Question:
Hello cross-poster. Don’t you find it a strange coincidence that the correlation could be interpreted the other way around. That is, troubled kids would be more likely to be on medication in the first place? How does that sound? – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – >The recent wave of school-shooting incidents has some concerned >parents >demanding that the medical records of students taking psychotropic >drugs be >made public. >In the last 10 shooting incidents at schools, a total of 105 students, >teachers and administrators were killed or wounded. Beginning in March >1998 >with the shooting at Westside Middle School in Jonesboro, Ark., and >ending >with the March 22, 2001, shootings at Granite Hills High School in El >Cajon, >Calif., six of the 12 juvenile shooters are reported to have been on >prescribed mind-altering drugs. > San Diego Deputy Public Defender William Trainor announced last >week >that his client, 18-year-old Jason Hoffman, who is charged with the >shooting >of five students and teachers at Granite Hills High School, had been >prescribed the antidepressants Celexa and Effexor. Whether Trainor >intends to >use this medical information as part of his clients defense is >unclear, >though he said that the drugs [Hoffman] was prescribed may help >explain his >actions. He adds that research indicates that the drugs that were >prescribed >are extremely powerful antidepressants with the most dangerous side >effects. > According to Loren Mosher, professor of psychiatry at the >University of >California at San Diego, Celexa and Effexor are selective serotonin >reuptake >inhibitors [SSRIs] in a class with Prozac, Paxil and Luvox the same >drug >prescribed to Columbine shooter Eric Harris. > It appears Trainor believes there is a correlation between the >drugs >and the shootings. Although he could not provide specific information >about >his client, he tells Insight that this is a hot-button issue and there >are >many people who dont want to look at the connection. If you say those >drugs >may be involved, says Trainor, youll be labeled a kook. But with the >history >of these drugs there is a huge unpredictability factor. When someone >goes off >while on these drugs it should raise some eyebrows in the community. >Im >starting to wonder when the public has the right to this information. >What is >the balance of rights? Its his medical rec-ords versus the public >right to be >safe. Which one has the trump card? It is a legitimate question. > Although Trainor is not the only public official to consider the >possibility that widely prescribed mind-altering drugs may play a role >in >much-publicized school violence, he is among the few to make public >the issue >of medical records generally being protected and put off-limits. The >privacy >of medical records, including mental-health information, is protected >by law. >The information about the prescription-drug history of an accused >perpetrator >is only made public when the information is released by the family, >school >officials, friends and, sometimes, law-enforcement officers and >attorneys. > And, of course, such information seems to be of interest to the >public >only in the wave of concern after a violent event, making it difficult >even >to consider whether prescribed psychotropic drugs are a chronic cause >of >otherwise senseless violence. > In fact, so little information has been made public about these >mind-altering drugs and their connection to shootings and other school >violence that the U.S. Department of Justice (DOJ) isnt even looking >at the >possibility. When asked about a communitys right to know if an alleged >shooter has been prescribed a psychotropic drug, Reagan Dunn, a >spokesman for >the DOJ, tells Insight: There are two issues that youve raised >medical-record privacy and criminal records of juveniles. These >records are >sealed by statute in all states. It [the connection between >psychotropic >drugs and school shooters] isnt an issue were looking at there are >other >priorities were focusing on, such as school-resource officers [safety >officers] and other programs to reduce school violence. > But two other federal law-enforcement agencies, the FBI and the >U.S. Secret Service, appear to be concerned about the increasing >number of >school shootings and have invested a great deal of time and effort to >look >into the possible reasons for them. The FBI published a report last >year >called The School Shooter: A Threat Assessment Perspective. The >41-page >report was the result of a joint effort by the National Center for the >Analysis of Violent Crime (NCAVC) and teachers, school administrators >and >law-enforcement officers involved in investigating each of the school >shootings. They were assisted by experts in adolescent violence, >mental >health, suicidology and school dynamics. Eighteen school-shooting >cases were >reviewed for the report. > Although topics such as family relationships, school dynamics, >social >problems, personality traits and behavior, threat management in >schools and >the role of law enforcement are discussed, there is no mention in the >report >of increased prescription-drug use by juveniles. > Dewey Carroll of the Clinical and Forensic Psychology >Department at >the University of Virginia participated in a threat-assessment >conference >last year during which he was asked if, based on the correlation >between >psychotropic drugs and the school shooters, this information should be >made >public. Carroll argued that there was no correlation. Six out of 12 >[school >shooters] being on psychotropic drugs is not a correlation, it is an >observation, he said. > A correlation, explained Carroll, would be taking a sample of >children >on medication and those not on medication and then making the >comparison. >There are a lot of kids who take these medications who do not commit >violence. If you want to look at people that have risk factors, you >have to >do scientific studies. > Few professionals who are familiar with the data would argue >with that >criticism, but one may question how such a study can be conducted, as >suggested by Carroll, if the information about whether a student is on >prescribed mind-altering drugs is regarded as a state secret. And, >even when >such information is made available for study, it appears that little >use is >made of it. > Take, for instance, the Secret Service, which in collaboration >with the >U.S. Department of Education and the National Institute of Justice >last year >produced a report on how to prevent school violence. The Interim >Report on >the Prevention of Targeted Violence in Schools was made public in >October >2000, involving systematic analysis of investigative, judicial, >educational >and other files and interviews with 10 school shooters. > Although researchers reviewed primary-source materials such as >investigative, school, court and mental-health records and conducted >supplemental interviews with 10 of the attackers, no mention was made >in the >report about prescription medications of the kind that Insight has >collected. >Nor did the Secret Service respond to Insights questions about why >that issue >was not addressed at the conference or made part of the report. > Despite the fact that two federal law-enforcement agencies had >the >opportunity to view the personal files of many of the school shooters, >important medical data gleaned from those files apparently was >ignored. This >has caused many interested in this issue to wonder, like San Diegos >public >defender, when the public has the right to know such information. > Not surprisingly, while every professional interviewed for this >article >expressed concern about the privacy rights of children, there also was >concern about the use of mind-altering prescription drugs. Most are >beginning >to wonder at what point communities into which disturbed children are >sent >while on psychotropic drugs should be alerted to a potential problem. > JoAnne McDaniels, acting director for the Center for the >Prevention of >School Violence, an organization focusing on keeping schools safe and >secure, >tells Insight, There is concern on the part of some in the education >community that we are overmedicating our youngsters that it is easier >to >drug them into appropriate behavior. > It is important to recognize that the schools today have >children that >are being medicated in ways that children were not years ago. We >shouldnt be >too quick to isolate psychotropic drugs as a causal factor, but it is >an >important factor in trying to understand what is taking place. In a >general >sense, in a school population, parents should be able to see this >information, McDaniels says. If a parent moves to a community and >wants to >know the numbers of children who are on these drugs, making such >numbers >available would not necessarily violate confidentiality of children. I >think >as long as the information is not individualized it should be >information a >principal is comfortable providing. It may force the principal to >explain how >the school handles the entire violence issue and the use of medication >to >control behavior in the school. Its reasonable for a school to share >that >information and a parent to ask for it. Its part of the school >community and >part of the schools fabric. > The message, concludes McDaniels, is that we need to develop >youngsters without stimulants and other foreign substances. Too often >we are >opting for a way of treatment that is a lot easier to implement than >sitting >down and working out the problems. This is a public-health issue and >it seems >reasonable to look at it. > James E. Copple is vice president of the National Crime >Prevention >Council, a nonprofit organization that focuses on creating safer >communities >by addressing
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Response:
