousness – the coming to awareness first of the negative energy > forms – > that would eventually, if treated intelligently, give way to new growth in > the mind, body and spirit, are instead hammered ruthlessly into clinical > negatives. > Is this mad raving? Conspiracy theory?? I doubt it. As a sufferer for a > quarter century from bipolarity I am not ‘blaming anybody’ and I am > realist. > All I am saying is that it seems a little uncanny that all these Prozac > drugs and their boosters appeared when they did. This is a form of > spiritual > warfare we’re seeing, and it is intensifying. The economic battle is won. > Now the battle for our souls has begun. Literally. Even TV, MTV, video > games, movies, and all the other paraphenalia of distraction has not been > enough to > deter awakening awareness at this time. The ‘drugs’ are the best hope > ‘they’ > have of making ‘us’ them. > Comments welcome…and thanx for a magnificent resource and > support…Cybermystic

Response:

Don’t forget the shadow prez is on prozac.

Response:

please correct your date.  You’re top-posting. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> — > I know a man who saw God so clearly that he lost all faith. > — Aegidius of Assisi quoted in "The Silent Cry" by Dorothee Soelle > I hope that after I die, people will say of me: ‘That guy sure owed me a lot > of money.’ > – Jack Handey > Dear Group > Greetings. I am a bipolar disordered individual who is finding this group > absolutely superb. Whereas most groups waste your time with irrelevancies > and indulgences, this group is substance to the max, and bears witness > therefore to the perception that we sufferers of bipolarity and allied > conditions lack nothing in depth. > I was only diagnosed last Nov. after a severe experience where depression > triggered a profound mystical opening (this has been the pattern of my > life). Essentially my perception is that what we ’suffer’ from is foremost a > spiritual affliction, a kind of inability to adjust our frequencies to those > of the majority, whose own more conditioned frequencies tend to fall within > agreeable parameters for the easy management of the soceity > they create and further condition. > I feel very strongly – and you are most welcome to agree, disagree or > otherwise feed back – that the appearance of SSRIs such as Prozac and other > such ‘upper downers’ (my term, I even wrote a song about it;) > are the establishment response to the challenge of the restlessness of the > middle class white population in the wake of the societal upheavals of the > late 60s and early 70s. Look at it this way (and this is highly theoretical, > if a little too credible to dismiss): In the late 60s and early 70s the > unrest in the West, esp. in the West, amongst the white middle class – which > was unprecedented in its style and content – must have been very concerning > to the control structure. They had already started dealing with some success > with the problems of > ethnic minority rebellion by running hard, highly addictive drugs into inner > city areas, etc (this is now a matter of record) thus turning the rebellious > energy in on itself. But what to do with the more ‘important’ middle class > strata of society, who were also showing signs of discontent and unease? > The control structure realised that different rules had to apply for this > latter group. Hence the arising of a new kind of addictive and, if anything, > even more insidious kind of drug. A kind of drug that would desensitise, > render more submissive, and crucially undermine spiritual aspects of the > human being (which are causal in the kind of unrest seen as necessary to > suppress) whilst leaving most users able to function as needed for society > at large to continue to endorse and support the control structure. Eureka! > SSRIs! Prozac!! Cipramil!! Zispin!! Miracle drugs (sic) to treat > ‘depression’ which is in any case often just a nautral process of spiritual > awakening where the initial symptoms of a change of awareness and > consciousness – the coming to awareness first of the negative energy forms – > that would eventually, if treated intelligently, give way to new growth in > the mind, body and spirit, are instead hammered ruthlessly into clinical > negatives. > Is this mad raving? Conspiracy theory?? I doubt it. As a sufferer for a > quarter century from bipolarity I am not ‘blaming anybody’ and I am realist. > All I am saying is that it seems a little uncanny that all these Prozac > drugs and their boosters appeared when they did. This is a form of spiritual > warfare we’re seeing, and it is intensifying. The economic battle is won. > Now the battle for our souls has begun. Literally. Even TV, MTV, video > games, movies, and all the other paraphenalia of distraction has not been > enough to > deter awakening awareness at this time. The ‘drugs’ are the best hope ‘they’ > have of making ‘us’ them. > Comments welcome…and thanx for a magnificent resource and > support…Cybermystic

Response:

Smell the fart.

Response:

Way past China’s Shore.

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Steps" >Smell the fart. > Clear across the Sea?? > — > "Caution, the surgeon general has found that psychiatric > treatements cause poverty and mental illness."

Response:

Question:

Thanks for your post, Rob, I’m manic without the depressive, myself but usually go with bipolar for ease of communication.  Most folks have heard of bipolar.  I salute (and envy a little)you for accepting your reality and becoming deciding to stick with your medicine at such an early age. I could have saved myself decades if I had become med compliant at your age.  But then, 27 years ago, the medicinal choices were not what they are now.  I also take Zyprexa and it is a godsend.  I take less Depakote now and less medicine for my ocd with it Peas akaSteve (Lose the puppy to email) – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text ->I don’t know how that username got there, but I just fixed it.. My name is >not "rocko" nor do I know a rocko.  I probably set the name as a handle >during the most recent psychosis. >Rob > You sound like myself from not so far back.  Fortunately, my opinion has > evolved after my 6th psychiatric hospitalization in the last 5 years. > I don’t know about you, but my problem every time is mania/psychosis >rather > than depression (which is a problem unto itself).  What I do know is that > Zyprexa, an atypical antipsychotic, does in deed help restore my sanity >and > keep me there.  That being the case, biological psychiatry does indeed >seem > to have a basis in (my) reality. > During my most recent episode, I lost my job due to fear of going to a new > office location (I feared they were going to literally hang me).  At the > same time, I spent thousands of dollars on credit cards.  I was playing >bad > music at maximum volume despite the cries of my parents to turn it down > (they went as far as breaking my door and I still continued).  I, being >all > knowing, decided that I (even unemployed) was going to take over the cable > bill so I went and put the service in my name and added a service to the > bill (which, forunately, they were able to undo).  Later, when the >ambulance > took me to the psych emergency room, I refused to sit in a chair (only on > the floor or on a desk).  While there, I asked for water to drink, and >wound > up throwing the water onto a radio which was quietly playing music.  They > had to tie me down and inject me with a substance which I was told was a >mix > of Benadryl with Haldol. > Now I wonder what the hell I was doing or thinking.  I know that is not >me. > Or at least I hope that was not me.  It was, but it wasn’t. > It’s my sincere hope that mental illness does exist because it’s the only > explanation I now have for the way I was behaving.  It’s the only > explanation I have for why I’m so much in debt.  It’s the only explanation >I > have for why I’m 27 years old and living in my parents house after twice > moving out since college.  It’s the only explanation I have…. period. > -Rob > > The kind of "thinking" that goes on in these biopsychiatry posts is so > > overloaded with ignorance of neurochemistry, fallacies about what > > conclusions follow from what premises, groundless assertions, > > breathtaking leaps of illogic, wishful thinking, appeals to authority, > > and just flat-out horseshit that it’s hard to know where to even begin > > dismantling them. > > It’s just astounding that people believe this stuff.  Scratch that — > > it’s astounding that people think this stuff even *means* anything. > > Cortisol levels?  Oxidative stress?  Neurotransmitters?  Huh?  Do these > > people just believe whatever they’re told? > > Christ.  Basing your life around a cesspool of fantasy being passed off > > as "science" is really not the best approach to living. > > Here’s the truth: no one has any idea how the brain works.  No one has > > any idea how psychotropic drugs work.  There are no "mental illnesses." > > Talking about "serotonin levels" as if you could put a dipstick in your > > brain and measure them is laughable.  Don’t be such a bunch of suckers. > > The relationship between consciousness and neurochemistry probably won’t > > be unraveled with another thousand years of research. > > Just for starters (assuming anyone is willing to think):  When SSRIs >were > > new, we were supposed to believe that they corrected the specific > > "chemical imbalance" that "caused" depression.  They were "selective." > > Leaving aside the fact that (1) pharmacodynamic selectivity was > > deliberately conflated with selectivity for mood states for marketing > > purposes, (2) the causality between neurochemistry and consciousness > > isn’t even *slightly* understood, and (3) the phrase "chemical >imbalance" > > doesn’t actually mean anything, we are now supposed to believe that >these > > drugs also "cure" "generalized anxiety disorder," "post-traumatic stress > > disorder," "obsessive-compulsive disorder," "social anxiety disorder," >an > > d even fucking PMS for god’s sake.  Wow.  That sounds *really* > > "selective."  What are the odds that the same "chemical imbalance" is > > responsible for virtually every feeling that someone doesn’t like? > > How does "zero" sound? > > Stop being such a bunch of idiots being led around by the nose.  Smart > > people buy drug company stock.  Dumb people buy drug company products. > > This is because there are always more dumb people than smart people. > > — > > ETF

Response:

Yes indeed!  The original poster is way off base.  I was severely depressed as a teenager and went through talk therapy with no improvement.  My first year in college I finally saw a psychiatrist who prescribed Prozac.  It was the difference between night and day.  This leads me to believe that there is some type of biochemical component to mental illness and I do not feel that I am being led around by the nose.  If the medication had not worked that would be a different story.

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> You sound like myself from not so far back.  Fortunately, my opinion has > evolved after my 6th psychiatric hospitalization in the last 5 years. > I don’t know about you, but my problem every time is mania/psychosis rather > than depression (which is a problem unto itself).  What I do know is that > Zyprexa, an atypical antipsychotic, does in deed help restore my sanity and > keep me there.  That being the case, biological psychiatry does indeed seem > to have a basis in (my) reality. > During my most recent episode, I lost my job due to fear of going to a new > office location (I feared they were going to literally hang me).  At the > same time, I spent thousands of dollars on credit cards.  I was playing bad > music at maximum volume despite the cries of my parents to turn it down > (they went as far as breaking my door and I still continued).  I, being all > knowing, decided that I (even unemployed) was going to take over the cable > bill so I went and put the service in my name and added a service to the > bill (which, forunately, they were able to undo).  Later, when the ambulance > took me to the psych emergency room, I refused to sit in a chair (only on > the floor or on a desk).  While there, I asked for water to drink, and wound > up throwing the water onto a radio which was quietly playing music.  They > had to tie me down and inject me with a substance which I was told was a mix > of Benadryl with Haldol. > Now I wonder what the hell I was doing or thinking.  I know that is not me. > Or at least I hope that was not me.  It was, but it wasn’t. > It’s my sincere hope that mental illness does exist because it’s the only > explanation I now have for the way I was behaving.  It’s the only > explanation I have for why I’m so much in debt.  It’s the only explanation I > have for why I’m 27 years old and living in my parents house after twice > moving out since college.  It’s the only explanation I have…. period. > -Rob > The kind of "thinking" that goes on in these biopsychiatry posts is so > overloaded with ignorance of neurochemistry, fallacies about what > conclusions follow from what premises, groundless assertions, > breathtaking leaps of illogic, wishful thinking, appeals to authority, > and just flat-out horseshit that it’s hard to know where to even begin > dismantling them. > It’s just astounding that people believe this stuff.  Scratch that — > it’s astounding that people think this stuff even *means* anything. > Cortisol levels?  Oxidative stress?  Neurotransmitters?  Huh?  Do these > people just believe whatever they’re told? > Christ.  Basing your life around a cesspool of fantasy being passed off > as "science" is really not the best approach to living. > Here’s the truth: no one has any idea how the brain works.  No one has > any idea how psychotropic drugs work.  There are no "mental illnesses." > Talking about "serotonin levels" as if you could put a dipstick in your > brain and measure them is laughable.  Don’t be such a bunch of suckers. > The relationship between consciousness and neurochemistry probably won’t > be unraveled with another thousand years of research. > Just for starters (assuming anyone is willing to think):  When SSRIs were > new, we were supposed to believe that they corrected the specific > "chemical imbalance" that "caused" depression.  They were "selective." > Leaving aside the fact that (1) pharmacodynamic selectivity was > deliberately conflated with selectivity for mood states for marketing > purposes, (2) the causality between neurochemistry and consciousness > isn’t even *slightly* understood, and (3) the phrase "chemical imbalance" > doesn’t actually mean anything, we are now supposed to believe that these > drugs also "cure" "generalized anxiety disorder," "post-traumatic stress > disorder," "obsessive-compulsive disorder," "social anxiety disorder," an > d even fucking PMS for god’s sake.  Wow.  That sounds *really* > "selective."  What are the odds that the same "chemical imbalance" is > responsible for virtually every feeling that someone doesn’t like? > How does "zero" sound? > Stop being such a bunch of idiots being led around by the nose.  Smart > people buy drug company stock.  Dumb people buy drug company products. > This is because there are always more dumb people than smart people. > — > ETF

Response:

hi Rob… mental illness is REAL, no need to doubt that. It’s a bitch/bastard having this illness. You do wind up questioning your sanity *grin* when you are having rough spots and even when you aren’t. Did something set off your most recent visit to the hospital? Don’t come down on yourself. Stick to whatever med/diet/etc. that helps you. I try to go with the thinking that if diabetic folks can take insulin, we can take what we need to stay healthy. I don’t think we should spend too much time determining whether or not a psychiatric diagnosis is valid – the person you replied to initially (ETF) was way off base. regards, Compucat  >^+^<

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> You sound like myself from not so far back.  Fortunately, my opinion has > evolved after my 6th psychiatric hospitalization in the last 5 years. > I don’t know about you, but my problem every time is mania/psychosis rather > than depression (which is a problem unto itself).  What I do know is that > Zyprexa, an atypical antipsychotic, does in deed help restore my sanity and > keep me there.  That being the case, biological psychiatry does indeed seem > to have a basis in (my) reality. > During my most recent episode, I lost my job due to fear of going to a new > office location (I feared they were going to literally hang me).  At the > same time, I spent thousands of dollars on credit cards.  I was playing bad > music at maximum volume despite the cries of my parents to turn it down > (they went as far as breaking my door and I still continued).  I, being all > knowing, decided that I (even unemployed) was going to take over the cable > bill so I went and put the service in my name and added a service to the > bill (which, forunately, they were able to undo).  Later, when the ambulance > took me to the psych emergency room, I refused to sit in a chair (only on > the floor or on a desk).  While there, I asked for water to drink, and wound > up throwing the water onto a radio which was quietly playing music.  They > had to tie me down and inject me with a substance which I was told was a mix > of Benadryl with Haldol. > Now I wonder what the hell I was doing or thinking.  I know that is not me. > Or at least I hope that was not me.  It was, but it wasn’t. > It’s my sincere hope that mental illness does exist because it’s the only > explanation I now have for the way I was behaving.  It’s the only > explanation I have for why I’m so much in debt.  It’s the only explanation I > have for why I’m 27 years old and living in my parents house after twice > moving out since college.  It’s the only explanation I have…. period. > -Rob > The kind of "thinking" that goes on in these biopsychiatry posts is so > overloaded with ignorance of neurochemistry, fallacies about what > conclusions follow from what premises, groundless assertions, > breathtaking leaps of illogic, wishful thinking, appeals to authority, > and just flat-out horseshit that it’s hard to know where to even begin > dismantling them. > It’s just astounding that people believe this stuff.  Scratch that — > it’s astounding that people think this stuff even *means* anything. > Cortisol levels?  Oxidative stress?  Neurotransmitters?  Huh?  Do these > people just believe whatever they’re told? > Christ.  Basing your life around a cesspool of fantasy being passed off > as "science" is really not the best approach to living. > Here’s the truth: no one has any idea how the brain works.  No one has > any idea how psychotropic drugs work.  There are no "mental illnesses." > Talking about "serotonin levels" as if you could put a dipstick in your > brain and measure them is laughable.  Don’t be such a bunch of suckers. > The relationship between consciousness and neurochemistry probably won’t > be unraveled with another thousand years of research. > Just for starters (assuming anyone is willing to think):  When SSRIs were > new, we were supposed to believe that they corrected the specific > "chemical imbalance" that "caused" depression.  They were "selective." > Leaving aside the fact that (1) pharmacodynamic selectivity was > deliberately conflated with selectivity for mood states for marketing > purposes, (2) the causality between neurochemistry and consciousness > isn’t even *slightly* understood, and (3) the phrase "chemical imbalance" > doesn’t actually mean anything, we are now supposed to believe that these > drugs also "cure" "generalized anxiety disorder," "post-traumatic stress > disorder," "obsessive-compulsive disorder," "social anxiety disorder," an > d even fucking PMS for god’s sake.  Wow.  That sounds *really* > "selective."  What are the odds that the same "chemical imbalance" is > responsible for virtually every feeling that someone doesn’t like? > How does "zero" sound? > Stop being such a bunch of idiots being led around by the nose.  Smart > people buy drug company stock.  Dumb people buy drug company products. > This is because there are always more dumb people than smart people. > — > ETF

Response:

I don’t know how that username got there, but I just fixed it.. My name is not "rocko" nor do I know a rocko.  I probably set the name as a handle during the most recent psychosis. Rob

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> You sound like myself from not so far back.  Fortunately, my opinion has > evolved after my 6th psychiatric hospitalization in the last 5 years. > I don’t know about you, but my problem every time is mania/psychosis rather > than depression (which is a problem unto itself).  What I do know is that > Zyprexa, an atypical antipsychotic, does in deed help restore my sanity and > keep me there.  That being the case, biological psychiatry does indeed seem > to have a basis in (my) reality. > During my most recent episode, I lost my job due to fear of going to a new > office location (I feared they were going to literally hang me).  At the > same time, I spent thousands of dollars on credit cards.  I was playing bad > music at maximum volume despite the cries of my parents to turn it down > (they went as far as breaking my door and I still continued).  I, being all > knowing, decided that I (even unemployed) was going to take over the cable > bill so I went and put the service in my name and added a service to the > bill (which, forunately, they were able to undo).  Later, when the ambulance > took me to the psych emergency room, I refused to sit in a chair (only on > the floor or on a desk).  While there, I asked for water to drink, and wound > up throwing the water onto a radio which was quietly playing music.  They > had to tie me down and inject me with a substance which I was told was a mix > of Benadryl with Haldol. > Now I wonder what the hell I was doing or thinking.  I know that is not me. > Or at least I hope that was not me.  It was, but it wasn’t. > It’s my sincere hope that mental illness does exist because it’s the only > explanation I now have for the way I was behaving.  It’s the only > explanation I have for why I’m so much in debt.  It’s the only explanation I > have for why I’m 27 years old and living in my parents house after twice > moving out since college.  It’s the only explanation I have…. period. > -Rob > The kind of "thinking" that goes on in these biopsychiatry posts is so > overloaded with ignorance of neurochemistry, fallacies about what > conclusions follow from what premises, groundless assertions, > breathtaking leaps of illogic, wishful thinking, appeals to authority, > and just flat-out horseshit that it’s hard to know where to even begin > dismantling them. > It’s just astounding that people believe this stuff.  Scratch that — > it’s astounding that people think this stuff even *means* anything. > Cortisol levels?  Oxidative stress?  Neurotransmitters?  Huh?  Do these > people just believe whatever they’re told? > Christ.  Basing your life around a cesspool of fantasy being passed off > as "science" is really not the best approach to living. > Here’s the truth: no one has any idea how the brain works.  No one has > any idea how psychotropic drugs work.  There are no "mental illnesses." > Talking about "serotonin levels" as if you could put a dipstick in your > brain and measure them is laughable.  Don’t be such a bunch of suckers. > The relationship between consciousness and neurochemistry probably won’t > be unraveled with another thousand years of research. > Just for starters (assuming anyone is willing to think):  When SSRIs were > new, we were supposed to believe that they corrected the specific > "chemical imbalance" that "caused" depression.  They were "selective." > Leaving aside the fact that (1) pharmacodynamic selectivity was > deliberately conflated with selectivity for mood states for marketing > purposes, (2) the causality between neurochemistry and consciousness > isn’t even *slightly* understood, and (3) the phrase "chemical imbalance" > doesn’t actually mean anything, we are now supposed to believe that these > drugs also "cure" "generalized anxiety disorder," "post-traumatic stress > disorder," "obsessive-compulsive disorder," "social anxiety disorder," an > d even fucking PMS for god’s sake.  Wow.  That sounds *really* > "selective."  What are the odds that the same "chemical imbalance" is > responsible for virtually every feeling that someone doesn’t like? > How does "zero" sound? > Stop being such a bunch of idiots being led around by the nose.  Smart > people buy drug company stock.  Dumb people buy drug company products. > This is because there are always more dumb people than smart people. > — > ETF

Response:

You sound like myself from not so far back.  Fortunately, my opinion has evolved after my 6th psychiatric hospitalization in the last 5 years. I don’t know about you, but my problem every time is mania/psychosis rather than depression (which is a problem unto itself).  What I do know is that Zyprexa, an atypical antipsychotic, does in deed help restore my sanity and keep me there.  That being the case, biological psychiatry does indeed seem to have a basis in (my) reality. During my most recent episode, I lost my job due to fear of going to a new office location (I feared they were going to literally hang me).  At the same time, I spent thousands of dollars on credit cards.  I was playing bad music at maximum volume despite the cries of my parents to turn it down (they went as far as breaking my door and I still continued).  I, being all knowing, decided that I (even unemployed) was going to take over the cable bill so I went and put the service in my name and added a service to the bill (which, forunately, they were able to undo).  Later, when the ambulance took me to the psych emergency room, I refused to sit in a chair (only on the floor or on a desk).  While there, I asked for water to drink, and wound up throwing the water onto a radio which was quietly playing music.  They had to tie me down and inject me with a substance which I was told was a mix of Benadryl with Haldol. Now I wonder what the hell I was doing or thinking.  I know that is not me. Or at least I hope that was not me.  It was, but it wasn’t. It’s my sincere hope that mental illness does exist because it’s the only explanation I now have for the way I was behaving.  It’s the only explanation I have for why I’m so much in debt.  It’s the only explanation I have for why I’m 27 years old and living in my parents house after twice moving out since college.  It’s the only explanation I have…. period. -Rob

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> The kind of "thinking" that goes on in these biopsychiatry posts is so > overloaded with ignorance of neurochemistry, fallacies about what > conclusions follow from what premises, groundless assertions, > breathtaking leaps of illogic, wishful thinking, appeals to authority, > and just flat-out horseshit that it’s hard to know where to even begin > dismantling them. > It’s just astounding that people believe this stuff.  Scratch that — > it’s astounding that people think this stuff even *means* anything. > Cortisol levels?  Oxidative stress?  Neurotransmitters?  Huh?  Do these > people just believe whatever they’re told? > Christ.  Basing your life around a cesspool of fantasy being passed off > as "science" is really not the best approach to living. > Here’s the truth: no one has any idea how the brain works.  No one has > any idea how psychotropic drugs work.  There are no "mental illnesses." > Talking about "serotonin levels" as if you could put a dipstick in your > brain and measure them is laughable.  Don’t be such a bunch of suckers. > The relationship between consciousness and neurochemistry probably won’t > be unraveled with another thousand years of research. > Just for starters (assuming anyone is willing to think):  When SSRIs were > new, we were supposed to believe that they corrected the specific > "chemical imbalance" that "caused" depression.  They were "selective." > Leaving aside the fact that (1) pharmacodynamic selectivity was > deliberately conflated with selectivity for mood states for marketing > purposes, (2) the causality between neurochemistry and consciousness > isn’t even *slightly* understood, and (3) the phrase "chemical imbalance" > doesn’t actually mean anything, we are now supposed to believe that these > drugs also "cure" "generalized anxiety disorder," "post-traumatic stress > disorder," "obsessive-compulsive disorder," "social anxiety disorder," an > d even fucking PMS for god’s sake.  Wow.  That sounds *really* > "selective."  What are the odds that the same "chemical imbalance" is > responsible for virtually every feeling that someone doesn’t like? > How does "zero" sound? > Stop being such a bunch of idiots being led around by the nose.  Smart > people buy drug company stock.  Dumb people buy drug company products. > This is because there are always more dumb people than smart people. > — > ETF

Response:

Question:

Can anyone tell me about lithium augmentation with SSRIs or SNRIs or whatever?  I’m taking 225mg Effexor XR and my doctor has suggested using lithium augmentation to help with some of the more resistant symptoms.  I’ve tried a whole bunch of other stuff (mostly SSRIs), but I’m a little worried about trying lithium because of it’s reputation as a "hard" drug. Please let me know about any of the positive/negative aspects of lithium, as well as side effects, etc. Anything at all would be appreciated. Elsa

Response:

> Can anyone tell me about lithium augmentation with SSRIs or SNRIs or > whatever?  I’m taking 225mg Effexor XR and my doctor has suggested > using lithium augmentation to help with some of the more resistant > symptoms.  I’ve tried a whole bunch of other stuff (mostly SSRIs), but > I’m a little worried about trying lithium because of it’s reputation > as a "hard" drug. Please let me know about any of the > positive/negative aspects of lithium, as well as side effects, etc. > Anything at all would be appreciated. > Elsa

Hi Elsa, I know that lithium is used as an adjunct drug with other meds, though off hand, I cannot tell you which; and it’s important to know that there is not bad interaction and to know the dose, etc.  Please excuse me for this rough reply; I am presently going through a drug experience myself, but I am attaching a site you may find useful with many links on lithium info. As for lithium being a "hard drug" – I am not sure what you mean by this.  It is the gold standard for bipolar depression. take care Squiggles http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Lithium/

Response:

Welcome to the ng, Here is some info: > Can anyone tell me about lithium augmentation with SSRIs or SNRIs or > whatever?  I’m taking 225mg Effexor XR and my doctor has suggested > using lithium augmentation to help with some of the more resistant > symptoms.  I’ve tried a whole bunch of other stuff (mostly SSRIs), but > I’m a little worried about trying lithium because of it’s reputation > as a "hard" drug. Please let me know about any of the > positive/negative aspects of lithium, as well as side effects, etc. > Anything at all would be appreciated.

http://www.biopsychiatry.com/lithaug.htm Lithium augmentation in treatment-resistant depression: meta-analysis of placebo-controlled studies by Bauer M, Dopfmer S Department of Psychiatry, Klinikum Benjamin Franklin, Freie Unversitat Berlin, Germany. J Clin Psychopharmacol 1999 Oct; 19(5):427-34 ABSTRACT The addition of lithium to the treatment regimens of previously nonresponding depressed patients has been repeatedly investigated in controlled studies. The authors undertook this meta-analysis to investigate the efficacy of lithium augmentation of conventional antidepressants. An attempt was made to identify all placebo-controlled trials of lithium augmentation in refractory depression. Only double-blind studies that involved participants who had been treated with lithium or placebo addition after not responding to conventional antidepressants were to be included in the meta-analysis. Further inclusion criteria were the use of accepted diagnostic criteria for depression and the use of response criteria based on the acceptable measurement of depression as an outcome variable. Studies were located by a search of the MEDLINE database, a search in the Cochrane Library, and an intensive search by hand of reviews on lithium augmentation. Nine of 11 placebo-controlled, double-blind studies were included in this meta-analysis. Aggregating three studies with a total of 110 patients that used a minimum lithium dose of 800 mg/day, or a dose sufficient to reach lithium serum levels of > or = 0.5 mEq/L, and a minimum treatment duration of 2 weeks, the authors found that the pooled odds ratio of response during lithium augmentation compared with the response during placebo treatment was 3.31 (95% confidence interval, 1.46-7.53). The corresponding relative response rate was 2.14 (95% confidence interval, 1.23-3.70), the absolute improvement in response rate was 27% (95% confidence interval, 9.8%-44.2%), and the number of patients needed to be treated to obtain one more responder was 3.7. Inclusion of six more studies that fulfilled inclusion criteria but which treated subjects with additional lithium for less than 2 weeks or with a lower lithium dose (total, 234 patients) resulted in even higher estimates. Lithium augmentation seems to be the treatment strategy in refractory depression that has been investigated most frequently in placebo-controlled, double-blind studies. The authors conclude from this meta-analysis that with respect to efficacy, lithium augmentation is the first-choice treatment procedure for depressed patients who fail to respond to http://bipolar.about.com/library/weekly/mpreviss.htm Go to site and select from the following: 04/02/01 – Lithium: The First Mood Stabilizer Part 4: Whoa, Fat! We conclude our look at Lithium be examining the possible reasons why so many people gain weight – sometimes a LOT of weight – while taking it. 03/26/01 – Lithium: The First Mood Stabilizer Part 3: Major Precautions and Warnings Important facts about this medication, including salt intake, pre-existing conditions, interactions with other medications and other issues.. 03/19/01 – Lithium: The First Mood Stabilizer Part 2: Tests and Toxicity Tests have to be run before starting lithium therapy to make sure it is safe and appropriate for the patient. More tests have to be done throughout the course of therapy to make sure blood levels are within the safe and effective range, because lithium overdose can be very dangerous. 03/12/01 – Lithium: The First Mood Stabilizer Part 1: History, and a Mystery Solved It took nearly 50 years for scientists to start figuring out how lithium works. In Part 1 of a four-part series, we look at the history of lithium and the ground-breaking research that unlocked its mysteries. antidepressant monotherapy.

Response:

<snip> I’ve used lithium as an augmenting agent, and I must say that I really liked it. It did help my anti-depressant, and it very nicely leveled out the worst of my rapid mood swings from depressed but coping to desperately self-destructive. Did have a couple drawbacks though. I had a persistent hand tremor, usually annoying but tolerable though sometimes bad enough to make handwriting difficult and handling coins a disaster. Ultimately, I had to go off lithium because it was reducing my thyroid function too much. A couple months of thyroid supplements took care of that problem. Bright blessings. Fiona — If we had no winter, the spring would not be so pleasant: if we did not sometimes taste the adversity, prosperity would not be so welcome.      – Anne Bradstreet, Meditations Divine and Moral, 1664

Response:

Question:

> do any of you (women) find that your menstrual cycle changes according to > meds? > i get pms more and more and ms less and less > hmmmm > (my hair has gotten straighter too)

Yes. I started missing periods on Tegretol. Missed periods while taking Ativan or Xanax with Zoloft. Now I’m just taking 200 mg Zoloft and seem to be back on schedule. Or is it menopause?  I dunno. — Wordy "Be who you are and say what you feel,  because those who mind don’t matter,…  and those who matter don’t mind." –Dr. Seuss

Response:

lol – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – > Organization: TelstraSaturn > Newsgroups: alt.support.depression.manic > Underneath all the issues, I like to think I’m pretty smart. > Having said that, there are some things I just can’t answer. > Thanks for reminding me of that fact ;-D > Hugs > Bruce > do any of you (women) find that your menstrual cycle changes according to > meds? > i get pms more and more and ms less and less > hmmmm > (my hair has gotten straighter too)

Response:

> do any of you (women) find that your menstrual cycle changes according to > meds? > i get pms more and more and ms less and less > hmmmm > (my hair has gotten straighter too)

hmm, no, but i can say that the pill tends to make my moods a bit more stable. or that could’ve just been coincidence. who knows at this point. maybe the bipolar makes my hormones go rampant, not the other way around. who knows. who knows.

Response:

> do any of you (women) find that your menstrual cycle changes according to > meds? > i get pms more and more and ms less and less > hmmmm > (my hair has gotten straighter too)

i think its a known side effect of a lot of meds… which ones are you taking? ssris tend to do that… hugs m — ~~~~~>><:>~~~~~ iriXx "you can try the best you can…   you can try the best you can… …the best you can is good enough" radiohead: optomistic

Response:

hai Alexia, -I’m loosing hair because of Depakote (I can’t see it when I look in the mirror, but I definetly see it on my bathroom floor.. – Risperdal made me producing milk, like being pregnant – Depakote is changing my size of bra I guess, two weeks a months, before Depakote, that happened two days a month, but I might be wrong.. Marie-Elise – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> do any of you (women) find that your menstrual cycle changes according to > meds? > i get pms more and more and ms less and less > hmmmm > (my hair has gotten straighter too)

Response:

do any of you (women) find that your menstrual cycle changes according to meds? i get pms more and more and ms less and less hmmmm (my hair has gotten straighter too)

Response:

Underneath all the issues, I like to think I’m pretty smart. Having said that, there are some things I just can’t answer. Thanks for reminding me of that fact ;-D Hugs Bruce – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – >do any of you (women) find that your menstrual cycle changes according to >meds? >i get pms more and more and ms less and less >hmmmm >(my hair has gotten straighter too)

Response:

Question:

Taking down the tree….putting away the decorations….looking forward to Spring. — LyndaNP Reality isn’t the way you wish things to be, nor the way they appear to be, but the way they actually are. – Robert J. Ringer

Response:

> Taking down the tree….putting away the decorations….looking forward > to Spring.