Hey maybe I misread your post, it was so long and it was hard to see your point but in my humble opinion, the two main reasons for school shootings are: 1) The wide availlability of guns in your fascist country 2) Bullies SSRI’s would make you MORE indifferent to bullying (I’m speaking from experience) and Ritalin would make you less susceptible to it since it’s the weird AD/HD kids that get picked on. (Not that they all are but I certainly was: innatentive, a spazz, completely dopey and not on drugs) I am sure had I been diagnosed then, my life would be much better now. Whatever. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – >The recent wave of school-shooting incidents has some concerned >parents >demanding that the medical records of students taking psychotropic >drugs be >made public. >In the last 10 shooting incidents at schools, a total of 105 students, >teachers and administrators were killed or wounded. Beginning in March >1998 >with the shooting at Westside Middle School in Jonesboro, Ark., and >ending >with the March 22, 2001, shootings at Granite Hills High School in El >Cajon, >Calif., six of the 12 juvenile shooters are reported to have been on >prescribed mind-altering drugs. > San Diego Deputy Public Defender William Trainor announced last >week >that his client, 18-year-old Jason Hoffman, who is charged with the >shooting >of five students and teachers at Granite Hills High School, had been >prescribed the antidepressants Celexa and Effexor. Whether Trainor >intends to >use this medical information as part of his clients defense is >unclear, >though he said that the drugs [Hoffman] was prescribed may help >explain his >actions. He adds that research indicates that the drugs that were >prescribed >are extremely powerful antidepressants with the most dangerous side >effects. > According to Loren Mosher, professor of psychiatry at the >University of >California at San Diego, Celexa and Effexor are selective serotonin >reuptake >inhibitors [SSRIs] in a class with Prozac, Paxil and Luvox the same >drug >prescribed to Columbine shooter Eric Harris. > It appears Trainor believes there is a correlation between the >drugs >and the shootings. Although he could not provide specific information >about >his client, he tells Insight that this is a hot-button issue and there >are >many people who dont want to look at the connection. If you say those >drugs >may be involved, says Trainor, youll be labeled a kook. But with the >history >of these drugs there is a huge unpredictability factor. When someone >goes off >while on these drugs it should raise some eyebrows in the community. >Im >starting to wonder when the public has the right to this information. >What is >the balance of rights? Its his medical rec-ords versus the public >right to be >safe. Which one has the trump card? It is a legitimate question. > Although Trainor is not the only public official to consider the >possibility that widely prescribed mind-altering drugs may play a role >in >much-publicized school violence, he is among the few to make public >the issue >of medical records generally being protected and put off-limits. The >privacy >of medical records, including mental-health information, is protected >by law. >The information about the prescription-drug history of an accused >perpetrator >is only made public when the information is released by the family, >school >officials, friends and, sometimes, law-enforcement officers and >attorneys. > And, of course, such information seems to be of interest to the >public >only in the wave of concern after a violent event, making it difficult >even >to consider whether prescribed psychotropic drugs are a chronic cause >of >otherwise senseless violence. > In fact, so little information has been made public about these >mind-altering drugs and their connection to shootings and other school >violence that the U.S. Department of Justice (DOJ) isnt even looking >at the >possibility. When asked about a communitys right to know if an alleged >shooter has been prescribed a psychotropic drug, Reagan Dunn, a >spokesman for >the DOJ, tells Insight: There are two issues that youve raised >medical-record privacy and criminal records of juveniles. These >records are >sealed by statute in all states. It [the connection between >psychotropic >drugs and school shooters] isnt an issue were looking at there are >other >priorities were focusing on, such as school-resource officers [safety >officers] and other programs to reduce school violence. > But two other federal law-enforcement agencies, the FBI and the >U.S. Secret Service, appear to be concerned about the increasing >number of >school shootings and have invested a great deal of time and effort to >look >into the possible reasons for them. The FBI published a report last >year >called The School Shooter: A Threat Assessment Perspective. The >41-page >report was the result of a joint effort by the National Center for the >Analysis of Violent Crime (NCAVC) and teachers, school administrators >and >law-enforcement officers involved in investigating each of the school >shootings. They were assisted by experts in adolescent violence, >mental >health, suicidology and school dynamics. Eighteen school-shooting >cases were >reviewed for the report. > Although topics such as family relationships, school dynamics, >social >problems, personality traits and behavior, threat management in >schools and >the role of law enforcement are discussed, there is no mention in the >report >of increased prescription-drug use by juveniles. > Dewey Carroll of the Clinical and Forensic Psychology >Department at >the University of Virginia participated in a threat-assessment >conference >last year during which he was asked if, based on the correlation >between >psychotropic drugs and the school shooters, this information should be >made >public. Carroll argued that there was no correlation. Six out of 12 >[school >shooters] being on psychotropic drugs is not a correlation, it is an >observation, he said. > A correlation, explained Carroll, would be taking a sample of >children >on medication and those not on medication and then making the >comparison. >There are a lot of kids who take these medications who do not commit >violence. If you want to look at people that have risk factors, you >have to >do scientific studies. > Few professionals who are familiar with the data would argue >with that >criticism, but one may question how such a study can be conducted, as >suggested by Carroll, if the information about whether a student is on >prescribed mind-altering drugs is regarded as a state secret. And, >even when >such information is made available for study, it appears that little >use is >made of it. > Take, for instance, the Secret Service, which in collaboration >with the >U.S. Department of Education and the National Institute of Justice >last year >produced a report on how to prevent school violence. The Interim >Report on >the Prevention of Targeted Violence in Schools was made public in >October >2000, involving systematic analysis of investigative, judicial, >educational >and other files and interviews with 10 school shooters. > Although researchers reviewed primary-source materials such as >investigative, school, court and mental-health records and conducted >supplemental interviews with 10 of the attackers, no mention was made >in the >report about prescription medications of the kind that Insight has >collected. >Nor did the Secret Service respond to Insights questions about why >that issue >was not addressed at the conference or made part of the report. > Despite the fact that two federal law-enforcement agencies had >the >opportunity to view the personal files of many of the school shooters, >important medical data gleaned from those files apparently was >ignored. This >has caused many interested in this issue to wonder, like San Diegos >public >defender, when the public has the right to know such information. > Not surprisingly, while every professional interviewed for this >article >expressed concern about the privacy rights of children, there also was >concern about the use of mind-altering prescription drugs. Most are >beginning >to wonder at what point communities into which disturbed children are >sent >while on psychotropic drugs should be alerted to a potential problem. > JoAnne McDaniels, acting director for the Center for the >Prevention of >School Violence, an organization focusing on keeping schools safe and >secure, >tells Insight, There is concern on the part of some in the education >community that we are overmedicating our youngsters that it is easier >to >drug them into appropriate behavior. > It is important to recognize that the schools today have >children that >are being medicated in ways that children were not years ago. We >shouldnt be >too quick to isolate psychotropic drugs as a causal factor, but it is >an >important factor in trying to understand what is taking place. In a >general >sense, in a school population, parents should be able to see this >information, McDaniels says. If a parent moves to a community and >wants to >know the numbers of children who are on these drugs, making such >numbers >available would not necessarily violate confidentiality of children. I >think >as long as the information is not individualized it should be >information a >principal is comfortable providing. It may force the principal to >explain how >the school handles the entire violence issue and the use of medication >to >control behavior in the school. Its reasonable for a school to share >that >information and a parent to ask for it. Its part of the school >community and >part of the schools fabric. > The message, concludes McDaniels, is that we need to develop >youngsters without stimulants and other foreign substances. Too often >we
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Response:
And wont you agree that these reactions are highly atypical and that your stupid doctor should have given you an anti-psychotic instead since you appeared to be psychotic at the time (no offence). You can’t blame inadequate medical services on drugs. I was on Zoloft for two years and short of anihilating my sex-drive (which really wasn’t such a big deal for me) the only effect it had was the one I was seeking (treating anxiety). I live in Canada, I don’t know about HMOs but I have heard horror stories about them. A lot of people take Paxil and benefit from it. While I was hospitalized (I WAS, after a SUICIDE attempt that had nothing to do with drugs, so here goes your "miss knows nothing" theory), I saw a severely depressed man who had tried to shoot himself in the head, turn into a relatively friendly and most definitely non-suicidal mild mannered and even chatty person on 40mg of Paxil. He told me it was working for him and it showed. Maybe I jump to conclusions but you do to.
– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text ->Hello cross-poster. Don’t you find it a strange coincidence that the >correlation could be interpreted the other way around. That is, troubled >kids would be more likely to be on medication in the first place? How does >that sound? >Well miss never been there but knows it all how does this sound? >I was very depressed (not homicidal) so I went to my GP and he >prescribed me Paxil. Six weeks later I started stalking and having >homicidal fantasies and was truly afraid that I was going to murder a >certain person. I went back to my GP told him I was not depressed but >was stalking someone and was afraid I was going to murder them. My GP >responded by doubling my Paxil and said it would take two weeks to >take effect. Two weeks later I started mutilating my arms with a >safety pin and I became so afraid that I was going to kill that I >begged for a referral to a pdoc. I was not give one of course since I >go to an HMO so instead I had myself checked into a hospital (that >really saved the HMO a lot of money). But in order to get checked in >with my crappy HMO’s blessing I first had to hide in the attic at the >HMO and call the consulting nurse on the phone in the attic and tell >her that I was afraid that I was losing my mind and that I was going >to follow my General Practitioner home. When I turned my problem into >my Doctor’s problem they suddenly took notice. >It was all caused by the Paxil. SSRI’s can be very dangerous. Sure I >had a problem that caused me to start taking a SSRI the problem was >depression but the problem that the SSRI gave me (homicidal fantasies >and self mutilation) were not the problems that I was taking the SSRI >for. > In the past I had taken tricyclics for years at a time with no such >problems.
Response:
I know Elavil is what I ODd on. But I tend to disagree on the psychosis stuff. I sounds like you had a mixed state which is even more severe than mania and severe depression. Anyway. I don’t want to argue with you about that. I just want you to admit some people do well on SSRI’s. I was not one of them. So far, Wellbutrin seems to be doing the trick but when my doctor increases my dose I get these annoying twitches and several days of insomnia. BTW Kitty and Catherine Hebert are the same person. I just have two browsers that are both fucked up in some way and since I was lazy when I was configuring the second one I just wrote kitty which is my dog’s name and now I can’t change it but remember kitty=Catherine. Not that you would care since you seem to think I’m evil.
– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text ->And wont you agree that these reactions are highly atypical and that your >stupid doctor should have given you an anti-psychotic instead since you >appeared to be psychotic at the time >No, I would not agree. These newspaper articles are pointing out that >violent reactions are not uncommon on SSRI’s and respected psychiatric >journals are now saying that SSRI’s cause people to self injure. >No I was not psychotic at the time. I do know what psychosis is and >that was not psychosis, that was mania. Yes people can become >psychotic when manic but I was not psychotic. >I was taken off the paxil and put on Depakote a mood stabilizer. > They are now wondering if patients are safer not taking tri-cyclics. >They like to prescribe SSRI’s over tri-cyclics because it is very easy >to overdose on tri cyclic but not on SSRI’s. But now that they are >discovering that SSRI’s can cause people to self injury they are >re-thinking the safety issue.
Response:
On top. Got any numbers on this? I’d like to see the rate of these reactions, not some /post hoc ergo propter hoc/ anecdote. :>And wont you agree that these reactions are highly atypical and that your :>stupid doctor should have given you an anti-psychotic instead since you :>appeared to be psychotic at the time : No, I would not agree. These newspaper articles are pointing out that : violent reactions are not uncommon on SSRI’s and respected psychiatric : journals are now saying that SSRI’s cause people to self injure. : No I was not psychotic at the time. I do know what psychosis is and : that was not psychosis, that was mania. Yes people can become : psychotic when manic but I was not psychotic. : I was taken off the paxil and put on Depakote a mood stabilizer. : They are now wondering if patients are safer not taking tri-cyclics. : They like to prescribe SSRI’s over tri-cyclics because it is very easy : to overdose on tri cyclic but not on SSRI’s. But now that they are : discovering that SSRI’s can cause people to self injury they are : re-thinking the safety issue. — Life: Chemistry, but with feeling! | PGP Key on request or FTP! Email responses to my Usenet articles will be posted at my discretion. Comoderator: sci.psychology.psychotherapy.moderated Atheist# 683 "We need to get away form the idea of curing and into the idea of healing the mind, body, and soul," he declared. "We need to be able to use, without feeling guilty, all the tools for treating patients, including biofeedback, meditation, guided imagery, hypnosis, relaxation training, homeopathic remedies, and prayer. We need to come back to the concept that spirituality is probably more important than prescription." Appropriately, Cox was followed by a massage therapist who, to prove the effectiveness of her treatment, showed an ultrasound picture of a developed fetus ’smiling’ after an in utero massage. – In Watters & Ofshe (1999) _Therapy’s Delusions_, p32 Cox is Richard Cox, Forest Institute of Professional Psychology, President of the Graduate School, at the 1997 APsychologicalA Convention.