Yes. Great isn’t it! I hate all the enforced jollity of Xmas… I’m new here btw.. I’m almost certainly bipolar (maybe *only* cyclothymic)… the docs seem a bit unsure… atm I’m seeing a clinical psychologist for ‘assessment’… This seems like a nice place… — Steven http://www.davecovcomedy.com/

Response:

Time to start your Tomato seedlings!  I have to start telling myself that now, so I can procrastinate a month and still plant them in time. Ralph Vi,  world’s only Linux and Aol user. To email, remove those sicklids.  They keep eating my Mollies

Response:

> — > Steven > http://www.davecovcomedy.com/

Hi Steven, I love your link – I am a Python fanatic – and I go into convulsions over the Mouse Episode of "Fawlty Towers".  "You put Basil in the Ratattouille?" Squiggles

Response:

> I’m new here btw.. I’m almost certainly bipolar (maybe *only* > cyclothymic)… the docs seem a bit unsure… atm I’m seeing a > clinical psychologist for ‘assessment’…

Can y’all tell me the differences between bipolar and cyclothymic? — Wordy, Radiant Sun to the Galaxy of Controversy

Response:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> I’m new here btw.. I’m almost certainly bipolar (maybe *only* > cyclothymic)… the docs seem a bit unsure… atm I’m seeing a > clinical psychologist for ‘assessment’… > Can y’all tell me the differences between bipolar and cyclothymic? > — > Wordy, > Radiant Sun to the > Galaxy of Controversy

Here is a site with definitions; just click on the left; cyclothymic literally means change or cycle in mood – how it’s used may be a matter of stressing degree of manic-depression swings: http://www.mentalhealth.com/fr20.html Squiggles

Response:

> Taking down the tree….putting away the decorations….looking forward > to Spring.

im  going to choose to bum you all out by feeling sorry for myself. no tree, no decorations, no family, no party, no love. none for me this year. big flat NUTHIN. not even allowed to feel the feelings i felt. just cold. ice, freezing, coldness. i hate my family and i hope they die violent painful lonely deaths somewhere far away from me, and that i get my daughter home where she belongs asap. i mean that. in case you thought i was kidding, let me say it again. i hope that my stepmother and my father die vicious violent lonely painful deaths far away from everyone they care about (although they dont care about anyone so that is kind of meaningless) and that my daughter and i live the rest of our lives as far away from them and their insanity as we can possibly get ourselves. so there. i need a miracle this holiday. thats what its gonna take. gonna go have coffee now. you can return to your regularly scheduled humanity. > — > LyndaNP > Reality isn’t the way you wish things to be, nor the way > they appear to be, but the way they actually are. > – Robert J. Ringer

– its a buck:  dancer’s choice, my friend better take my advice – you know all the rules by now and the fire from the ice. think this through with me; let me know your mind oh, what i want to know is – are you kind ? ~~ blessed are we to dwell in these beautiful temples ~~

Response:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> Taking down the tree….putting away the decorations….looking forward > to Spring. > im  going to choose to bum you all out by feeling sorry for myself. no > tree, no decorations, no family, no party, no love. > none for me this year. big flat NUTHIN. > not even allowed to feel the feelings i felt. just cold. ice, freezing, > coldness. > i hate my family and i hope they die violent painful lonely deaths > somewhere far away from me, and that i get my daughter home where she > belongs asap. > i mean that. in case you thought i was kidding, let me say it again. i > hope that my stepmother and my father die vicious violent lonely painful > deaths far away from everyone they care about (although they dont care > about anyone so that is kind of meaningless) and that my daughter and i > live the rest of our lives as far away from them and their insanity as > we can possibly get ourselves. > so there. > i need a miracle this holiday. thats what its gonna take. gonna go have > coffee now. you can return to your regularly scheduled humanity. > — > LyndaNP > Reality isn’t the way you wish things to be, nor the way > they appear to be, but the way they actually are. > – Robert J. Ringer > —

Anna, I am sorry – i forget how bad your situation is; please feel free to rant as much as you like. I don’t know what kind of advice to give, i’m rather misanthropic myself.  Actually, I do just well among people who are gentle, but most groups I know and relatives and so forth are just so aggressive, that I want to hide.  This is what I miss about my world – academia the most.  I should have been a monk or a monkette, lol. Squiggles

Response:

>>– >Steven >http://www.davecovcomedy.com/ > Hi Steven, > I love your link – I am a Python fanatic – and > I go into convulsions over the Mouse Episode of > "Fawlty Towers".  "You put Basil in the Ratattouille?"

Hi Squiggles… Just before Xmas my girlfriend and I sat down and enjoyed the Boxed Set of Fawlty Towers… two episodes a night… great stuff. I love loads of different kinds of comedy… the link I used points to the more mainstream sort… my favourite kind is the Chris Morris type of savage satire. VERY cathartic. ) — Steven http://www.davecovcomedy.com/

Response:

>> Taking down the tree….putting away the decorations….looking forward > to Spring. > Yes. Great isn’t it! I hate all the enforced jollity of Xmas…

I’m with you on that one, Steve! – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> I’m new here btw.. I’m almost certainly bipolar (maybe *only* > cyclothymic)… the docs seem a bit unsure… atm I’m seeing a clinical > psychologist for ‘assessment’… > This seems like a nice place…

Response:

> Here is a site with definitions; just click on the left; > cyclothymic literally means change or cycle in mood – how > it’s used may be a matter of stressing degree of manic-depression > swings:

Yes, I’ve done some searches on the subjet, but I wanted to hear it in layman’s terms. — Wordy, Radiant Sun to the Galaxy of Controversy

Response:

Hi Steven, yes this is a nice place.  I’ve only been here a couple of months myself.  Good to see you join us. Bonnie

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> Taking down the tree….putting away the decorations….looking forward > to Spring. > Yes. Great isn’t it! I hate all the enforced jollity of Xmas… > I’m new here btw.. I’m almost certainly bipolar (maybe *only* > cyclothymic)… the docs seem a bit unsure… atm I’m seeing a > clinical psychologist for ‘assessment’… > This seems like a nice place… > — > Steven > http://www.davecovcomedy.com/

Response:

> im  going to choose to bum you all out by feeling sorry for myself. no > tree, no decorations, no family, no party, no love.

I don’t know what to say, except that I feel for you. {{{{{Anna}}}}} Fiona — If we had no winter, the spring would not be so pleasant: if we did not sometimes taste the adversity, prosperity would not be so welcome.      – Anne Bradstreet, Meditations Divine and Moral, 1664

Response:

> Taking down the tree….putting away the decorations….looking forward > to Spring.

Well, I never put up a tree, so I don’t have to worry about that part. But I do have to get the decorations put away; soon, since my family’s tradition is that it’s bad luck to have decorations up past Jan. 6 (Twelfth Night). Definately looking forward to Spring. This year I’m trying to pay attention to noticing that every day though January and February sunset is really a few minutes later. I’m hoping this will help derail some of my usual February funk. Fiona — If we had no winter, the spring would not be so pleasant: if we did not sometimes taste the adversity, prosperity would not be so welcome.      – Anne Bradstreet, Meditations Divine and Moral, 1664

Response:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text ->Taking down the tree….putting away the decorations….looking forward >to Spring. > Well, I never put up a tree, so I don’t have to worry about that part. > But I do have to get the decorations put away; soon, since my family’s > tradition is that it’s bad luck to have decorations up past Jan. 6 > (Twelfth Night). > Definately looking forward to Spring. This year I’m trying to pay > attention to noticing that every day though January and February sunset > is really a few minutes later. I’m hoping this will help derail some of > my usual February funk.

February Funk, huh?  Sounds like the genisis of a 1970’s right guard Ad! Feb is a toughie month, has to get it’s licks in good, only 28 lousy short grey days!

Response:

> Hi Steven, yes this is a nice place.  I’ve only been here a couple of months > myself.  Good to see you join us. > Bonnie

Hi Bonnie. These groups (ASDM, SSDM and ASDMed) are great aren’t they. I used to post to a UK depression group… but I ended up getting more depressed and more bitter! Not good news… But I’m pretty sure that I’m at least cyclothymic… Slightly ‘OT’: I don’t seem to need ANY sleep these days… a couple of hours a night and I’m more or less ok… weird… is this… er… ‘normal’ for our conditions? — Steven http://www.davecovcomedy.com/

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>>> Taking down the tree….putting away the decorations….looking forward >> to Spring. > Yes. Great isn’t it! I hate all the enforced jollity of Xmas… > I’m with you on that one, Steve!

Nothing worse than ‘having’ to have fun… I prefer fun to happen naturally… and it usually does… ;o) — Steven http://www.davecovcomedy.com/

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Hi Setven Welcome to the ng. > These groups (ASDM, SSDM and ASDMed) are great aren’t they. I used > to post to a UK depression group… but I ended up getting more > depressed and more bitter! Not good news… > But I’m pretty sure that I’m at least cyclothymic… > Slightly ‘OT’: I don’t seem to need ANY sleep these days… a couple > of hours a night and I’m more or less ok… weird… is this… > er… ‘normal’ for our conditions?

Yes….hypomania….please inform your doctor. Peace, Lynda

Response:

> Yes….hypomania….please inform your doctor. > Peace, > Lynda

Me too. But I like it. I know…. jodelli

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>>Yes….hypomania….please inform your doctor. >Peace, >Lynda > Me too. But I like it. I know….

It is a pain in the neck, yes… but I get a hell of a lot done with all the extra hours!!! / So it does have its advantages… — Steven http://www.davecovcomedy.com/

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- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text ->>Yes….hypomania….please inform your doctor. >>Peace, >>Lynda > Me too. But I like it. I know…. > It is a pain in the neck, yes… but I get a hell of a lot done with > all the extra hours!!! / So it does have its advantages…

My problem is when the mania is gone and my ass has to keep the committments my manic mouth made. — Wordy, Radiant Sun to the Galaxy of Controversy

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- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text ->>>Yes….hypomania….please inform your doctor. >>Me too. But I like it. I know…. >It is a pain in the neck, yes… but I get a hell of a lot done with >all the extra hours!!! / So it does have its advantages… > My problem is when the mania is gone and my ass has to keep the > committments my manic mouth made.

I tend to just dance about (in a deliberately silly way) and sing silly songs when I’m really manic… (my children love it!) ) I don’t really make any commitments as such (when I’m ‘up’… or ‘down’ come to think of it!) … not ones I can’t honour anyway… — Steven http://www.davecovcomedy.com/

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> >My problem is when the mania is gone and my ass has to keep the >committments my manic mouth made. > I’m living down that reality right now. Hugs, Ralph

LOL!  Then you know what I mean.   — Wordy, Radiant Sun to the Galaxy of Controversy

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> I tend to just dance about (in a deliberately silly way) and sing > silly songs when I’m really manic… (my children love it!) ) > I don’t really make any commitments as such (when I’m ‘up’… or > ‘down’ come to think of it!) … not ones I can’t honour anyway… > — > Steven

i guess thats one small blessing that we can count as cyclothymics… i dont seem to make commitments that i cant honour and stuff when i’m ‘up’… nor do i seem to get much of the euphoria unfortunately, it might be more fun like that ;o)… i just tend to rush around and gabble ten to the dozen, i lose concentration and cant keep focus on one thing, everythings too loud… its almost like a big stress attack except my mind and body is racing as well…. apparently its called dysphoric hypomania. hehe i just wish i could have some fun now and then…. ‘care m — ~~~~~>><:>~~~~~ iriXx "… faith is being sure of what we hope for, and certain of what we cannot see"

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 >> I tend to just dance about (in a deliberately silly way) and  >> sing  silly songs when I’m really manic… (my children love  >> it!) )  >>  >> I don’t really make any commitments as such (when I’m ‘up’…  >> or  ’down’ come to think of it!) … not ones I can’t honour  >> anyway…  > i guess thats one small blessing that we can count as  > cyclothymics… i dont seem to make commitments that i cant  > honour and stuff when i’m ‘up’… nor do i seem to get much of  > the euphoria unfortunately, it might be more fun like that  > ;o)…  i just tend to rush around and gabble ten to the dozen,  >  i lose concentration and cant keep focus on one thing,  > everythings too loud… its almost like a big stress attack  > except my mind and body is racing as well…. apparently its  > called dysphoric hypomania. hehe i just wish i could have some  > fun now and then…. I know what you mean about losing concentration… lots of the time I can’t seem to concentrate long enough to read things properly… which is a bit of a hindrance when reading newsgroup postings! I have to force myself to slow down and read things… carefully. I don’t have euphoria as such, though I am definitely ‘up’ as in happy and smiling and being ‘wacky’ (aka ‘tiresome’!) / Thankfully I have a very sympathetic girlfriend… — Steven http://www.davecovcomedy.com/

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>>> Taking down the tree….putting away the decorations….looking forward >> to Spring. > Yes. Great isn’t it! I hate all the enforced jollity of Xmas… > me too…. i kept very quiet this xmas cept for hanging out here… > needed to know other people felt the same about all that fake happy that > goes on…. > hehe, well, we can at least now say the shortest day of the year has > passed and things literally will be getting brighter… thats something > )))

I don’t really mind the dark nights… ) It’s the cold I can’t stand… (I’m in Britain, btw… very cold here right now!) > I’m new here btw.. I’m almost certainly bipolar (maybe *only* > cyclothymic)… the docs seem a bit unsure… atm I’m seeing a > clinical psychologist for ‘assessment’… > This seems like a nice place… > hiya, welcome )))) > i’m a fellow cyclothymic. i was diagnosed just under a year ago… been > coming to terms with the idea of being BP since. this is a cool place > ))) i hope you’ll find a lot of support here, as i have. keep an eye > out on lynda’s posts of medical information, i’ve found them invaluable > just in learning about BP, and occasionally things crop up about > cyclothymia too.

As I’ve said I haven’t had a firm diagnosis… just ‘maybes’… one therapist I saw said I may have a personality disorder… my doctor thinks I could be cyclothymic… and the psychologist I’m seeing right now seems to think it could be bipolar… the opinion I trust the most though, is that of my girlfriend… she has had some medical training in the past and is pretty sure I’m ‘manic’… > yeah, i understand what you mean about "only" cyclothymic… it might be > milder… but in some ways the rapid cycles are more confusing, and > emotionally exhausting i find too… i seem to be either racing around > and gabbling ten to the dozen at the moment, or really depressed…. > are you on any meds?… i’d be interested to know how you find them, if > you’re okay about chatting about them… i’m still trying to work all of > the med stuff out myself.

I take Seroxat for ‘depression’ – which *does* help, I have to say. I also take pretty strong drugs for my Crohn’s Disease – I’ve had it since I was 22 (I’m now 39). Take care. ) — Steven http://www.davecovcomedy.com/

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> My psych thinks I’m bipolar2, but I’m confused at the subtle differences > between the numbers.

Me too.  I was told I was bipolar 2 but there are days that I have quite a bit of the rapid cycling and that makes me wonder.  I’m only now learning more about being bipolar 2 –  cyclothymia is still really confusing to me. Heck, I don’t know what I am and I doubt if anyone else does either…. Bonnie

Response:

> i’m cyclothymic, thats my official diagnosis… i’ve been looking out > for info on it since i was diagnosed… i guess cos its taken me a while > to come to terms with it…. > hugs > m

Hi m. you know this coming to terms business is difficult isn’t it? I hope you are doing OK, Bonnie

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Hi Brenda, I was only diagnosed a couple of months ago and I still have so much to learn about all this.  I can tell you this is the place to be to get information on the various forms of bipolar.  I have found more helpful info here than anywhere. I have taken welbutrin in the past and found if I had any caffeine while on it I would be climbing the walls.  I now take prozac for my AD and neurontin as a mood stabilizer.   I’m still trying to adjust the neurontin and the holidays sure don’t help any.  This is the first mood stabilizer I’ve taken and I do think it helps although it takes me a long time to get the dosage adjusted on any meds I take.  As far as side effects I really have not had very many once I got past the first few weeks. Take care Brenda, Bonnie

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> Hi there, new here and having a particularly hard day with ups and > downs. I’m talking so fast my mouth can’t keep up.  It would be funny > if I didn’t crash an hour later, replay the gaffe in my head and start > beating myself up for being such a big moron. > I’ve never been diagnosed as having anything more specific than > bipolar disorder, but cyclothymia sounds right on the money. > I take wellbutrin, which kind of keeps things level most of the time, > but some heavy life stress has turned me into a tilt-a-whirl.  Is > anyone talking mood stabilizers?  Do they work?  What are the side > effects? > Thanks, just feeling the need for some ‘real world’ information at the > moment.