Response:
– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text ->Hey maybe I misread your post, it was so long and it was hard to see your >point but in my humble opinion, the two main reasons for school shootings >are: >1) The wide availlability of guns in your fascist country > Bullshit. Guns are part of American freedom. Its part of our U.S. Constitution. > You know, that same document that gives American citizens those unique rights > of freedom of speech and freedom of the press that most of you overseas dont > really have? Well guns are an integral part of it…goes back to the > revolutionary war when every individual citizen was armed to defend themselves > against all enemies, foreign and domestic. > The real problem is unfortunately morality has declined in this country, > especially in urban or highly populated areas. This is due to multiple > factors in my personal opinion. Its a combination of things that has > contributed to school shootings. Availability of guns is NOT one of them. If > they didnt have guns, heck they would probably use homemade bombs or who knows > what. Guns dont kill people, people do. It takes a PERSON to pull the > trigger!!!! > Lack of childhood discipline is one of the main reasons in my opinion and this > lies with the parent’s responsibility. > Im for maintaining the current U.S. Constitution. That would mean maintaining > the average individual citizen’s right to own a firearm. I believe in > maintaining maximum freedoms and individual rights in the USA. Just as I think > mentally ill people need more enforcement of their rights and freedoms. > Banning guns in the USA amounts to nothing else but fascism and naziism. Its no > different than the old time practices of housing away the mentally ill and > doing things to them against their will. Its wrong, its against freedom and > individual rights. That is unAmerican. > Your attitude towards guns in America is based upon an emotionalistic > perspective, based heavily upon irrational fear, as well as the fact you are a > female uneducated about firearms. > Every person in the USA, male or female should have basic firearms training in > order to dispel these irrational fears that guns are bad and guns are "evil." > What a crock. >2) Bullies >SSRI’s would make you MORE indifferent to bullying (I’m speaking from >experience) and Ritalin would make you less susceptible to it since it’s the >weird AD/HD kids that get picked on. (Not that they all are but I certainly >was: innatentive, a spazz, completely dopey and not on drugs) I am sure had >I been diagnosed then, my life would be much better now. Whatever. > The purpose of SSRIs is not to give you artificially inflated self esteem so > you can fight off bullies. SSRIs are used to treat MEDICAL conditions such as > major depression, anxiety disorders, OCD, etc. Giving them out like candy to > every Tom Dick and Harry who complains of "low self esteem" is wrong! There are > other non drug methods of building self esteem in a more solid way that lasts > longterm without drugs. Certain kinds of talk therapy can help increase it. But > what can increase teenage self esteem the most is good old fashioned HARD WORK! > Thats right! Simple hard work increases self esteem in the teenager. When the > teenager works hard in school, in sports, etc. they develop self esteem. And > their teenage peers gradually begin to notice. This develops respect amongst > teens. The reason so many teens have low self esteem is due to the fact many of > them are extremely lazy and underachievers. They do poorly in school. Much of > this is due to lack of parental support and lack of parental discipline. Giving > them psych drugs is NOT the answer! Psych drugs need to be reserved for true > bonified psychiatric illnesses such as major depression, bipolar manic > depression, schizophrenia, etc. > Your views about the school shootings are simple minded and reveal a lack of > insight into basic American tenets of hard work, personal freedoms, individual > rights and responsibilities. Unfortunately the hard work part is not popular > here anymore like it used to be and this is in my opinion the main reason for > the school shootings. > Lack of hard work equals being a loser. Being a loser equals being susceptible > to bullying in school. The solution to the school shootings is NOT to ban guns, > it is to restore the American work ethic in our youth. When youth work hard on > a consistent basis, it is impossible for their self esteem to be all that low. > Eric > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FactsAndFallaciesOfDepression > FIDO…Fuck It Drive On
Response:
John Travolta, Kirsty Alley, Jenna Elfman, Tom Cruise and his former wife and probably that quack Peter Breggin. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text ->Where can I find a scientologist? > Working in tv, press, news, journalism, popular media. They’ve kind of > targeted those fields. >I keep hearing about these >scientologists but I have never met one. Do they really exist? > Go to the clambake and find out: > http://www.xenu.net/
Response:
– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> Dewey Carroll of the Clinical and Forensic Psychology >Department atthe University of Virginia participated in a threat-assessment >conference last year during which he was asked if, based on the correlation >between psychotropic drugs and the school shooters, this information should be >made public. Carroll argued that there was no correlation. Six out of 12 >[school shooters] being on psychotropic drugs is not a correlation, it is an >observation, he said. > Does that give you clue? > Although researchers reviewed primary-source materials such as >investigative, school, court and mental-health records and conducted >supplemental interviews with 10 of the attackers, no mention was made >in the report about prescription medications of the kind that Insight has >collected. > Does that give you another? >Nor did the Secret Service respond to Insights questions about why >that issue was not addressed at the conference or made part of the report. > Of course not, it’s not relevant. Check your clues. > That is of course the question, and with 6 million to 8 million >children already taking Ritalin, and unknown millions being prescribed >the much stronger mind-altering SSRIs, many are starting to ask it. > Why don’t you just leave the $cientologist news articles where you > found them? > No one with a clue wants to read any of them anyway. Well, other than > fraud investigators, that is.
YOU DELETED THE "HU-MAN" GROUPS FROM THIS, HAVEN’T YOU – BORG BRAIN? EAT YOUR DRUGZ! MAKE KIDS EAT DRUGZ! ASSHOLE! WAZZAMATTER? DON’T LIKE ANYONE "HURTING" THE SACRED DRUGZ? IF ANYONE SAYS ANYTHING "BAD" ABOUT DRUGZ THEY ARE "SCIENTOLOGISTS!!!!!" And so I say unto you, in the immortal words of Gene Ward Smith: "Fuck your ass with broken glass!" (Copyright 1995 by Gene Ward Smith)
Response:
>"Fuck your ass with broken glass!"
Oh, are you in flight with the other fool? I see you both share the same sorts of sexual fantasies. Have fun with your anuses, boys. they’re they only toys you’ll ever get to play with. Might find you marbles while you’re looking in there too.
Response:
If all kids carried guns to school, bad kids would be afraid to shoot anybody.
– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> The recent wave of school-shooting incidents has some concerned > parents > demanding that the medical records of students taking psychotropic > drugs be > made public. > In the last 10 shooting incidents at schools, a total of 105 students, > teachers and administrators were killed or wounded. Beginning in March > 1998 > with the shooting at Westside Middle School in Jonesboro, Ark., and > ending > with the March 22, 2001, shootings at Granite Hills High School in El > Cajon, > Calif., six of the 12 juvenile shooters are reported to have been on > prescribed mind-altering drugs. > San Diego Deputy Public Defender William Trainor announced last > week > that his client, 18-year-old Jason Hoffman, who is charged with the > shooting > of five students and teachers at Granite Hills High School, had been > prescribed the antidepressants Celexa and Effexor. Whether Trainor > intends to > use this medical information as part of his clients defense is > unclear, > though he said that the drugs [Hoffman] was prescribed may help > explain his > actions. He adds that research indicates that the drugs that were > prescribed > are extremely powerful antidepressants with the most dangerous side > effects. > According to Loren Mosher, professor of psychiatry at the > University of > California at San Diego, Celexa and Effexor are selective serotonin > reuptake > inhibitors [SSRIs] in a class with Prozac, Paxil and Luvox the same > drug > prescribed to Columbine shooter Eric Harris. > It appears Trainor believes there is a correlation between the > drugs > and the shootings. Although he could not provide specific information > about > his client, he tells Insight that this is a hot-button issue and there > are > many people who dont want to look at the connection. If you say those > drugs > may be involved, says Trainor, youll be labeled a kook. But with the > history > of these drugs there is a huge unpredictability factor. When someone > goes off > while on these drugs it should raise some eyebrows in the community. > Im > starting to wonder when the public has the right to this information. > What is > the balance of rights? Its his medical rec-ords versus the public > right to be > safe. Which one has the trump card? It is a legitimate question. > Although Trainor is not the only public official to consider the > possibility that widely prescribed mind-altering drugs may play a role > in > much-publicized school violence, he is among the few to make public > the issue > of medical records generally being protected and put off-limits. The > privacy > of medical records, including mental-health information, is protected > by law. > The information about the prescription-drug history of an accused > perpetrator > is only made public when the information is released by the family, > school > officials, friends and, sometimes, law-enforcement officers and > attorneys. > And, of course, such information seems to be of interest to the > public > only in the wave of concern after a violent event, making it difficult > even > to consider whether prescribed psychotropic drugs are a chronic cause > of > otherwise senseless violence. > In fact, so little information has been made public about these > mind-altering drugs and their connection to shootings and other school > violence that the U.S. Department of Justice (DOJ) isnt even looking > at the > possibility. When asked about a communitys right to know if an alleged > shooter has been prescribed a psychotropic drug, Reagan Dunn, a > spokesman for > the DOJ, tells Insight: There are two issues that youve raised > medical-record privacy and criminal records of juveniles. These > records are > sealed by statute in all states. It [the connection between > psychotropic > drugs and school shooters] isnt an issue were looking at there are > other > priorities were focusing on, such as school-resource officers [safety > officers] and other programs to reduce school violence. > But two other federal law-enforcement agencies, the FBI and the > U.S. Secret Service, appear to be concerned about the increasing > number of > school shootings and have invested a great deal of time and effort to > look > into the possible reasons for them. The FBI published a report last > year > called The School Shooter: A Threat Assessment Perspective. The > 41-page > report was the result of a joint effort by the National Center for the > Analysis of Violent Crime (NCAVC) and teachers, school administrators > and > law-enforcement officers involved in investigating each of the school > shootings. They were assisted by experts in adolescent violence, > mental > health, suicidology and school dynamics. Eighteen school-shooting > cases were > reviewed for the report. > Although topics such as family relationships, school dynamics, > social > problems, personality traits and behavior, threat management in > schools and > the role of law enforcement are discussed, there is no mention in the > report > of increased prescription-drug use by juveniles. > Dewey Carroll of the Clinical and Forensic Psychology > Department at > the University of Virginia participated in a threat-assessment > conference > last year during which he was asked if, based on the correlation > between > psychotropic drugs and the school shooters, this information should be > made > public. Carroll argued that there was no correlation. Six out of 12 > [school > shooters] being on psychotropic drugs is not a correlation, it is an > observation, he said. > A correlation, explained Carroll, would be taking a sample of > children > on medication and those not on medication and then making the > comparison. > There are a lot of kids who take these medications who do not commit > violence. If you want to look at people that have risk factors, you > have to > do scientific studies. > Few professionals who are familiar with the data would argue > with that > criticism, but one may question how such a study can be conducted, as > suggested by Carroll, if the information about whether a student is on > prescribed mind-altering drugs is regarded as a state secret. And, > even when > such information is made available for study, it appears that little > use is > made of it. > Take, for instance, the Secret Service, which in collaboration > with the > U.S. Department of Education and the National Institute of Justice > last year > produced a report on how to prevent school violence. The Interim > Report on > the Prevention of Targeted Violence in Schools was made public in > October > 2000, involving systematic analysis of investigative, judicial, > educational > and other files and interviews with 10 school shooters. > Although researchers reviewed primary-source materials such as > investigative, school, court and mental-health records and conducted > supplemental interviews with 10 of the attackers, no mention was made > in the > report about prescription medications of the kind that Insight has > collected. > Nor did the Secret Service respond to Insights questions about why > that issue > was not addressed at the conference or made part of the report. > Despite the fact that two federal law-enforcement agencies had > the > opportunity to view the personal files of many of the school shooters, > important medical data gleaned from those files apparently was > ignored. This > has caused many interested in this issue to wonder, like San Diegos > public > defender, when the public has the right to know such information. > Not surprisingly, while every professional interviewed for this > article > expressed concern about the privacy rights of children, there also was > concern about the use of mind-altering prescription drugs. Most are > beginning > to wonder at what point communities into which disturbed children are > sent > while on psychotropic drugs should be alerted to a potential problem. > JoAnne McDaniels, acting director for the Center for the > Prevention of > School Violence, an organization focusing on keeping schools safe and > secure, > tells Insight, There is concern on the part of some in the education > community that we are overmedicating our youngsters that it is easier > to > drug them into appropriate behavior. > It is important to recognize that the schools today have > children that > are being medicated in ways that children were not years ago. We > shouldnt be > too quick to isolate psychotropic drugs as a causal factor, but it is > an > important factor in trying to understand what is taking place. In a > general > sense, in a school population, parents should be able to see this > information, McDaniels says. If a parent moves to a community and > wants to > know the numbers of children who are on these drugs, making such > numbers > available would not necessarily violate confidentiality of children. I > think > as long as the information is not individualized it should be > information a > principal is comfortable providing. It may force the principal to > explain how > the school handles the entire violence issue and the use of medication > to > control behavior in the school. Its reasonable for a school to share > that > information and a parent to ask for it. Its part of the school > community and > part of the schools fabric. > The message, concludes McDaniels, is that we need to develop > youngsters without stimulants and other foreign substances. Too often > we are > opting for a way of treatment that is a lot easier to implement than > sitting > down and working out the problems. This is a public-health issue and > it seems > reasonable to look at it. > James E. Copple is vice president
… read more »
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: I want to know exactly why you say that The Washington Post is a : scientologist publication. Provide convincing evidence and I will : believe you. My recollection is it is a Mooney pub. At least they owned it a while ago. — Life: Chemistry, but with feeling! | PGP Key on request or FTP! Email responses to my Usenet articles will be posted at my discretion. Comoderator: sci.psychology.psychotherapy.moderated Atheist# 683 Men become civilized, not in proportion to their willingness to believe, but in proportion to their readiness to doubt. – H. L. Mencken
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Aren’t these kids and others who shoot up their workplace or whatever, when they find out they have medications, also find out that they weren’t taking them properly? That is – kid goes off meds for week, whatever, concocts plan to get even with everybody. Guy goes off meds, thinks lithium will kill him and decides to go kill other people instead. That makes more sense to me…. And I’ve read that about one of the fellows who "went postal" once – he decided by himself that his meds weren’t helping him, so he turned into a worse pyschotic… — Kathy
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>In sci.psychology.psychotherapy article >: I want to know exactly why you say that The Washington Post is a >: scientologist publication. Provide convincing evidence and I will >: believe you. >My recollection is it is a Mooney pub. At least they owned it a while >ago.
I believe you are thinking of the Washington Times, not the Post.
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:>In sci.psychology.psychotherapy article
:> :>: I want to know exactly why you say that The Washington Post is a :>: scientologist publication. Provide convincing evidence and I will :>: believe you. :> :>My recollection is it is a Mooney pub. At least they owned it a while :>ago. : I believe you are thinking of the Washington Times, not the Post. Could be. Could indeed be. — Life: Chemistry, but with feeling! | PGP Key on request or FTP! Email responses to my Usenet articles will be posted at my discretion. Comoderator: sci.psychology.psychotherapy.moderated Atheist# 683 The more corrupt the state, the more numerous the laws. - Tacitus, Roman historian, 50-120 A
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Men become civilized, not in proportion to their willingness to believe, but in proportion to their readiness to doubt. – H. L. Mencken That’s a pretty good quote, I must say. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text ->In sci.psychology.psychotherapy article >: I want to know exactly why you say that The Washington Post is a >: scientologist publication. Provide convincing evidence and I will >: believe you. >My recollection is it is a Mooney pub. At least they owned it a while >ago. >– >Life: Chemistry, but with feeling! | PGP Key on request or FTP! > Email responses to my Usenet articles will be posted at my discretion. >Comoderator: sci.psychology.psychotherapy.moderated Atheist# 683 >Men become civilized, not in proportion to their willingness >to believe, but in proportion to their readiness to doubt. > - H. L. Mencken
Response:
All fascist groups, including religious sects, are conservative. It’s a fact.
– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text ->In sci.psychology.psychotherapy article >:>In sci.psychology.psychotherapy article >:> >:>: I want to know exactly why you say that The Washington Post is a >:>: scientologist publication. Provide convincing evidence and I will >:>: believe you. >:> >:>My recollection is it is a Mooney pub. At least they owned it a while >:>ago. >: I believe you are thinking of the Washington Times, not the Post. >Could be. Could indeed be. >I was confused to, the original article was from insight magazine is >an offshoot of the Washington TIMES…. >So this is a mooney publication now? Well I guess that is a >refreshing change from being called a scientologist. This is a >conservative rag, are Mooneys conservative? I don’t know much about >mooneys they were a little before my time.
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– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text ->In sci.psychology.psychotherapy article >:>In sci.psychology.psychotherapy article >:> >:>: I want to know exactly why you say that The Washington Post is a >:>: scientologist publication. Provide convincing evidence and I will >:>: believe you. >:> >:>My recollection is it is a Mooney pub. At least they owned it a while >:>ago. >: I believe you are thinking of the Washington Times, not the Post. >Could be. Could indeed be. >I was confused to, the original article was from insight magazine is >an offshoot of the Washington TIMES…. >So this is a mooney publication now? Well I guess that is a >refreshing change from being called a scientologist. This is a >conservative rag, are Mooneys conservative? I don’t know much about >mooneys they were a little before my time.
http://www.consortiumnews.com/archive/moon4.html
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: Men become civilized, not in proportion to their willingness : to believe, but in proportion to their readiness to doubt. : – H. L. Mencken : That’s a pretty good quote, I must say. Thanks. All the quotes I’ve scarfed up over the years are available publicly at: ftp://ftp.calweb.com/users/j/jmprice/quotes/ Tin, my newsreader, chooses one randomly per post. At times I think tin has better insight in its selection than I do. — Life: Chemistry, but with feeling! | PGP Key on request or FTP! Email responses to my Usenet articles will be posted at my discretion. Comoderator: sci.psychology.psychotherapy.moderated Atheist# 683 An important scientific innovation rarely makes its way by gradually winning over and converting its opponents: it rarely happens that Saul becomes Paul. What does happen is that its opponents gradually die out and that the growing generation is familiarized with the idea from the beginning. - Max Planck
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I filtered you you troll, how can you be back? – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text ->Why don’t you just leave the $scientologist news articles where you >found them? >No one with a clue wants to read any of them anyway. Well, other than >fraud investigators, that is. > > Where can I find a scientologist? I keep hearing about these > scientologists but I have never met one. Do they really exist?
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Give me until tomorrow, this requires reflection but it does involve a large group of low IQ depressed people who need something to believe in and an oligarchy of rich and/or power-hungry megalomanic leader who will tell them what they want to hear and make lots of money doing it. The catholic church could qualify but they don’t hold their believers on a tight enough leash. Just let me think about it ok and thanks to you I wont sleep. How would you define it? – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text ->All fascist groups, including religious sects, are conservative. It’s a >fact. >Please define fascist.
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That’s an easy way out .Words evolve. I agree people throw the word fascist around a bit much these days I would say that in very general terms, when people use the word fascist TODAY (and not in 1935) they mean totalitarian-ish . You know, words depend on the context in which they are used. You knew perfectly what I meant. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text ->>>All fascist groups, including religious sects, are conservative. It’s a >>>fact. >>Please define fascist. >Give me until tomorrow, this requires reflection but it does involve a large >group of low IQ depressed people who need something to believe in and an >oligarchy of rich and/or power-hungry megalomanic leader who will tell them >what they want to hear and make lots of money doing it. The catholic church >could qualify but they don’t hold their believers on a tight enough leash. >Just let me think about it ok and thanks to you I wont sleep. How would you >define it? >Fascist: a word that is thrown around so much that it has totally lost >it’s original meaning but is generally considered to be a bad thing. >That’s how I define it. >According to The Random House Dictionary of the English Language >Unabridged Edition 1983 >Fascist n. 1.anyone who believes in or sympathizes with fascism. 2. a >member of a fascist movement or party, esp. in Italy. 3. anyone who is >dictatorial. adj. >(can you believe my dad told me I was wasting my money by buying a >dictionary when I was 19?)
Response:
looking at the wrong browser so all the people I had killfiled were coming back like the plague. I didn’t mean you if it’s the impression I gave you. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text ->I filtered you you troll, how can you be back? >> >Why don’t you just leave the $scientologist news articles where you >> >found them? >> >No one with a clue wants to read any of them anyway. Well, other than >> >fraud investigators, that is. >> >> Where can I find a scientologist? I keep hearing about these >> scientologists but I have never met one. Do they really exist? >Killfilters don’t work when you are a top poster
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I didn’t mean you, I don’t think you’re a troll BTW – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text ->I filtered you troll, how can you be back? >Sorry, I change my nick everyday because I have several cyberstalkers >from RL who followed me to usenet.
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ABUSING SCUMBAG "Gene Douglas" >If all kids carried guns to school, bad kids would be afraid to shoot >anybody.
WHAT A *STUPID* THING TO SAY… DOUGLAS… I HAVEN’T FORGOTTEN WHO AND WHAT YOU ARE, NOR YOUR OTHER UNITARIAN SHIT HEAD CHILD ABUSING SCUMBAG BUDDIES…. > I don’t know about that, kids are too good at controlling their > emotions. Neither are people with bipolar disorder after their > general practitioners overdose them on Paxil 
THE ABOVE SCUMBAG WOULD PROBABLY KNOW ABOUT THAT TOO… HAS A PRIVATE HOSPITAL ROOM WITH INTERENET ACCESS…. ABUSES KIDS AND PARENT’S OF ABUSED KIDS…. HOW HE GET’S OFF ON THEM SHAWNEE… EVIDENTLY, HIS PARENTS/FAMILY CAN AFFORD IT…
Response:
> Give me until tomorrow, this requires reflection but it does involve a large > group of low IQ depressed people who need something to believe in and an > oligarchy of rich and/or power-hungry megalomanic leader who will tell them > what they want to hear and make lots of money doing it. The catholic church > could qualify but they don’t hold their believers on a tight enough leash. > Just let me think about it ok and thanks to you I wont sleep. How would you > define it?
Simplest would be (ignoring an XYZ chart of various historical personages as "illustrations") would be how AUTHORITARIAN VS LIBERTARIAN. Role of government, economy, Child rearing… etc.. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text ->>All fascist groups, including religious sects, are conservative. It’s a >>fact. >Please define fascist.
Response:
– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text ->>>All fascist groups, including religious sects, are conservative. It’s a >>>fact. >>Please define fascist. >Give me until tomorrow, this requires reflection but it does involve a large >group of low IQ depressed people who need something to believe in and an >oligarchy of rich and/or power-hungry megalomanic leader who will tell them >what they want to hear and make lots of money doing it. The catholic church >could qualify but they don’t hold their believers on a tight enough leash. >Just let me think about it ok and thanks to you I wont sleep. How would you >define it? > Fascist: a word that is thrown around so much that it has totally lost > it’s original meaning but is generally considered to be a bad thing. > That’s how I define it. > According to The Random House Dictionary of the English Language > Unabridged Edition 1983 > Fascist n. 1.anyone who believes in or sympathizes with fascism. 2. a > member of a fascist movement or party, esp. in Italy. 3. anyone who is > dictatorial. adj. > (can you believe my dad told me I was wasting my money by buying a > dictionary when I was 19?)