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> Taking down the tree….putting away the decorations….looking forward > to Spring.

Well, I never put up a tree, so I don’t have to worry about that part. But I do have to get the decorations put away; soon, since my family’s tradition is that it’s bad luck to have decorations up past Jan. 6 (Twelfth Night). Definately looking forward to Spring. This year I’m trying to pay attention to noticing that every day though January and February sunset is really a few minutes later. I’m hoping this will help derail some of my usual February funk. Fiona — If we had no winter, the spring would not be so pleasant: if we did not sometimes taste the adversity, prosperity would not be so welcome.      – Anne Bradstreet, Meditations Divine and Moral, 1664

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Hi Steven, yes this is a nice place.  I’ve only been here a couple of months myself.  Good to see you join us. Bonnie

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> Taking down the tree….putting away the decorations….looking forward > to Spring. > Yes. Great isn’t it! I hate all the enforced jollity of Xmas… > I’m new here btw.. I’m almost certainly bipolar (maybe *only* > cyclothymic)… the docs seem a bit unsure… atm I’m seeing a > clinical psychologist for ‘assessment’… > This seems like a nice place… > — > Steven > http://www.davecovcomedy.com/

Response:

> im  going to choose to bum you all out by feeling sorry for myself. no > tree, no decorations, no family, no party, no love.

I don’t know what to say, except that I feel for you. {{{{{Anna}}}}} Fiona — If we had no winter, the spring would not be so pleasant: if we did not sometimes taste the adversity, prosperity would not be so welcome.      – Anne Bradstreet, Meditations Divine and Moral, 1664

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Hi there, new here and having a particularly hard day with ups and downs. I’m talking so fast my mouth can’t keep up.  It would be funny if I didn’t crash an hour later, replay the gaffe in my head and start beating myself up for being such a big moron. I’ve never been diagnosed as having anything more specific than bipolar disorder, but cyclothymia sounds right on the money. I take wellbutrin, which kind of keeps things level most of the time, but some heavy life stress has turned me into a tilt-a-whirl.  Is anyone talking mood stabilizers?  Do they work?  What are the side effects? Thanks, just feeling the need for some ‘real world’ information at the moment.

Response:

Yeah, it can get incredibly confusing. I’m BP2, but I am a rapid cycler, as is my son who is BP1 w/psychosis. I just call myself a beeper, take my meds, and deal with it one day at a time (sometimes one minute at a time). CJ

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text ->>I’m new here btw.. I’m almost certainly bipolar (maybe *only* >>cyclothymic)… the docs seem a bit unsure… atm I’m seeing a >>clinical psychologist for ‘assessment’… > Can y’all tell me the differences between bipolar and cyclothymic? > cyclothymia is what i have. its one of the many spectrum variants of > bipolar… usually classified as mild hypomania and depression, but with > cycles that can last anything from a few hours to days or weeks. > sometimes its known as bipolar III (although sometimes that > classification is given to antidepressant-induced bipolar, it depends > whose manual you’re reading.). i like the term bipolar III because it > keeps the trend of the scale from bp I being longer term and more > intense mania and depression, to bp II being hypomania, often dysphoric > mania, and depression, and bp III or cyclothymia, being rather similiar > to bp II but with shorter cycles. its sometimes called rapid cycling > too, although all types of bp can have times of rapid cycling. > hope that helps > ‘care > m > — > ~~~~~>><:>~~~~~ > iriXx > "… faith is being sure of what we hope for, > and certain of what we cannot see"

Response:

> Yeah, it can get incredibly confusing. > I’m BP2, but I am a rapid cycler, as is my son who is BP1 w/psychosis. > I just call myself a beeper, take my meds, and deal with it one day at a > time (sometimes one minute at a time). > CJ

yeahh… me too… i just try and follow the advice of my therapist which is to look at me and what i want to work on and change, rather than the label ))) (((((((hugs to you and your son)))))))))) m — ~~~~~>><:>~~~~~ iriXx "… faith is being sure of what we hope for, and certain of what we cannot see"

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- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – > Hi there, new here and having a particularly hard day with ups and > downs. I’m talking so fast my mouth can’t keep up.  It would be funny > if I didn’t crash an hour later, replay the gaffe in my head and start > beating myself up for being such a big moron. > I’ve never been diagnosed as having anything more specific than > bipolar disorder, but cyclothymia sounds right on the money. > I take wellbutrin, which kind of keeps things level most of the time, > but some heavy life stress has turned me into a tilt-a-whirl.  Is > anyone talking mood stabilizers?  Do they work?  What are the side > effects? > Thanks, just feeling the need for some ‘real world’ information at the > moment.

hiya, yeah that sounds a bit like me, i talk fast when i’m hypomanic, or work really fast… and then crash about 3 hours or so later…. sometimes this cycle goes on for days…. today i was a little hypomanic but mostly balanced which was a breath of fresh air ))) i’ve had one hell of a xmas… i take zoloft (sertraline)… i havent got mood stabilisers yet, thats my other option, but last time i spoke to my p-doc she just wanted me to stay stable on what i’m on., cos i had a nasty reaction to some stuff a consultant tried to put me on (and then i sacked him!)… from what i gather the mood stabilisers are excellent though ))) almost everyone else here is on them i think ))) take care m — ~~~~~>><:>~~~~~ iriXx "… faith is being sure of what we hope for, and certain of what we cannot see"

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> Here is a site with definitions; just click on the left; > cyclothymic literally means change or cycle in mood – how > it’s used may be a matter of stressing degree of manic-depression > swings:

Yes, I’ve done some searches on the subjet, but I wanted to hear it in layman’s terms. — Wordy, Radiant Sun to the Galaxy of Controversy

Response:

> Yeah, it can get incredibly confusing. > I’m BP2, but I am a rapid cycler, as is my son who is BP1 w/psychosis. > I just call myself a beeper, take my meds, and deal with it one day at a > time (sometimes one minute at a time).

My psych thinks I’m bipolar2, but I’m confused at the subtle differences between the numbers. — Wordy, Radiant Sun to the Galaxy of Controversy

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I think it is more like aftershock with all the extreme changes up and down and too much to do and too many problems to deal with and all that squeezed into one month.  It is supposed to be a happy time but ends up being all stress and problems. Take down the tree?  You mean I have to do that too?  I was hoping if I didn’t say anything I could just leave it alone with the other Christmas decorations.  Besides, the cats love the tree – they would hate to see it go.  It was several weeks of stressing getting the tree up.  I’m just not ready to start stressing about taking it down yet. I go back to "normal life" (whatever that is) tomorrow.  Today started out with a one hour+ drive to the airport in the snow to see my son back off to school.  It was so hard – we both cried.  He is in total denial of his bipolar condition even though a few years ago he accepted it and took meds for it.  It was great having him home after not seeing him for a year but it has been difficult seeing how he suffers from his condition.  I’m learning so much more about this since I was recently diagnosed and I want to help him but can’t – he has to do things his own way.  I have to say my husband was much more patient than usual about putting up with two beepers and all those "extra" holiday mood swings.  Maybe he is actually learning to accept this a bit. I’ve been on vacation for the past week but tomorrow it is back to work. I’d rather not but I have no choice so I’ll try to ignore the tree and decorations a little longer and see what happens. I hope everyone is healing from the holidays, Bonnie

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> Taking down the tree….putting away the decorations….looking forward > to Spring. > — > LyndaNP > Reality isn’t the way you wish things to be, nor the way > they appear to be, but the way they actually are. > – Robert J. Ringer

Response:

> I’m new here btw.. I’m almost certainly bipolar (maybe *only* > cyclothymic)… the docs seem a bit unsure… atm I’m seeing a > clinical psychologist for ‘assessment’…

Can y’all tell me the differences between bipolar and cyclothymic? — Wordy, Radiant Sun to the Galaxy of Controversy

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- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> I’m new here btw.. I’m almost certainly bipolar (maybe *only* > cyclothymic)… the docs seem a bit unsure… atm I’m seeing a > clinical psychologist for ‘assessment’… > Can y’all tell me the differences between bipolar and cyclothymic? > — > Wordy, > Radiant Sun to the > Galaxy of Controversy

Here is a site with definitions; just click on the left; cyclothymic literally means change or cycle in mood – how it’s used may be a matter of stressing degree of manic-depression swings: http://www.mentalhealth.com/fr20.html Squiggles

Response:

>>Can y’all tell me the differences between bipolar and cyclothymic? > Here is a site with definitions; just click on the left; > cyclothymic literally means change or cycle in mood – how > it’s used may be a matter of stressing degree of manic-depression > swings: > http://www.mentalhealth.com/fr20.html > Squiggles

  cool thanx heaps. i’m cyclothymic, thats my official diagnosis… i’ve been looking out for info on it since i was diagnosed… i guess cos its taken me a while to come to terms with it…. hugs m — ~~~~~>><:>~~~~~ iriXx "… faith is being sure of what we hope for, and certain of what we cannot see"

Response:

>>I’m new here btw.. I’m almost certainly bipolar (maybe *only* >cyclothymic)… the docs seem a bit unsure… atm I’m seeing a >clinical psychologist for ‘assessment’… > Can y’all tell me the differences between bipolar and cyclothymic?

cyclothymia is what i have. its one of the many spectrum variants of bipolar… usually classified as mild hypomania and depression, but with cycles that can last anything from a few hours to days or weeks. sometimes its known as bipolar III (although sometimes that classification is given to antidepressant-induced bipolar, it depends whose manual you’re reading.). i like the term bipolar III because it keeps the trend of the scale from bp I being longer term and more intense mania and depression, to bp II being hypomania, often dysphoric mania, and depression, and bp III or cyclothymia, being rather similiar to bp II but with shorter cycles. its sometimes called rapid cycling too, although all types of bp can have times of rapid cycling. hope that helps ‘care m — ~~~~~>><:>~~~~~ iriXx "… faith is being sure of what we hope for, and certain of what we cannot see"

Response:

>> Taking down the tree….putting away the decorations….looking forward > to Spring. > Yes. Great isn’t it! I hate all the enforced jollity of Xmas…

me too…. i kept very quiet this xmas cept for hanging out here… needed to know other people felt the same about all that fake happy that goes on…. hehe, well, we can at least now say the shortest day of the year has passed and things literally will be getting brighter… thats something ))) > I’m new here btw.. I’m almost certainly bipolar (maybe *only* > cyclothymic)… the docs seem a bit unsure… atm I’m seeing a clinical > psychologist for ‘assessment’… > This seems like a nice place…

hiya, welcome )))) i’m a fellow cyclothymic. i was diagnosed just under a year ago… been coming to terms with the idea of being BP since. this is a cool place ))) i hope you’ll find a lot of support here, as i have. keep an eye out on lynda’s posts of medical information, i’ve found them invaluable just in learning about BP, and occasionally things crop up about cyclothymia too. yeah, i understand what you mean about "only" cyclothymic… it might be milder… but in some ways the rapid cycles are more confusing, and emotionally exhausting i find too… i seem to be either racing around and gabbling ten to the dozen at the moment, or really depressed…. are you on any meds?… i’d be interested to know how you find them, if you’re okay about chatting about them… i’m still trying to work all of the med stuff out myself. take care atb m — ~~~~~>><:>~~~~~ iriXx "… faith is being sure of what we hope for, and certain of what we cannot see"

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>>– >Steven >http://www.davecovcomedy.com/ > Hi Steven, > I love your link – I am a Python fanatic – and > I go into convulsions over the Mouse Episode of > "Fawlty Towers".  "You put Basil in the Ratattouille?"

Hi Squiggles… Just before Xmas my girlfriend and I sat down and enjoyed the Boxed Set of Fawlty Towers… two episodes a night… great stuff. I love loads of different kinds of comedy… the link I used points to the more mainstream sort… my favourite kind is the Chris Morris type of savage satire. VERY cathartic. ) — Steven http://www.davecovcomedy.com/

Response:

> Taking down the tree….putting away the decorations….looking forward > to Spring.

im  going to choose to bum you all out by feeling sorry for myself. no tree, no decorations, no family, no party, no love. none for me this year. big flat NUTHIN. not even allowed to feel the feelings i felt. just cold. ice, freezing, coldness. i hate my family and i hope they die violent painful lonely deaths somewhere far away from me, and that i get my daughter home where she belongs asap. i mean that. in case you thought i was kidding, let me say it again. i hope that my stepmother and my father die vicious violent lonely painful deaths far away from everyone they care about (although they dont care about anyone so that is kind of meaningless) and that my daughter and i live the rest of our lives as far away from them and their insanity as we can possibly get ourselves. so there. i need a miracle this holiday. thats what its gonna take. gonna go have coffee now. you can return to your regularly scheduled humanity. > — > LyndaNP > Reality isn’t the way you wish things to be, nor the way > they appear to be, but the way they actually are. > – Robert J. Ringer

– its a buck:  dancer’s choice, my friend better take my advice – you know all the rules by now and the fire from the ice. think this through with me; let me know your mind oh, what i want to know is – are you kind ? ~~ blessed are we to dwell in these beautiful temples ~~

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- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> Taking down the tree….putting away the decorations….looking forward > to Spring. > im  going to choose to bum you all out by feeling sorry for myself. no > tree, no decorations, no family, no party, no love. > none for me this year. big flat NUTHIN. > not even allowed to feel the feelings i felt. just cold. ice, freezing, > coldness. > i hate my family and i hope they die violent painful lonely deaths > somewhere far away from me, and that i get my daughter home where she > belongs asap. > i mean that. in case you thought i was kidding, let me say it again. i > hope that my stepmother and my father die vicious violent lonely painful > deaths far away from everyone they care about (although they dont care > about anyone so that is kind of meaningless) and that my daughter and i > live the rest of our lives as far away from them and their insanity as > we can possibly get ourselves. > so there. > i need a miracle this holiday. thats what its gonna take. gonna go have > coffee now. you can return to your regularly scheduled humanity. > — > LyndaNP > Reality isn’t the way you wish things to be, nor the way > they appear to be, but the way they actually are. > – Robert J. Ringer > —

Anna, I am sorry – i forget how bad your situation is; please feel free to rant as much as you like. I don’t know what kind of advice to give, i’m rather misanthropic myself.  Actually, I do just well among people who are gentle, but most groups I know and relatives and so forth are just so aggressive, that I want to hide.  This is what I miss about my world – academia the most.  I should have been a monk or a monkette, lol. Squiggles

Response:

Taking down the tree….putting away the decorations….looking forward to Spring. — LyndaNP Reality isn’t the way you wish things to be, nor the way they appear to be, but the way they actually are. – Robert J. Ringer

Response:

> Taking down the tree….putting away the decorations….looking forward > to Spring.

Yes. Great isn’t it! I hate all the enforced jollity of Xmas… I’m new here btw.. I’m almost certainly bipolar (maybe *only* cyclothymic)… the docs seem a bit unsure… atm I’m seeing a clinical psychologist for ‘assessment’… This seems like a nice place… — Steven http://www.davecovcomedy.com/

Response:

> — > Steven > http://www.davecovcomedy.com/

Hi Steven, I love your link – I am a Python fanatic – and I go into convulsions over the Mouse Episode of "Fawlty Towers".  "You put Basil in the Ratattouille?" Squiggles

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Question:

> Galen? > Larry, > look at "… pharmacy " section ; Galen was > the proponent of the theory that dose was critical > in pharmacology and a drug could be a poison under > the wrong dose. > Squiggles > http://www.geocities.com/omermalik_2000/galen_2.htm

Oh, THAT Galen. For some reason, I was searching my brain for  someone more "modern". It is an honour to be linked in any way to a great mind like Galen. Lar

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- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> Another thing I am looking for I guess, is whether lithium > is "disease-specific" – ahhh, if only all drugs matched > the illness, it could be used as a diagnostic tool – that’s > what i’m looking for.  I think Dr. David Healy referred to > that happy situation as "The Magic Bullet". > thanks FierceWaters > Squiggles > I came across the answer to that while looking for the other information I > collected; the answer is no, lithium is not disease-specific. At least 10% > of classic BP1 subjects obtain no relief from lithium. In fact, some studies > have specifically selected lithium "high-responders" in order to try and > figure out why lithium works for them, and not the others. > Lar

Aha.  Well, 10% could be a misdiagnosis or misperception of the bipolar symptoms – i know something sounds wrong with this argument but I don’t have my list of fallacies at my side. Squiggles

Response:

> One final comment: the dose makes the poison. You could view lithium > prophylaxis as sub-lethal chronic poisoning. The "response" of BPers is as > much a function of their starting point, as it is of the toxic effects of > lithium. > Lar > Ouch!  You sound like Galen. > Squiggles

Galen?

Response:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> > One final comment: the dose makes the poison. You could view lithium > > prophylaxis as sub-lethal chronic poisoning. The "response" of BPers is > as > > much a function of their starting point, as it is of the toxic effects > of > > lithium. > > Lar > Ouch!  You sound like Galen. > Squiggles > Galen?

Larry, look at "… pharmacy " section ; Galen was the proponent of the theory that dose was critical in pharmacology and a drug could be a poison under the wrong dose. Squiggles http://www.geocities.com/omermalik_2000/galen_2.htm

Response:

> Another thing I am looking for I guess, is whether lithium > is "disease-specific" – ahhh, if only all drugs matched > the illness, it could be used as a diagnostic tool – that’s > what i’m looking for.  I think Dr. David Healy referred to > that happy situation as "The Magic Bullet". > thanks FierceWaters > Squiggles

I came across the answer to that while looking for the other information I collected; the answer is no, lithium is not disease-specific. At least 10% of classic BP1 subjects obtain no relief from lithium. In fact, some studies have specifically selected lithium "high-responders" in order to try and figure out why lithium works for them, and not the others. Lar

Response:

> I can’t remember where I read it, but I read in a scientific journal > that lithium will NOT have an effect on non-bipolar clients.  I will > try to find it….it may have been in the new journal Bipolar > Disorders, in one of the first issues.

The reports vary according to what is looked for – I am not savvy on statistical significance designs; but yes, I have seen conclusions of both – not effective on Beepers and effective in some regard or other. I am not at all certain that these studies take into effect the amount of time necessary to adjust and stabilize on the drug. In my experience, I felt like a 600 lb. lead weight for 3 months – very lethargic.  However, I was greatful to be taken out of a very bad state of agitated depression and mania and did not mind.  The important point though, is that after 3 months, I did not feel that heaviness or lethargy.  My husband described me as "energetic" still – much more that him. Another thing I am looking for I guess, is whether lithium is "disease-specific" – ahhh, if only all drugs matched the illness, it could be used as a diagnostic tool – that’s what i’m looking for.  I think Dr. David Healy referred to that happy situation as "The Magic Bullet". thanks FierceWaters Squiggles

Response:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> > my doctor told me the story of when he was studying the effects of > lithium > > (he has published several papers on it and won the mogen schou prize for > > contributions to research in the treatment of bipolar disorder) that he > and > > several other medical personnel took large doses (therapeutic levels) of > > lithium for several months in order to ascertain exactly what you have > been > > looking for. the result was the same constellation of side-effects that > > people with bp have, and a noticeable flattening of the general affect > > (blunting, i recall, was a term he described the state of mood as … > > blunted). > > all of the participants, as far as i recall, managed to minimize weight > gain > > by exercising and watching their diets, bet even so, there were > significant > > examples of weight gain. > > this has all been part of this doctor’s ongoing research into the > long-term > > effectiveness of lithium treatment – it is, i believe, a thirty-year > study – > > the largest of its kind in the world (lithium was only introduced in the > > 50’s … so it is a very comprehensive study that looks at a medication > that > > can be taken over a lifetime). > > unfortunately, the fruits of this work are not yet available – although > you > > can certainly find other articles by this doctor. > > another thing of note is that lithium is banned in japan – the japanese > have > > a genetic predisposition for developing lithium toxicity – so they > banned > > the drug outright. that is why the other mood stabilizers such as > topamax, > > gabapentin and neurontin were developed (they also use valproic acid and > > carpamezapine). > > i do not know when the lithium study will be published – it will > definitely > > be in the major psychiatric journals. the name of the doctor is groff. > paul > > groff. > > peace, > > sj > Thanks very much Simon, > I’m collecting all this stuff and will look into it; > I find what you say very interesting.  I, myself have > taken lithium for 25 years, with normal weight gain, > developed and controlled hypothyroidism, and no other > side effects (except when taken with higher doses of > benzos, esp. Rivotril – bad interaction – now taking > R at lower dose);  There is of course modulation of > dose and your doctor can adjust that.  From a cursory > glance at what Larry provided and what you say, I think > it looks like lithium works on everyone but especially > on beepers. > tx > Squiggles > One final comment: the dose makes the poison. You could view lithium > prophylaxis as sub-lethal chronic poisoning. The "response" of BPers is as > much a function of their starting point, a it is of the toxic effects of > lithium. > Lar

Ouch!  You sound like Galen. Squiggles

Response:

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> my doctor told me the story of when he was studying the effects of lithium > (he has published several papers on it and won the mogen schou prize for > contributions to research in the treatment of bipolar disorder) that he and > several other medical personnel took large doses (therapeutic levels) of > lithium for several months in order to ascertain exactly what you have been > looking for. the result was the same constellation of side-effects that > people with bp have, and a noticeable flattening of the general affect > (blunting, i recall, was a term he described the state of mood as … > blunted). > all of the participants, as far as i recall, managed to minimize weight gain > by exercising and watching their diets, bet even so, there were significant > examples of weight gain. > this has all been part of this doctor’s ongoing research into the long-term > effectiveness of lithium treatment – it is, i believe, a thirty-year study – > the largest of its kind in the world (lithium was only introduced in the > 50’s … so it is a very comprehensive study that looks at a medication that > can be taken over a lifetime). > unfortunately, the fruits of this work are not yet available – although you > can certainly find other articles by this doctor. > another thing of note is that lithium is banned in japan – the japanese have > a genetic predisposition for developing lithium toxicity – so they banned > the drug outright. that is why the other mood stabilizers such as topamax, > gabapentin and neurontin were developed (they also use valproic acid and > carpamezapine). > i do not know when the lithium study will be published – it will definitely > be in the major psychiatric journals. the name of the doctor is groff. paul > groff. > peace, > sj > Thanks very much Simon, > I’m collecting all this stuff and will look into it; > I find what you say very interesting.  I, myself have > taken lithium for 25 years, with normal weight gain, > developed and controlled hypothyroidism, and no other > side effects (except when taken with higher doses of > benzos, esp. Rivotril – bad interaction – now taking > R at lower dose);  There is of course modulation of > dose and your doctor can adjust that.  From a cursory > glance at what Larry provided and what you say, I think > it looks like lithium works on everyone but especially > on beepers. > tx > Squiggles

One final comment: the dose makes the poison. You could view lithium prophylaxis as sub-lethal chronic poisoning. The "response" of BPers is as much a function of their starting point, a it is of the toxic effects of lithium. Lar

Response:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – > my doctor told me the story of when he was studying the effects of lithium > (he has published several papers on it and won the mogen schou prize for > contributions to research in the treatment of bipolar disorder) that he and > several other medical personnel took large doses (therapeutic levels) of > lithium for several months in order to ascertain exactly what you have been > looking for. the result was the same constellation of side-effects that > people with bp have, and a noticeable flattening of the general affect > (blunting, i recall, was a term he described the state of mood as … > blunted). > all of the participants, as far as i recall, managed to minimize weight gain > by exercising and watching their diets, bet even so, there were significant > examples of weight gain. > this has all been part of this doctor’s ongoing research into the long-term > effectiveness of lithium treatment – it is, i believe, a thirty-year study – > the largest of its kind in the world (lithium was only introduced in the > 50’s … so it is a very comprehensive study that looks at a medication that > can be taken over a lifetime). > unfortunately, the fruits of this work are not yet available – although you > can certainly find other articles by this doctor. > another thing of note is that lithium is banned in japan – the japanese have > a genetic predisposition for developing lithium toxicity – so they banned > the drug outright. that is why the other mood stabilizers such as topamax, > gabapentin and neurontin were developed (they also use valproic acid and > carpamezapine). > i do not know when the lithium study will be published – it will definitely > be in the major psychiatric journals. the name of the doctor is groff. paul > groff. > peace, > sj

Thanks very much Simon, I’m collecting all this stuff and will look into it; I find what you say very interesting.  I, myself have taken lithium for 25 years, with normal weight gain, developed and controlled hypothyroidism, and no other side effects (except when taken with higher doses of benzos, esp. Rivotril – bad interaction – now taking R at lower dose);  There is of course modulation of dose and your doctor can adjust that.  From a cursory glance at what Larry provided and what you say, I think it looks like lithium works on everyone but especially on beepers. tx Squiggles

Response:

my doctor told me the story of when he was studying the effects of lithium (he has published several papers on it and won the mogen schou prize for contributions to research in the treatment of bipolar disorder) that he and several other medical personnel took large doses (therapeutic levels) of lithium for several months in order to ascertain exactly what you have been looking for. the result was the same constellation of side-effects that people with bp have, and a noticeable flattening of the general affect (blunting, i recall, was a term he described the state of mood as … blunted). all of the participants, as far as i recall, managed to minimize weight gain by exercising and watching their diets, bet even so, there were significant examples of weight gain. this has all been part of this doctor’s ongoing research into the long-term effectiveness of lithium treatment – it is, i believe, a thirty-year study – the largest of its kind in the world (lithium was only introduced in the 50’s … so it is a very comprehensive study that looks at a medication that can be taken over a lifetime). unfortunately, the fruits of this work are not yet available – although you can certainly find other articles by this doctor. another thing of note is that lithium is banned in japan – the japanese have a genetic predisposition for developing lithium toxicity – so they banned the drug outright. that is why the other mood stabilizers such as topamax, gabapentin and neurontin were developed (they also use valproic acid and carpamezapine). i do not know when the lithium study will be published – it will definitely be in the major psychiatric journals. the name of the doctor is groff. paul groff. peace, sj

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> Hi everyone, > I am still searching for a good reply to this > question:  "What is the effect of lithium > on normal (i.e. not bipolar) subjects? > I would like to add this piece of information > to my lithium site.  I am also personally interested > in extraneous circumstances which may distort > the diagnosis of bipolar. > A trustworthy test would be, if lithium works > on a subject, then he or she is bipolar – but this > too is not addressed in the literature I’ve found. > Thanks for reading; > Squiggles

Response:

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> Hi everyone, > I am still searching for a good reply to this > question:  "What is the effect of lithium > on normal (i.e. not bipolar) subjects? > I would like to add this piece of information > to my lithium site.  I am also personally interested > in extraneous circumstances which may distort > the diagnosis of bipolar. > A trustworthy test would be, if lithium works > on a subject, then he or she is bipolar – but this > too is not addressed in the literature I’ve found. > Thanks for reading; > Squiggles

Perhaps the serendipitous discovery of the calming effect of lithium salts on rats would be worthy of consideration? The table salt substitutes lithium and potassium chloride were found to be toxic if simply substituted ounce for ounce for sodium chloride. This lead to rodent studies of varying proportions of lithium and potassium chlorides with sodium chloride, to test for a suitable sodium-reduced salt. It was noted that moderate doses of lithium had a calming effect on the rats. Someone had a light-bulb moment, and lithium salts were then given to humans in sublethal concentrations, as a treatment for mania. At least, that’s how I remember the story. Larry

Response:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> Hi everyone, > I am still searching for a good reply to this > question:  "What is the effect of lithium > on normal (i.e. not bipolar) subjects? > I would like to add this piece of information > to my lithium site.  I am also personally interested > in extraneous circumstances which may distort > the diagnosis of bipolar. > A trustworthy test would be, if lithium works > on a subject, then he or she is bipolar – but this > too is not addressed in the literature I’ve found. > Thanks for reading; > Squiggles > Perhaps the serendipitous discovery of the calming effect of lithium salts > on rats would be worthy of consideration? The table salt substitutes lithium > and potassium chloride were found to be toxic if simply substituted ounce > for ounce for sodium chloride. This lead to rodent studies of varying > proportions of lithium and potassium chlorides with sodium chloride, to test > for a suitable sodium-reduced salt. It was noted that moderate doses of > lithium had a calming effect on the rats. Someone had a light-bulb moment, > and lithium salts were then given to humans in sublethal concentrations, as > a treatment for mania. At least, that’s how I remember the story. > Larry

Yes.  A clue – right! On rats, maybe some study on humans – thanks for the lead Larry. You’re ubiquitous lol. Squiggles

Response:

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> > Hi everyone, > > I am still searching for a good reply to this > > question:  "What is the effect of lithium > > on normal (i.e. not bipolar) subjects? > > I would like to add this piece of information > > to my lithium site.  I am also personally interested > > in extraneous circumstances which may distort > > the diagnosis of bipolar. > > A trustworthy test would be, if lithium works > > on a subject, then he or she is bipolar – but this > > too is not addressed in the literature I’ve found. > > Thanks for reading; > > Squiggles > Perhaps the serendipitous discovery of the calming effect of lithium salts > on rats would be worthy of consideration? The table salt substitutes lithium > and potassium chloride were found to be toxic if simply substituted ounce > for ounce for sodium chloride. This lead to rodent studies of varying > proportions of lithium and potassium chlorides with sodium chloride, to test > for a suitable sodium-reduced salt. It was noted that moderate doses of > lithium had a calming effect on the rats. Someone had a light-bulb moment, > and lithium salts were then given to humans in sublethal concentrations, as > a treatment for mania. At least, that’s how I remember the story. > Larry > Yes.  A clue – right! On rats, maybe some study on humans – > thanks for the lead Larry. You’re ubiquitous lol. > Squiggles