Authoritarian fucker… – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text –
Response:
> All fascist groups, including religious sects, are conservative. It’s a > fact.
Tell that to Reform Jews and Unitarians…. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text ->>In sci.psychology.psychotherapy article >>:>In sci.psychology.psychotherapy article >>:> >>:>: I want to know exactly why you say that The Washington Post is a >>:>: scientologist publication. Provide convincing evidence and I will >>:>: believe you. >>:> >>:>My recollection is it is a Mooney pub. At least they owned it a while >>:>ago. >>: I believe you are thinking of the Washington Times, not the Post. >>Could be. Could indeed be. >I was confused to, the original article was from insight magazine is >an offshoot of the Washington TIMES…. >So this is a mooney publication now? Well I guess that is a >refreshing change from being called a scientologist. This is a >conservative rag, are Mooneys conservative? I don’t know much about >mooneys they were a little before my time.
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>http://www.ritalinfraud.com/ >now go stalk and harass them.
A bogus suit where its clone was tossed out of court on a motion to dismiss for failure to state a claim. IOW,the judge almost died laughing.
Response:
>>> All fascist groups, including religious sects, are conservative. It’s a >> fact. >Tell that to Reform Jews and Unitarians…. >uh oh, I got married in a Unitarian church, does that make me a >fascist?
Unitarians are cool.
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>> >http://www.ritalinfraud.com/ > >now go stalk and harass them. > A bogus suit where its clone was tossed out of court on a motion to > dismiss for failure to state a claim. IOW,the judge almost died > laughing. >Ritalin is speed and as a medical doctor, I refuse to turn innocent little >lovable (and seksy) children into speed addicts.
Sure….you are also quite clueless…
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– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text ->> >http://www.ritalinfraud.com/ >> >now go stalk and harass them. >> A bogus suit where its clone was tossed out of court on a motion to >> dismiss for failure to state a claim. IOW,the judge almost died >> laughing. >Ritalin is speed and as a medical doctor, I refuse to turn innocent little >lovable (and seksy) children into speed addicts. >Sure….you are also quite clueless…
Clueful enough to know that Ritalin is Bad Medicine and that you’ve knocked up and subsequently murdered Eve Brown and are now fucking and sucking your mentally retarded son Josh. — "You shall not lie with mankind as with womankind; it is an abomination" Leviticus 18:22 "And if a man lie with mankind, as with womankind, both of them have committed abomination: they shall be put to death" Leviticus 20:13 "And the men likewise gave up natural relations with women and were consumed with passion for one another, men committing shameless acts with men and receiving in their own persons the due penalty for their error." Romans 1:27 "Do you not know that the unrighteous will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived; neither the immoral, nor idolaters, not adulteres, nor HOMOSEXUALS, nor thieves, nor the greedy, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor robbers will inherit the kingdom of God." 1 Corinthians 6:9,10
Response:
LYING MENTAL CASE, PSYCH. DRUG PUSHER ON KIDS, Mark Probert
>http://www.ritalinfraud.com/ >now go stalk and harass them. > A bogus suit where its clone was tossed out of court on a motion to > dismiss for failure to state a claim. IOW,the judge almost died > laughing.
You have the transcript? OR you just flapping your mentally defective lying tounge? BTW, WAS THAT ALL YOU FOUND ON THAT SITE?? ANY SIDE EFFECTS FROM DRUGGING KIDS? EH MENTAL – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text –
Response:
>> All fascist groups, including religious sects, are conservative. It’s a >> fact. >Tell that to Reform Jews and Unitarians…. > uh oh, I got married in a Unitarian church, does that make me a > fascist?
Got it wrong Shawnie – the above, Reform Jews and Unitarians are most definitely not conservative nor fascist 
Besides, I got married in a Unitarian service …. to Ingrid Eve Runden, MD Unitarians, at least the ones I’ve communicated with by e-mail or in one of their groups and others in "real life", are Child abusive.
Response:
>http://www.ritalinfraud.com/ >now go stalk and harass them.
A bogus suit where its clone was tossed out of court on a motion to dismiss for failure to state a claim. IOW,the judge almost died laughing.
Response:
>>> All fascist groups, including religious sects, are conservative. It’s a >> fact. >Tell that to Reform Jews and Unitarians…. >uh oh, I got married in a Unitarian church, does that make me a >fascist?
Unitarians are cool.
Response:
>> >http://www.ritalinfraud.com/ > >now go stalk and harass them. > A bogus suit where its clone was tossed out of court on a motion to > dismiss for failure to state a claim. IOW,the judge almost died > laughing. >Ritalin is speed and as a medical doctor, I refuse to turn innocent little >lovable (and seksy) children into speed addicts.
Sure….you are also quite clueless…
Response:
– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text ->> >http://www.ritalinfraud.com/ >> >now go stalk and harass them. >> A bogus suit where its clone was tossed out of court on a motion to >> dismiss for failure to state a claim. IOW,the judge almost died >> laughing. >Ritalin is speed and as a medical doctor, I refuse to turn innocent little >lovable (and seksy) children into speed addicts. >Sure….you are also quite clueless…
Clueful enough to know that Ritalin is Bad Medicine and that you’ve knocked up and subsequently murdered Eve Brown and are now fucking and sucking your mentally retarded son Josh. — "You shall not lie with mankind as with womankind; it is an abomination" Leviticus 18:22 "And if a man lie with mankind, as with womankind, both of them have committed abomination: they shall be put to death" Leviticus 20:13 "And the men likewise gave up natural relations with women and were consumed with passion for one another, men committing shameless acts with men and receiving in their own persons the due penalty for their error." Romans 1:27 "Do you not know that the unrighteous will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived; neither the immoral, nor idolaters, not adulteres, nor HOMOSEXUALS, nor thieves, nor the greedy, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor robbers will inherit the kingdom of God." 1 Corinthians 6:9,10
Response:
– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – >: Men become civilized, not in proportion to their willingness >: to believe, but in proportion to their readiness to doubt. >: – H. L. Mencken >: That’s a pretty good quote, I must say. >Thanks. All the quotes I’ve scarfed up over the years are available >publicly at: >ftp://ftp.calweb.com/users/j/jmprice/quotes/ >Tin, my newsreader, chooses one randomly per post. At times I think tin >has better insight in its selection than I do. >– >Life: Chemistry, but with feeling! | PGP Key on request or FTP! > Email responses to my Usenet articles will be posted at my discretion. >Comoderator: sci.psychology.psychotherapy.moderated Atheist# 683 >An important scientific innovation rarely makes its way by gradually >winning over and converting its opponents: it rarely happens that Saul >becomes Paul. What does happen is that its opponents gradually die out >and that the growing generation is familiarized with the idea from the >beginning. > – Max Planck
It’s a bit ironic that both of these quotes appeared on the same page. Planck’s insinuates Mencken’s is sometimes incorrect. Hey, thanks for the ftp quote site! Zero1
Response:
> All fascist groups, including religious sects, are conservative. It’s a > fact.
Tell that to Reform Jews and Unitarians…. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text ->>In sci.psychology.psychotherapy article >>:>In sci.psychology.psychotherapy article >>:> >>:>: I want to know exactly why you say that The Washington Post is a >>:>: scientologist publication. Provide convincing evidence and I will >>:>: believe you. >>:> >>:>My recollection is it is a Mooney pub. At least they owned it a while >>:>ago. >>: I believe you are thinking of the Washington Times, not the Post. >>Could be. Could indeed be. >I was confused to, the original article was from insight magazine is >an offshoot of the Washington TIMES…. >So this is a mooney publication now? Well I guess that is a >refreshing change from being called a scientologist. This is a >conservative rag, are Mooneys conservative? I don’t know much about >mooneys they were a little before my time.