Ah, yes, I revel in ubiquity. I was off a little on my history of lithium, so I present the following: A true account of the history of lithium prophelaxis: http://jama.ama-assn.org/issues/v281n24/ffull/jmn0623-1.html http://willmar.ridgewater.mnscu.edu/library/nursing/gomez.htm I was also able to find a few studies which assessed the effect of lithium on normal subjects. Here ya go: J Affect Disord 2000 Nov;60(3):147-57 A double-blind, placebo-controlled study of the effects of lithium on cognition in healthy subjects: mild and selective effects on learning. Stip E, Dufresne J, Lussier I, Yatham L. Centre de Recherche Fernand Seguin, Hopital L.H. Lafontaine, Universite de Montreal, 7331 Hochelaga, Quebec H1N 3V2, Montreal, Canada. BACKGROUND: Several studies have shown cognitive impairment in short-term memory, long-term memory and psychomotor speed in bipolar patients taking lithium. The aim of the study was to look at the effect of lithium in normal subjects (N=30) taking lithium for 3 weeks. A comprehensive battery was used to assess attention and memory. METHODS: Subjects were randomized to double-blind treatment with either lithium (N=15) or placebo (N=15) for a 3-week period. Thirteen participants in the lithium group and 15 in the placebo group completed the study. The lithium and placebo were administered twice daily in doses varying from 1050 to 1950 mg (mean=1569 mg). The initial daily dose was calculated according to the Pepin formula to achieve a blood serum lithium level of about 0.8 mmol/l. Cognitive performance (attention, memory) was assessed in each subjects during three periods, i.e. at baseline, after 3 weeks of lithium or placebo, and 2 weeks after discontinuation of study medication. RESULTS: In short-term memory tasks, the performance of subjects in the lithium group was worst 3 weeks after lithium treatment compared to 2 weeks after discontinuation. In long-term memory, a significantly higher number of words was recalled by the placebo group but not the lithium group. CONCLUSIONS: Lithium may have an effect on learning when long-term explicit memory test are administered repeatedly. It means that the practice effect when a subject performs the same task several times is less in the lithium-treated group than in the placebo group. This practice effect is related to the learning of a task. Biol Trace Elem Res 1994 Jan;40(1):89-101 Effects of nutritional lithium supplementation on mood. A placebo-controlled study with former drug users. Schrauzer GN, de Vroey E. Department of Chemistry and Biochemistry, University of California, San Diego, La Jolla 92093-0314. A total of 24 subjects, 16 males and 8 females, average age 29.4 +/- 6.5 y, were randomly divided into two groups. Group A received 400 micrograms/d of lithium orally, in tablets composed of a naturally lithium-rich brewer’s yeast, for 4 wk. Group B was given normal, lithium-free brewer’s yeast as a placebo. All the subjects of the study were former drug users (mostly heroin and crystal methamphetamine). Some of the subjects were violent offenders or had a history of domestic violence. The subjects completed weekly self-administered mood test questionnaires, which contained 29 items covering parameters measuring mental and physical activity, ability to think and work, mood, and emotionality. In the lithium group, the total mood test scores increased steadily and significantly during the period of supplementation. The 29 items were furthermore placed into three subcategories reflecting happiness, friendliness, and energy, as well as their negative counterparts. In Group A, the scores increased consistently for all subcategories until wk 4 and remained essentially the same in wk 5. In Group B, the combined mood test scores showed no consistent changes during the same period. The only positive change in some members of Group B occurred during wk 1 and was attributed to a placebo effect. In Group B, the placebo effect was noticeable for the subcategories of energy and friendliness; the happiness scores declined during the entire period of observation. Based on these results and the analysis of voluntary written comments of study participants, it is concluded that lithium at the dosages chosen had a mood-improving and -stabilizing effect. Biol Psychiatry 1993 Dec 15;34(12):878-84 Mood variability in normal subjects on lithium. Barton CD Jr, Dufer D, Monderer R, Cohen MJ, Fuller HJ, Clark MR, DePaulo JR Jr. Department of Psychiatry and Behavioral Sciences, Johns Hopkins University School of Medicine, Baltimore, MD. To investigate the effect of lithium carbonate on normal volunteers’ moods, we randomly assigned 30 subjects to 5 weeks each of placebo and lithium treatment with crossover at midstudy. Lithium levels were maintained during the treatment period at a mean serum level of 0.54 mEq/L. All subjects completed visual analogue mood scales (VAMS) daily throughout the study period; segmented visual analogue scales (SVAS) measuring mood, anxiety, and energy and the Profile of Mood States (POMS) were completed weekly at testing sessions. Neither mean mood nor mood variability as assessed by the delta square (mean square successive difference) differed between placebo and lithium conditions. Segmented visual analogue scale mood ratings were highly correlated with the VAMS and similarly showed no difference between conditions. The self-rated mood variability, however, declined significantly in both experimental conditions as a function of time on study. None of the POMS factors differed between placebo and lithium conditions. These data suggest that lithium, in modest doses administered over 5 weeks, does not have a substantial mood-stabilizing effect in normal subjects. Biol Psychiatry 1990 Apr 1;27(7):711-22 The effects of lithium carbonate on healthy volunteers: mood stabilization? Calil HM, Zwicker AP, Klepacz S. Department of Psychobiology, Escola Paulista de Medicina, Sao Paulo, Brazil. A 2-month lithium-placebo double-blind cross-over study was carried out with 17 healthy volunteers. Their mood was self-rated: twice daily (AM, PM) with the Visual Analogue Mood Scale (VAMS); weekly with the analogue scales for subjective states and body symptoms; and three times (basal and at the end of each treatment period) with the Profile of Mood States (POMS). Memory and reaction time were also assessed, but did not show any change. The mean VAMS score decreased during lithium treatment, but the mean mood variability, a measure of the mean successive differences between consecutive mood ratings (delta squared), did not change significantly. There was a tendency toward decreased mood variability on lithium, both during the full 1-month treatment period and in the last week of treatment, when all volunteers had a lithium serum level ranging from 0.6 to 1.0 mEq/liter. The lower mean VAMS scores on lithium could be attributed to lithium-induced dysphoric mood as recorded on the analogue scales and POMS. However, very large inter- and intraindividual differences in response to lithium were observed. Actually, lithium even had an opposite effect on some volunteers’ mood. The data and problems involved with assessment of mood and its changes are discussed. Arch Gen Psychiatry 1977 Mar;34(3):346-51 The effect of lithium carbonate on affect, mood, and personality of normal subjects. Judd LL, Hubbard B, Janowsky DS, Huey LY, Attewell PA. Data reflecting affect, mood, and personality attributes of 23 normal men were compared after two weeks of placebo administration and two weeks of therapeutic serum lithium levels (mean, 0.91 mEq/liter). The study was a placebo-controlled, split-half crossover, double-blind design. Affect and mood were measured by three self-rating instruments, independent rater observation, and by the subjects’ "significant others." Two personality inventories were administered. Substantial affect and mood changes are induced by lithium carbonate. Lethargy, dysphoria, a loss of interest in interacting with others and the environment, and a state of increased mental confusion were reported. No generalized effects were found in the responses to ther personality inventories.

Response:

> Squiggles – I have taken lithium in 1989.  They wanted to augment ADs I was > taking to see if something would work.  What it did was exactly what this > Doctor above said here.  It flattened me so depressed it was the most > horrible experience.  I’d put it in the BIG YUK category of 10.  I retained > fluid horribly, and had some awful tremor going on.  Considering my problem > with easy weight gain and drugs, a long term round with lithium would have > turned me into that Michelin man for sure.  I tell you about the time they > tried to augment with Amphetamines with an AD about a months or so later. > It also makes the list.

Carrie, first let me say that I’d like to drop by your house and kick the shit out of your husband for yelling at you like that.  I suspect he knows he’s only making the problem worse. My pdoc told me that if the Zoloft doesn’t continue to work for me that Lithium was my alternative.  (said it wouldn’t do any good to try Prozac or Paxil, since they were the same as Zoloft)  So I wrote Jock and asked him what he thought about lithium and here’s how the conversation went: > Do you take lithium, Jock? > I can’t take the anti-seizure mood stabilizers and I’m about at the top of > the Sertraline dosage.  It works fine, til I hit another bad patch.  Then > it gets increased and works til next time.  I may try lithium next and see > if it works for me.

No i dont take it. Its for hormonal disorders which result in bi-polar disorder. I have an aut-immune disorder which affects my joints and have to take all sorts of stuff for that but not Lithium. I would strongly counsel you to not take Lithium unless your mood swings are absolutely unbearable. Even then, only if its causing relationships which you have to fall apart. Something i dont think you will be troubled with knowing your caring nature. Lithium is a salt type which is found in rivers in the Orient. Psychiatry researchers noticed that in South East Asia, there were very few cases of manic-depressive people which have the type of bi-polar disorder which is measurable by the hormone householding in the blood. Researcherswere baffled and it took them a while to find out that there was a relationship between hormonal balance and this salt type which flowed naturally into the rivers and thus to the drinking water of South East Asians. This mineral salt, has been chemically reproduced in the drug known as Lithium. But the flip side is that the drug flattens emotions and your very facial expression is that of a mask after long usage. It holds lots of fluid and some people gain weight up to 60 pounds in one month. It also doesnt always take on with everyone. Some patients can actually go manic with it. People on Lithium must go and have their blood checked every 3 months because it can cause thrombosis as well allthough its rare. Lithium can cause more problems than it solves and only in severe cases should a psychiatrist prescribe it. So now that i have scared you, here is the good news. Zyprexa is a good alternative to Lithium. It has a stabalising factor and it doesnt have the evil side effects that Lithium does. It does hold fluid slightly and you would have to take urine stimulation pills for that. It also causes you to involuntary move. You get symptoms like Parkinsons disease. But that can be counteracted by Tremblex or Akineton. Down side is that the Tremblex and Akineton only start working when they have built enough levels in your blood. So for the first couple of weeks you will have such shaky hands, you will have trouble even writing. I do hope this doesnt upset you to hear. Psycofarmacyis really still in its infancy. I notice how you tell us a lot about going to bed early and rising early. This is good. Having a regular lifestyle helps a lot and some things which are caused by trauma cannot really be treated by drugs. You know i am speaking from experience as well. People like you and i go through life and are constantly reminded of how horrible life can be. We get upset when people react against us. We find it difficult to take things in our stride. But we do get on with things dont we? You are lucky to have good friends like Regina. A real good friend is sometimes even better than a partner. But life itself inspires us from time to time. We take great joy in art and sometimes even use art in different forms to express the unspeakable. To let it all come out. But that aside, i do wish you well these coming times. When your mood swings, just go with the flow. Sleep enough and have as regular a life as possible. By regular i mean a fixed daily rythm. But please put off taking Lithium unless you really need to. Peace and God Bless, Jock — Wordy Jingle Jangle Jingle Here comes Mr. Bingle With another message from Kris Kringle

Response:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> > Squiggles, I passed your question along to a mental health professional > > friend of mine.  Here is his response. > > Squiggles wrote… > > > Hi everyone, > > > I am still searching for a good reply to this > > > question:  "What is the effect of lithium > > > on normal (i.e. not bipolar) subjects? > > Jock: I could think of no other reason to prescribe Lithium other than > for > > the relief of bi-polar disorder. It has so many bad, I mean REAL bad > side > > effects that there would be no justification of non bi-polar’s in using > it. > > The extreme weight gain should not be underestimated. I have known > patients > > to gain 60 pounds in a month. > > So I would not recommend prescribing it to "normal" patients. OTOH the > idea > > of testing on 2 groups i.e. bi-polar and non bi-polar would be > interesting. > > Because there is no study that I have heard of, I can only guess what it > > would do. I would guess it would "flatten" emotions. Having ups and down > > days is very normal. Being sad or a bit depressed is human and not a bad > > thing. OTOH its also very normal to feel elated. That new job, new love > in > > ones life or realising your dream is all very legitimate reasons to be > > elated. > > So my guess is that Lithium would have the same side effects (they are > > purely physical and can be measured in the bloodstream) but would make > the > > patient lose the ups and downs. > > Maybe it is noticed that Asian people especially from the far south > eastern > > part are very level minded. Often they dont show emotions. This has > become > > an ethnical trait but can be traced back to the effects of a salt like > > mineral in south far east Asian rivers. This mineral is the one that > > Lithium > > imitates. The noticable flattened out emotion of Chinese and other south > > east Asians that have emigrated to other parts pf the world and still > have > > their offspring being rather "flat" emotionally is a passed down thing > from > > one generation to another. The fact that Chinese dont often intermarry > > causes the offspring to act in this fashion as well. We all have a great > > effect on one another. Chinese people usually living in the same part of > > town ( i.e. Chinatown) is an explanation of peering among Chinese > > youngsters. This peering causes them to have the same traits in life. > > > I would like to add this piece of information > > > to my lithium site.  I am also personally interested > > > in extraneous circumstances which may distort > > > the diagnosis of bipolar. > > Jock: Peer pressure and the tendancy of our youth today of being > addicted > > to > > stimuli. Flashing lights, thumping music, electrical beats etc, etc > causes > > our youth to be actually addicted to stimuli. When it is quiet and they > are > > in a place of tranquility, the youth tend to get depressed. But will > pick > > up > > when they get back to the "zap culture". > > Parents with careers that takes up time often produce children that have > > similar traits to the bi-polar. > > Some parents think that if their children dont do ballet, appreciate > art, > > go > > to sports, actually they contribute to the vast amount of stimuli that > the > > youth are allready under. Monday, ballet lessons, Tuesday piano, > Wedensday > > football, Thursday swimming, Friday art lessons. Weekends are spent > zapping > > the TV and practising all the other things they attend during the week. > On > > top of this they have a normal curricullum of schooling. When on > vacation, > > the kids dont know what to do with themselves. They are addicted to > being > > busy. We adults have also contributed to a feeling of being not worthy > if > > the children dont achieve enough. > > > A trustworthy test would be, if lithium works > > > on a subject, then he or she is bipolar – but this > > > too is not addressed in the literature I’ve found. > > > Thanks for reading; > > > Squiggles > > How can one know if Lithium works if the individual has had no symptoms? > > Also there is the dynamic I have described of being busy all the time. > > Lithium would be of no use to such people. It would stop them from > > achieving > > and actualising themselves. That problem is a social problem and not a > > bi-polar one. It is best treated by having the most severe cases living > in > > a > > sociotherapeutic environment for a while. > > Wordy > > Jingle Jangle Jingle > > Here comes Mr. Bingle > > With another message from Kris Kringle > > — > Thanks for going into the trouble Wordy.  This is > a psychosocial perspective I suppose, which is significant > in its context.  I can see Jock’s point that it is unlikely > that anyone would prescribe lithium without good reason, > i.e. without witnessing symptoms of bipolarism – that is > what my doctor did – alas, you have probably heard of > differential diagnosis  - that is something done in medicine > which is necessitated by the many possible causes for the > same symptoms.  Shish – nothing is simple! > Well, actually I still want to hear from people who > have taken it or know of those who have taken it and who > are normal -testimonials or research. > I appreciate your critique for the environmental influences > in taking any of these drugs. > Squiggles > Squiggles – I have taken lithium in 1989.  They wanted to augment ADs I was > taking to see if something would work.  What it did was exactly what this > Doctor above said here.  It flattened me so depressed it was the most > horrible experience.  I’d put it in the BIG YUK category of 10.  I retained > fluid horribly, and had some awful tremor going on.  Considering my problem > with easy weight gain and drugs, a long term round with lithium would have > turned me into that Michelin man for sure.  I tell you about the time they > tried to augment with Amphetamines with an AD about a months or so later. > It also makes the list. > Carrie

Thanks Carrie, obviously sucked for you; still waiting for that elusive test of lithium on control subjects – i have had trouble finding this stuff; btw the highly respected, original research of lithium, Dr. Mogens Schou, actually tried it on himself (very honourable) and so did the disoverere – Cade. But I am looking for studies, studies, thanks – hope you are better now; Squiggles

Response:

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> Squiggles, I passed your question along to a mental health professional > friend of mine.  Here is his response. > Squiggles wrote… > > Hi everyone, > > I am still searching for a good reply to this > > question:  "What is the effect of lithium > > on normal (i.e. not bipolar) subjects? > Jock: I could think of no other reason to prescribe Lithium other than for > the relief of bi-polar disorder. It has so many bad, I mean REAL bad side > effects that there would be no justification of non bi-polar’s in using it. > The extreme weight gain should not be underestimated. I have known patients > to gain 60 pounds in a month. > So I would not recommend prescribing it to "normal" patients. OTOH the idea > of testing on 2 groups i.e. bi-polar and non bi-polar would be interesting. > Because there is no study that I have heard of, I can only guess what it > would do. I would guess it would "flatten" emotions. Having ups and down > days is very normal. Being sad or a bit depressed is human and not a bad > thing. OTOH its also very normal to feel elated. That new job, new love in > ones life or realising your dream is all very legitimate reasons to be > elated. > So my guess is that Lithium would have the same side effects (they are > purely physical and can be measured in the bloodstream) but would make the > patient lose the ups and downs. > Maybe it is noticed that Asian people especially from the far south eastern > part are very level minded. Often they dont show emotions. This has become > an ethnical trait but can be traced back to the effects of a salt like > mineral in south far east Asian rivers. This mineral is the one that > Lithium > imitates. The noticable flattened out emotion of Chinese and other south > east Asians that have emigrated to other parts pf the world and still have > their offspring being rather "flat" emotionally is a passed down thing from > one generation to another. The fact that Chinese dont often intermarry > causes the offspring to act in this fashion as well. We all have a great > effect on one another. Chinese people usually living in the same part of > town ( i.e. Chinatown) is an explanation of peering among Chinese > youngsters. This peering causes them to have the same traits in life. > > I would like to add this piece of information > > to my lithium site.  I am also personally interested > > in extraneous circumstances which may distort > > the diagnosis of bipolar. > Jock: Peer pressure and the tendancy of our youth today of being addicted > to > stimuli. Flashing lights, thumping music, electrical beats etc, etc causes > our youth to be actually addicted to stimuli. When it is quiet and they are > in a place of tranquility, the youth tend to get depressed. But will pick > up > when they get back to the "zap culture". > Parents with careers that takes up time often produce children that have > similar traits to the bi-polar. > Some parents think that if their children dont do ballet, appreciate art, > go > to sports, actually they contribute to the vast amount of stimuli that the > youth are allready under. Monday, ballet lessons, Tuesday piano, Wedensday > football, Thursday swimming, Friday art lessons. Weekends are spent zapping > the TV and practising all the other things they attend during the week. On > top of this they have a normal curricullum of schooling. When on vacation, > the kids dont know what to do with themselves. They are addicted to being > busy. We adults have also contributed to a feeling of being not worthy if > the children dont achieve enough. > > A trustworthy test would be, if lithium works > > on a subject, then he or she is bipolar – but this > > too is not addressed in the literature I’ve found. > > Thanks for reading; > > Squiggles > How can one know if Lithium works if the individual has had no symptoms? > Also there is the dynamic I have described of being busy all the time. > Lithium would be of no use to such people. It would stop them from > achieving > and actualising themselves. That problem is a social problem and not a > bi-polar one. It is best treated by having the most severe cases living in > a > sociotherapeutic environment for a while. > Wordy > Jingle Jangle Jingle > Here comes Mr. Bingle > With another message from Kris Kringle > — > Thanks for going into the trouble Wordy.  This is > a psychosocial perspective I suppose, which is significant > in its context.  I can see Jock’s point that it is unlikely > that anyone would prescribe lithium without good reason, > i.e. without witnessing symptoms of bipolarism – that is > what my doctor did – alas, you have probably heard of > differential diagnosis  - that is something done in medicine > which is necessitated by the many possible causes for the > same symptoms.  Shish – nothing is simple! > Well, actually I still want to hear from people who > have taken it or know of those who have taken it and who > are normal -testimonials or research. > I appreciate your critique for the environmental influences > in taking any of these drugs. > Squiggles

Squiggles – I have taken lithium in 1989.  They wanted to augment ADs I was taking to see if something would work.  What it did was exactly what this Doctor above said here.  It flattened me so depressed it was the most horrible experience.  I’d put it in the BIG YUK category of 10.  I retained fluid horribly, and had some awful tremor going on.  Considering my problem with easy weight gain and drugs, a long term round with lithium would have turned me into that Michelin man for sure.  I tell you about the time they tried to augment with Amphetamines with an AD about a months or so later. It also makes the list. Carrie

Response:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – > Squiggles, I passed your question along to a mental health professional > friend of mine.  Here is his response. > Squiggles wrote… > Hi everyone, > I am still searching for a good reply to this > question:  "What is the effect of lithium > on normal (i.e. not bipolar) subjects? > Jock: I could think of no other reason to prescribe Lithium other than for > the relief of bi-polar disorder. It has so many bad, I mean REAL bad side > effects that there would be no justification of non bi-polar’s in using it. > The extreme weight gain should not be underestimated. I have known patients > to gain 60 pounds in a month. > So I would not recommend prescribing it to "normal" patients. OTOH the idea > of testing on 2 groups i.e. bi-polar and non bi-polar would be interesting. > Because there is no study that I have heard of, I can only guess what it > would do. I would guess it would "flatten" emotions. Having ups and down > days is very normal. Being sad or a bit depressed is human and not a bad > thing. OTOH its also very normal to feel elated. That new job, new love in > ones life or realising your dream is all very legitimate reasons to be > elated. > So my guess is that Lithium would have the same side effects (they are > purely physical and can be measured in the bloodstream) but would make the > patient lose the ups and downs. > Maybe it is noticed that Asian people especially from the far south eastern > part are very level minded. Often they dont show emotions. This has become > an ethnical trait but can be traced back to the effects of a salt like > mineral in south far east Asian rivers. This mineral is the one that > Lithium > imitates. The noticable flattened out emotion of Chinese and other south > east Asians that have emigrated to other parts pf the world and still have > their offspring being rather "flat" emotionally is a passed down thing from > one generation to another. The fact that Chinese dont often intermarry > causes the offspring to act in this fashion as well. We all have a great > effect on one another. Chinese people usually living in the same part of > town ( i.e. Chinatown) is an explanation of peering among Chinese > youngsters. This peering causes them to have the same traits in life. > I would like to add this piece of information > to my lithium site.  I am also personally interested > in extraneous circumstances which may distort > the diagnosis of bipolar. > Jock: Peer pressure and the tendancy of our youth today of being addicted > to > stimuli. Flashing lights, thumping music, electrical beats etc, etc causes > our youth to be actually addicted to stimuli. When it is quiet and they are > in a place of tranquility, the youth tend to get depressed. But will pick > up > when they get back to the "zap culture". > Parents with careers that takes up time often produce children that have > similar traits to the bi-polar. > Some parents think that if their children dont do ballet, appreciate art, > go > to sports, actually they contribute to the vast amount of stimuli that the > youth are allready under. Monday, ballet lessons, Tuesday piano, Wedensday > football, Thursday swimming, Friday art lessons. Weekends are spent zapping > the TV and practising all the other things they attend during the week. On > top of this they have a normal curricullum of schooling. When on vacation, > the kids dont know what to do with themselves. They are addicted to being > busy. We adults have also contributed to a feeling of being not worthy if > the children dont achieve enough. > A trustworthy test would be, if lithium works > on a subject, then he or she is bipolar – but this > too is not addressed in the literature I’ve found. > Thanks for reading; > Squiggles > How can one know if Lithium works if the individual has had no symptoms? > Also there is the dynamic I have described of being busy all the time. > Lithium would be of no use to such people. It would stop them from > achieving > and actualising themselves. That problem is a social problem and not a > bi-polar one. It is best treated by having the most severe cases living in > a > sociotherapeutic environment for a while. > Wordy > Jingle Jangle Jingle > Here comes Mr. Bingle > With another message from Kris Kringle > —

Thanks for going into the trouble Wordy.  This is a psychosocial perspective I suppose, which is significant in its context.  I can see Jock’s point that it is unlikely that anyone would prescribe lithium without good reason, i.e. without witnessing symptoms of bipolarism – that is what my doctor did – alas, you have probably heard of differential diagnosis  - that is something done in medicine which is necessitated by the many possible causes for the same symptoms.  Shish – nothing is simple! Well, actually I still want to hear from people who have taken it or know of those who have taken it and who are normal -testimonials or research. I appreciate your critique for the environmental influences in taking any of these drugs. Squiggles

Response:

Hi everyone, I am still searching for a good reply to this question:  "What is the effect of lithium on normal (i.e. not bipolar) subjects? I would like to add this piece of information to my lithium site.  I am also personally interested in extraneous circumstances which may distort the diagnosis of bipolar. A trustworthy test would be, if lithium works on a subject, then he or she is bipolar – but this too is not addressed in the literature I’ve found. Thanks for reading; Squiggles

Response:

Squiggles, I passed your question along to a mental health professional friend of mine.  Here is his response. Squiggles wrote… > Hi everyone, > I am still searching for a good reply to this > question:  "What is the effect of lithium > on normal (i.e. not bipolar) subjects?

Jock: I could think of no other reason to prescribe Lithium other than for the relief of bi-polar disorder. It has so many bad, I mean REAL bad side effects that there would be no justification of non bi-polar’s in using it. The extreme weight gain should not be underestimated. I have known patients to gain 60 pounds in a month. So I would not recommend prescribing it to "normal" patients. OTOH the idea of testing on 2 groups i.e. bi-polar and non bi-polar would be interesting. Because there is no study that I have heard of, I can only guess what it would do. I would guess it would "flatten" emotions. Having ups and down days is very normal. Being sad or a bit depressed is human and not a bad thing. OTOH its also very normal to feel elated. That new job, new love in ones life or realising your dream is all very legitimate reasons to be elated. So my guess is that Lithium would have the same side effects (they are purely physical and can be measured in the bloodstream) but would make the patient lose the ups and downs. Maybe it is noticed that Asian people especially from the far south eastern part are very level minded. Often they dont show emotions. This has become an ethnical trait but can be traced back to the effects of a salt like mineral in south far east Asian rivers. This mineral is the one that Lithium imitates. The noticable flattened out emotion of Chinese and other south east Asians that have emigrated to other parts pf the world and still have their offspring being rather "flat" emotionally is a passed down thing from one generation to another. The fact that Chinese dont often intermarry causes the offspring to act in this fashion as well. We all have a great effect on one another. Chinese people usually living in the same part of town ( i.e. Chinatown) is an explanation of peering among Chinese youngsters. This peering causes them to have the same traits in life. > I would like to add this piece of information > to my lithium site.  I am also personally interested > in extraneous circumstances which may distort > the diagnosis of bipolar.

Jock: Peer pressure and the tendancy of our youth today of being addicted to stimuli. Flashing lights, thumping music, electrical beats etc, etc causes our youth to be actually addicted to stimuli. When it is quiet and they are in a place of tranquility, the youth tend to get depressed. But will pick up when they get back to the "zap culture". Parents with careers that takes up time often produce children that have similar traits to the bi-polar. Some parents think that if their children dont do ballet, appreciate art, go to sports, actually they contribute to the vast amount of stimuli that the youth are allready under. Monday, ballet lessons, Tuesday piano, Wedensday football, Thursday swimming, Friday art lessons. Weekends are spent zapping the TV and practising all the other things they attend during the week. On top of this they have a normal curricullum of schooling. When on vacation, the kids dont know what to do with themselves. They are addicted to being busy. We adults have also contributed to a feeling of being not worthy if the children dont achieve enough. > A trustworthy test would be, if lithium works > on a subject, then he or she is bipolar – but this > too is not addressed in the literature I’ve found. > Thanks for reading; > Squiggles

How can one know if Lithium works if the individual has had no symptoms? Also there is the dynamic I have described of being busy all the time. Lithium would be of no use to such people. It would stop them from achieving and actualising themselves. That problem is a social problem and not a bi-polar one. It is best treated by having the most severe cases living in a sociotherapeutic environment for a while. Wordy Jingle Jangle Jingle Here comes Mr. Bingle With another message from Kris Kringle —

Response:

Question:

> groetjes en van hartelijk welkom > sorry…. i speak dutch and its a bit rusty… ;o))) > hi and welcome though.

Hi and thank you, you did fine! ) > i know efexor can make you drowsy when you’re first using it too – the > side effects wear off in a couple of weeks though. same with a lot of > other things – hang in there, once your body gets adjusted to them the > side effects can tend to disappear.

Yes, the side effects are gone, but when something "bad" happens, it’s back to "start", same pain in stomach, same feeling of no power… > i’m also waiting for the moment before deciding about mood stabilisers – > but thats cos my bipolar is mild, i have cyclothymia. if you’ve got > bipolar II, maybe thats why your doctor is waiting for a bit.. or if you > have a tendency more towards depression than mania?…

I don’t know which bipolar I have … yes, I have a tendency towards depression. *sighs* > all the best

Thank you, you too! Ragnar – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text –

Response:

>>groetjes en van hartelijk welkom >sorry…. i speak dutch and its a bit rusty… ;o))) >hi and welcome though. > Hi and thank you, you did fine! )

wat leuk! ;o))) well its a few years since i was speaking it… i used to live in Utrecht… but i can still remember a few things i guess…! > Yes, the side effects are gone, but when something "bad" happens, it’s back > to "start", same pain in stomach, same feeling of no power…

(((…. that doesnt sound like much fun…. i still get some side effects from the sertraline i take, they come and go. if its really disturbing you (which it sounds like it is (((… ) then its worth asking your doc about alternatives. i’d definatley ask about a mood stabiliser rather than the ones which are sedating you heavily, as lynda suggested – because with what i’m on, i can hardly feel the meds, which is cool… i feel more like "me", just balanced ))) > I don’t know which bipolar I have … yes, I have a tendency towards > depression. *sighs*

yes, me too… i take sertraline (aka Zoloft or Lustral for us UK peeps) for the depression… at the moment i’m doing something similiar to you and taking diazepam for hypomania… cos mine are only mild. i’ve had a lot of rapid cycles lately though, so its possible i might be thinking about a mood stabiliser – my p-doc is just content to observe for the moment. the different types of bipolar are characterised by how intense and how long the episodes last – bipolar I is the classic "manic-depressive" with longer manic and depressive episodes, bipolar II is less severe but more rapid, hypomania and depression. bipolar III (thats me) is cyclothymia – short cycles of hypomania and depression, sometimes only lasting a few hours or an afternoon. underlying that i have an overall tendency to depression as well. its probably worth you having a look at some of the info that LyndaNP posts – a lot of those pages describe the different types of bipolar very accurately. the main thing to remember is that we’re all individual… its not absolute classifications but rather more like points upon a line… >all the best > Thank you, you too! > Ragnar

no probs ))) take care m — ~~~~~>><:>~~~~ iriXx icq: 125860882 "i’m not here… this isn’t happening…"

Response:

greetings all. I tried to read all the messages, but I couldn’t do it, to restless and my attention went to so many things. I couldn’t concentrate. Doctor says I am bipolar. I take efexor 75 twice a day, and before I go to bed trazodane and seroquel. When I forget to take those pills, I can’t sleep at all. When I take them I feel so fuzzy next day, till late in the afternoon. Many times I think it’s best to end all this. It’s like I have no life. 6 pills a day, no joy, being fuzzy all day, etc. Is this my life for the rest of my life??? Let’s hope not, but it looks like it. I am home since March and I feel I am not progressing at all. Everything I do takes so much energy, and when I have to do something …. it looks like I have to climb a mountain. I sit here all day, staring at this screen. I force myself to be interested in things, but it won’t work. After awhile I go back to bed then, can’t sleep though, mind is going crazy when I am in bed. sorry to bother you, but I wrote this….I don’t know

Response:

> greetings all.

Hello Ragnar… > I tried to read all the messages, but I couldn’t do it, to restless and my > attention went to so many things. I couldn’t concentrate.

Well its not just you some of the messages are a bit loopy :>) > Doctor says I am bipolar. I take efexor 75 twice a day, and before I go to > bed trazodane and seroquel. When I forget to take those pills, I can’t sleep > at all. When I take them I feel so fuzzy next day, till late in the > afternoon. > Many times I think it’s best to end all this. It’s like I have no life. 6 > pills a day, no joy, being fuzzy all day, etc. Is this my life for the rest > of my life??? Let’s hope not, but it looks like it.

NO NO..it just seems like it at the moment… the way you are feeling… > I am home since March and I feel I am not progressing at all. Everything I > do takes so much energy, and when I have to do something …. it looks like > I have to climb a mountain. > I sit here all day, staring at this screen. I force myself to be interested > in things, but it won’t work. After awhile I go back to bed then, can’t > sleep though, mind is going crazy when I am in bed. > sorry to bother you, but I wrote this….I don’t know

yes you do know ….why and lots of us are exactly like that.. a bit of feedback can be a good thing.. bring the screen alive at least. hello again Bob – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text –

Response:

bobwhelan heeft geschreven> > >Well its not just you some of the messages are a bit loopy :>) >NO NO..it just seems like it at the moment… >the way you are feeling… >yes you do know ….why and lots of us are exactly like that.. >a bit of feedback can be a good thing.. >bring the screen alive at least. >hello again >Bob

Thank you Bob, your kind words are much appreciated. *smiles* Ragnar

Response:

> bobwhelan heeft geschreven> > >Well its not just you some of the messages are a bit loopy :>) >NO NO..it just seems like it at the moment… >the way you are feeling… >yes you do know ….why and lots of us are exactly like that.. >a bit of feedback can be a good thing.. >bring the screen alive at least. >hello again >Bob > Thank you Bob, your kind words are much appreciated. *smiles* > Ragnar

thats OK Ragnar… How are things in Belgium? Here in England we have has a burst of winter ..ice snow and such but its gone now.. While it was here we thought it would go on for ever but it didnt. Of course it will be back.. Carpem Diem.. grasp the time :>) – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text –

Response:

bobwhelan heeft geschreven in bericht: Hello Bob. >How are things in Belgium?

Rainy, chilly, but things are ok, I guess. Sabena, our national airliner is in big trouble, but it’s been that way a very looooong time. Can’t remember otherwise. The euro is coming fast. Oh boy, that will change alot here… we will need calculators and such. It’s very weird when I look at my bank account. I don’t know how much money I still have! Yesterday I installed ZoneAlarm, a firewall. It looks good (crosses my fingers). I have cable and I was advised to install an extra firewall. I truly wish these pills are out of my life…. maybe it will, some day. >Here in England we have has a burst of winter ..ice snow and such but its >gone now.. >While it was here we thought it would go on for ever but it didnt. >Of course it will be back..

Winter …. yukes!!!! The holidays are coming and really I hate that period. It’s so artificial … >Carpem Diem..

Carpe diem, trying to, very hard >grasp the time :>)

Ragnar )

Response:

  Welcome to the ng, > greetings all. > I tried to read all the messages, but I couldn’t do it, to restless and my > attention went to so many things. I couldn’t concentrate. > Doctor says I am bipolar. I take efexor 75 twice a day, and before I go to > bed trazodane and seroquel.

snipped…  May I ask why you are not taking a mood stabilizer for your bipolar Duisorder? The Seroquel and Trazodone can contribute to your lethargy. Peace, Lynda

Response:

>   Welcome to the ng,

Thank you, Lynda. >  May I ask why you are not taking a mood stabilizer for your bipolar > Duisorder?

The doctor says it’s not the time for that, yet. I’ll see him tomorrow. > The Seroquel and Trazodone can contribute to your lethargy.

Yes possible. I do hope this will end some day. > Peace, > Lynda

Peace and thank you, Lynda. Ragnar

Response:

> greetings all.

groetjes en van hartelijk welkom sorry…. i speak dutch and its a bit rusty… ;o))) hi and welcome though. i know efexor can make you drowsy when you’re first using it too – the side effects wear off in a couple of weeks though. same with a lot of other things – hang in there, once your body gets adjusted to them the side effects can tend to disappear. a lot of psychopharmacology is a case of the doctor listening to you, and how discomforting the side effects of your meds are – when i’ve been on things that have given nasty side effects, i’ve often been shifted onto something else – after all, my depression will only get worse if i’m being made miserable by my medication. it *is* possible to find drugs which will both make you feel better and have bearable side-effects ))). i’m also waiting for the moment before deciding about mood stabilisers – but thats cos my bipolar is mild, i have cyclothymia. if you’ve got bipolar II, maybe thats why your doctor is waiting for a bit.. or if you have a tendency more towards depression than mania?… all the best ‘care m — ~~~~~>><:>~~~~ iriXx icq: 125860882 "i’m not here… this isn’t happening…"

Response:

Question:

Lately there has been a bunch of crap being posted on here about the SSRIs, such as Prozac and Paxil. Keep in mind that most of this information being posted is being posted by those  with a dx of hardcore bipolar manic depression. This is  a fundamentally different psychiatric illness than unipolar major depression. Many of these bipolar manic depressives trash SSRIs left and right every chance they get, making these drugs outto be the devil’s drugs or something. However the specifics are being left out in many of these bipolar’s posts which denigrate the SSRIs. Anytime you read something, especially when claims are made aboutsomething, you should ask yourself "who is this person who wrote this?"  You need to find out who they are, what their personal biases and slants are. So their posts can be taken in context of that person’s experiences. First of all, its a well known general rule in psychiatry that hardcore manic depressives do best to stay away from SSRIs if at all possible…ESPECIALLY Prozac. Its well established in the psychiatric literature that SSRIs can easily activate mania or hypomania in individuals with bipolar manic diagnosis. Prozac in particular is extremely dangerous for those with bipolar dx. This is due to Prozac’s extremely long half life…it takes forever for all of the Prozac to be excreted outof your body if you discontinue it. Oftentimes up to five weeks…sometimes more if the Prozac dose was  a large dose. If the Prozac activates mania or psychosis in a bipolar person, this means that the person must wait weeks or months before the Prozac is out of their system thus prolonging mania/psychosis/hypomania…Prozac can very much complicate a bipolar person’s life. Its best avoided  if you have a hardcore bipolar dx. However the same goes for all the SSRIs, Paxil, Zoloft…whatever. These drugs can all activate mania in susceptible individuals (bipolar).  What irritates me is when these bipolar people come onto a NG mainly oriented for unipolar depression and trash the SSRIs left and right, making these drugs to  sound as if they are totally evil and worthless for nothing. That might be true if you are a manic depressive, but its hardly true if  your dx is unipolar major depression or if you have a anxiety disorder like panic attacks, OCD, etc. The preferred "core" meds used for the bipolar manic spectrum mainly revolve around mood stabilizers like lithium, depakote, Topomax, Tegretol, etc. As well as various anti-psychotic medications. These are the meat and potatoes meds for those diagnosed with bipolar. If an antidepressant is needed Wellbutrin is the preferred AD as it has a reputation for having a low incidence of activing mania or psychosis. Sometimes bipolar folks do go on SSRIs or Effexor, with varying results. Sometimes it results in activation of mania/hypomania and sometimes that results in being hospitalized. So these bipolar people hanging out on ASDM lately they need to be much more specific in their posts. Sure, SSRIs might have been the absolute worst drug for THEM, but  keep  in mind what their diagnosis was to begin with. I mean what the fuck do you expect when your dx is bipolar manic depression and you go on an SSRI and  you subsequently flip out and activate into mania/psychosis. Surprise surprise surprise…actually no surprise at all its predictable. For those of us who are unipolar and not bipolar, these terrible things that happen with SSRIs with bipolar folks simply do not happen…sorry but you people need to be more honest in your posts and be more honest with you who are…bipolar manic depressives and your needs and requirements DO  NOT apply to those of us with unipolar depression. Please be more specific in your posts from now on. Such as saying, "yeah, SSRIs activated severe mania in me but then again what do you expect cause Im a bipolar manic depressive." Eric Steroids caused my depression…prednisone should be used conservatively http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FactsAndFallaciesOfDepression MIBS (Minimally Invasive Brain Stimulation) http://www.musc.edu/psychiatry/fnrd/tms.htm

Response:

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> Lately there has been a bunch of crap being posted on here about the SSRIs, > such as Prozac and Paxil. Keep in mind that most of this information being > posted is being posted by those  with a dx of hardcore bipolar manic > depression. This is  a fundamentally different psychiatric illness than > unipolar major depression. Many of these bipolar manic depressives trash SSRIs > left and right every chance they get, making these drugs outto be the devil’s > drugs or something. However the specifics are being left out in many of these > bipolar’s posts which denigrate the SSRIs. > Anytime you read something, especially when claims are made aboutsomething, you > should ask yourself "who is this person who wrote this?"  You need to find out > who they are, what their personal biases and slants are. So their posts can be > taken in context of that person’s experiences. > First of all, its a well known general rule in psychiatry that hardcore manic > depressives do best to stay away from SSRIs if at all

possible…ESPECIALLY – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> Prozac. Its well established in the psychiatric literature that SSRIs can > easily activate mania or hypomania in individuals with bipolar manic diagnosis. > Prozac in particular is extremely dangerous for those with bipolar dx. This is > due to Prozac’s extremely long half life…it takes forever for all of the > Prozac to be excreted outof your body if you discontinue it. Oftentimes up to > five weeks…sometimes more if the Prozac dose was  a large dose. If the Prozac > activates mania or psychosis in a bipolar person, this means that the person > must wait weeks or months before the Prozac is out of their system thus > prolonging mania/psychosis/hypomania…Prozac can very much complicate a > bipolar person’s life. Its best avoided  if you have a hardcore bipolar dx. > However the same goes for all the SSRIs, Paxil, Zoloft…whatever. These drugs > can all activate mania in susceptible individuals (bipolar).  What irritates me > is when these bipolar people come onto a NG mainly oriented for unipolar > depression and trash the SSRIs left and right, making these drugs to sound as > if they are totally evil and worthless for nothing. That might be true if you > are a manic depressive, but its hardly true if  your dx is unipolar major > depression or if you have a anxiety disorder like panic attacks, OCD, etc. > The preferred "core" meds used for the bipolar manic spectrum mainly revolve > around mood stabilizers like lithium, depakote, Topomax, Tegretol, etc. As well > as various anti-psychotic medications. These are the meat and potatoes meds for > those diagnosed with bipolar. If an antidepressant is needed Wellbutrin is the > preferred AD as it has a reputation for having a low incidence of activing > mania or psychosis. Sometimes bipolar folks do go on SSRIs or Effexor, with > varying results. Sometimes it results in activation of mania/hypomania and > sometimes that results in being hospitalized. > So these bipolar people hanging out on ASDM lately they need to be much more > specific in their posts. Sure, SSRIs might have been the absolute worst drug > for THEM, but  keep  in mind what their diagnosis was to begin with. I mean > what the fuck do you expect when your dx is bipolar manic depression and you go > on an SSRI and  you subsequently flip out and activate into mania/psychosis. > Surprise surprise surprise…actually no surprise at all its predictable. > For those of us who are unipolar and not bipolar, these terrible things that > happen with SSRIs with bipolar folks simply do not happen…sorry but you > people need to be more honest in your posts and be more honest with you who > are…bipolar manic depressives and your needs and requirements DO  NOT apply > to those of us with unipolar depression. > Please be more specific in your posts from now on. Such as saying, "yeah, SSRIs > activated severe mania in me but then again what do you expect cause Im a > bipolar manic depressive."

Even you were 100% correct and SSRIs only activate homocidal mania in bipolars.. How do you explain the "normal" test subjects becoming suicidally depressed? regards, Bob ps Hope your feeling better and your changes help.. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> Eric > Steroids caused my depression…prednisone should be used conservatively > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FactsAndFallaciesOfDepression > MIBS (Minimally Invasive Brain Stimulation) > http://www.musc.edu/psychiatry/fnrd/tms.htm

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<< Even you were 100% correct and SSRIs only activate homocidal mania in bipolars.. Yes I am right about SSRIs activating mania in bipolar manic depressives. Its well established that SSRIs do this to the bipolar people. VERY WELL ESTABLISHED. Prozac is usually contraindicated in bipolar. Anyone who has a strong bipolar history and messes with SSRIs is asking for it. This is well known in psychiatry. The antidepressant of choice for bipolar is Wellbutrin, preferably the extended release form of it Wellbutrin SR. Bipolars mostly stick to mood stabilizers and anti-psychotics as their "meat and potatoes" drugs…antidepressants for bipolar is usually not the most important drug. >How do you explain the "normal" test subjects becoming suicidally depressed?

I dont know. I suspect that the extreme SSRI activation that SSRIs can cause early in starting an SSRI scares some patients, especially ones with prominent anxiety. Perhaps this activation with increased anxiety that SSRIs cause can make some depressives more depressed for a few weeks, I do agree that SSRIs oftentimes make you feel actually worse for a week or two when you first start taking them. This is probably where it comes from. I do agree the pharmaceutical companies…and doctors also….should do a better job of informing people who are going to take SSRIs of the early onset adjustment side effects of these meds, the "SSRI activation" especially as it can be quite scary for some who do not understand what is going on. The key to the SSRIs is to realize they make you feel shittier in the beginning but once the body adjusts after a few weeks you begin feeling much better. Eric regards, Bob ps Hope your feeling better and your changes help.. Steroids caused my depression…prednisone should be used conservatively http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FactsAndFallaciesOfDepression MIBS (Minimally Invasive Brain Stimulation) http://www.musc.edu/psychiatry/fnrd/tms.htm

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– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> << Even you were 100% correct and SSRIs only > activate homocidal mania in bipolars.. > Yes I am right about SSRIs activating mania in bipolar manic depressives. Its > well established that SSRIs do this to the bipolar people. VERY WELL > ESTABLISHED. Prozac is usually contraindicated in bipolar. Anyone who has a > strong bipolar history and messes with SSRIs is asking for it. This is well > known in psychiatry. > The antidepressant of choice for bipolar is Wellbutrin, preferably the extended > release form of it Wellbutrin SR. Bipolars mostly stick to mood stabilizers and > anti-psychotics as their "meat and potatoes" drugs…antidepressants for > bipolar is usually not the most important drug. >How do you explain the "normal" test subjects becoming suicidally depressed? > I dont know. I suspect that the extreme SSRI activation that SSRIs can cause > early in starting an SSRI scares some patients, especially ones with prominent > anxiety. Perhaps this activation with increased anxiety that SSRIs cause can > make some depressives more depressed for a few weeks, I do agree that SSRIs > oftentimes make you feel actually worse for a week or two when you first start > taking them. This is probably where it comes from. > I do agree the pharmaceutical companies…and doctors also….should do a > better job of informing people who are going to take SSRIs of the early onset > adjustment side effects of these meds, the "SSRI activation" especially as it > can be quite scary for some who do not understand what is going on. > The key to the SSRIs is to realize they make you feel shittier in the beginning > but once the body adjusts after a few weeks you begin feeling much better.

Well in that case just prescribing them and sending people away verges on criminal irresponsibity.. and there should be some prosecutions to go along with the SSRI horror stories. regards, Bob – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> Eric > regards, > Bob > ps Hope your feeling better and your changes help.. > Steroids caused my depression…prednisone should be used conservatively > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FactsAndFallaciesOfDepression > MIBS (Minimally Invasive Brain Stimulation) > http://www.musc.edu/psychiatry/fnrd/tms.htm

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>First of all, its a well known general rule in psychiatry that hardcore manic >depressives do best to stay away from SSRIs if at all possible…ESPECIALLY >Prozac.

I was treated with ssri’s for years, after being dx’ed bipolar, you need a ms……duh. Remove the **** from my address for email replies…. —–= Posted via Newsfeeds.Com, Uncensored Usenet News =—– http://www.newsfeeds.com – The #1 Newsgroup Service in the World! —–==  Over 80,000 Newsgroups – 16 Different Servers! =—–

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Question:

I have a history of becoming hypomanic in response to SSRIs – even at quite low dosage levels.  I tried both Luvox and Celexa and both created severe irritability within a few weeks. I am now taking Lacmictal and this works pretty well for me. I also have Fibromyalgia and have recently had a very bad flare-up which is pretty bad.   My doctor suggested I try SAMe for the fibromyalgia and I have heard that it sometimes really does help.  However, I am terrified of becoming hypomanic again. Does anyone know whether SAMe tends to produce hypomania in people who react that way to SSRIs? TIA Louise

Response:

Hi I have a history of becoming hypomanic in response to SSRIs – even at quite low dosage levels.  I tried both Luvox and Celexa and both created severe irritability within a few weeks. I am now taking Lacmictal and this works pretty well for me. I also have Fibromyalgia and have recently had a very bad flare-up which is pretty bad.   My doctor suggested I try SAMe for the fibromyalgia and I have heard that it sometimes really does help.  However, I am terrified of becoming hypomanic again. Does anyone know whether SAMe tends to produce hypomania in people who react that way to SSRIs? TIA Louise

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– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> SAMe does have mild antidepressant properties. And anything that has > antidepressant properties has potential to induce mania or hypomania in > susceptible individuals (bipolar people). So the probable answer to your > question is yes, SAMe probably does have some potential to induce hypomania. > However keep in mind that SAMe is a rather weak OTC supplement and packs > nowhere near the punch of the SSRIs. So its unlikely any hypomania you got > would be of any lasting significance. > You could take your docs advice and try SAMe. Its probably a good idea to try > it. Another thing I know they use for fibromyalgia is thyroid hormone > supplements, even in people who are not hypothyroid. I believe they use T3 > supplements (Cytomel) in some patients with Fibromyalgia. > Lamictal is a good drug, its an anticonvulsant that has a good side effect > profile and is very safe to take. It has some antidepressant properties in > itself. > Eric > Steroids caused my depression…prednisone should be used conservatively > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FactsAndFallaciesOfDepression > MIBS (Minimally Invasive Brain Stimulation) > http://www.musc.edu/psychiatry/fnrd/tms.htm

Thanks for the info.  I’m also going to ask my Rheumatologist about the Cytomel Louise

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Good answer, Eric.

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louise, there have been alot of positive results with a LOW CARB DIET for folks with fibromyalgia!       ALT.SUPPORT.DIET.LOW-CARB       http://people.we.mediaone.net/agross/asdlc/index.htm — read and post daily! rosie http://www.geocities.com/barrettetc/rosie.html

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> I have a history of becoming hypomanic in response to SSRIs – even at > quite low dosage levels.  I tried both Luvox and Celexa and both created > severe irritability within a few weeks. > I am now taking Lacmictal and this works pretty well for me. > I also have Fibromyalgia and have recently had a very bad flare-up which > is pretty bad. > My doctor suggested I try SAMe for the fibromyalgia and I have heard that > it sometimes really does help.  However, I am terrified of becoming > hypomanic again. > Does anyone know whether SAMe tends to produce hypomania in people who > react that way to SSRIs? > TIA > Louise

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