Response:
> Give me until tomorrow, this requires reflection but it does involve a large > group of low IQ depressed people who need something to believe in and an > oligarchy of rich and/or power-hungry megalomanic leader who will tell them > what they want to hear and make lots of money doing it. The catholic church > could qualify but they don’t hold their believers on a tight enough leash. > Just let me think about it ok and thanks to you I wont sleep. How would you > define it?
Simplest would be (ignoring an XYZ chart of various historical personages as "illustrations") would be how AUTHORITARIAN VS LIBERTARIAN. Role of government, economy, Child rearing… etc.. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text ->>All fascist groups, including religious sects, are conservative. It’s a >>fact. >Please define fascist.
Response:
looking at the wrong browser so all the people I had killfiled were coming back like the plague. I didn’t mean you if it’s the impression I gave you. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text ->I filtered you you troll, how can you be back? >> >Why don’t you just leave the $scientologist news articles where you >> >found them? >> >No one with a clue wants to read any of them anyway. Well, other than >> >fraud investigators, that is. >> >> Where can I find a scientologist? I keep hearing about these >> scientologists but I have never met one. Do they really exist? >Killfilters don’t work when you are a top poster
Response:
ABUSING SCUMBAG "Gene Douglas" >If all kids carried guns to school, bad kids would be afraid to shoot >anybody.
WHAT A *STUPID* THING TO SAY… DOUGLAS… I HAVEN’T FORGOTTEN WHO AND WHAT YOU ARE, NOR YOUR OTHER UNITARIAN SHIT HEAD CHILD ABUSING SCUMBAG BUDDIES…. > I don’t know about that, kids are too good at controlling their > emotions. Neither are people with bipolar disorder after their > general practitioners overdose them on Paxil
THE ABOVE SCUMBAG WOULD PROBABLY KNOW ABOUT THAT TOO… HAS A PRIVATE HOSPITAL ROOM WITH INTERENET ACCESS…. ABUSES KIDS AND PARENT’S OF ABUSED KIDS…. HOW HE GET’S OFF ON THEM SHAWNEE… EVIDENTLY, HIS PARENTS/FAMILY CAN AFFORD IT…
Response:
: Men become civilized, not in proportion to their willingness : to believe, but in proportion to their readiness to doubt. : – H. L. Mencken : That’s a pretty good quote, I must say. Thanks. All the quotes I’ve scarfed up over the years are available publicly at: ftp://ftp.calweb.com/users/j/jmprice/quotes/ Tin, my newsreader, chooses one randomly per post. At times I think tin has better insight in its selection than I do. — Life: Chemistry, but with feeling! | PGP Key on request or FTP! Email responses to my Usenet articles will be posted at my discretion. Comoderator: sci.psychology.psychotherapy.moderated Atheist# 683 An important scientific innovation rarely makes its way by gradually winning over and converting its opponents: it rarely happens that Saul becomes Paul. What does happen is that its opponents gradually die out and that the growing generation is familiarized with the idea from the beginning. - Max Planck
Response:
I filtered you you troll, how can you be back? – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text ->Why don’t you just leave the $scientologist news articles where you >found them? >No one with a clue wants to read any of them anyway. Well, other than >fraud investigators, that is. > > Where can I find a scientologist? I keep hearing about these > scientologists but I have never met one. Do they really exist?
Response:
Give me until tomorrow, this requires reflection but it does involve a large group of low IQ depressed people who need something to believe in and an oligarchy of rich and/or power-hungry megalomanic leader who will tell them what they want to hear and make lots of money doing it. The catholic church could qualify but they don’t hold their believers on a tight enough leash. Just let me think about it ok and thanks to you I wont sleep. How would you define it? – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text ->All fascist groups, including religious sects, are conservative. It’s a >fact. >Please define fascist.
Response:
Aren’t these kids and others who shoot up their workplace or whatever, when they find out they have medications, also find out that they weren’t taking them properly? That is – kid goes off meds for week, whatever, concocts plan to get even with everybody. Guy goes off meds, thinks lithium will kill him and decides to go kill other people instead. That makes more sense to me…. And I’ve read that about one of the fellows who "went postal" once – he decided by himself that his meds weren’t helping him, so he turned into a worse pyschotic… — Kathy
Response:
>In sci.psychology.psychotherapy article >: I want to know exactly why you say that The Washington Post is a >: scientologist publication. Provide convincing evidence and I will >: believe you. >My recollection is it is a Mooney pub. At least they owned it a while >ago.
I believe you are thinking of the Washington Times, not the Post.
Response:
:>In sci.psychology.psychotherapy article
:> :>: I want to know exactly why you say that The Washington Post is a :>: scientologist publication. Provide convincing evidence and I will :>: believe you. :> :>My recollection is it is a Mooney pub. At least they owned it a while :>ago. : I believe you are thinking of the Washington Times, not the Post. Could be. Could indeed be. — Life: Chemistry, but with feeling! | PGP Key on request or FTP! Email responses to my Usenet articles will be posted at my discretion. Comoderator: sci.psychology.psychotherapy.moderated Atheist# 683 The more corrupt the state, the more numerous the laws. - Tacitus, Roman historian, 50-120 A
Response:
– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text ->In sci.psychology.psychotherapy article >:>In sci.psychology.psychotherapy article >:> >:>: I want to know exactly why you say that The Washington Post is a >:>: scientologist publication. Provide convincing evidence and I will >:>: believe you. >:> >:>My recollection is it is a Mooney pub. At least they owned it a while >:>ago. >: I believe you are thinking of the Washington Times, not the Post. >Could be. Could indeed be. >I was confused to, the original article was from insight magazine is >an offshoot of the Washington TIMES…. >So this is a mooney publication now? Well I guess that is a >refreshing change from being called a scientologist. This is a >conservative rag, are Mooneys conservative? I don’t know much about >mooneys they were a little before my time.
http://www.consortiumnews.com/archive/moon4.html
Response:
All fascist groups, including religious sects, are conservative. It’s a fact.
– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text ->In sci.psychology.psychotherapy article >:>In sci.psychology.psychotherapy article >:> >:>: I want to know exactly why you say that The Washington Post is a >:>: scientologist publication. Provide convincing evidence and I will >:>: believe you. >:> >:>My recollection is it is a Mooney pub. At least they owned it a while >:>ago. >: I believe you are thinking of the Washington Times, not the Post. >Could be. Could indeed be. >I was confused to, the original article was from insight magazine is >an offshoot of the Washington TIMES…. >So this is a mooney publication now? Well I guess that is a >refreshing change from being called a scientologist. This is a >conservative rag, are Mooneys conservative? I don’t know much about >mooneys they were a little before my time.
Response:
Men become civilized, not in proportion to their willingness to believe, but in proportion to their readiness to doubt. – H. L. Mencken That’s a pretty good quote, I must say. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text ->In sci.psychology.psychotherapy article >: I want to know exactly why you say that The Washington Post is a >: scientologist publication. Provide convincing evidence and I will >: believe you. >My recollection is it is a Mooney pub. At least they owned it a while >ago. >– >Life: Chemistry, but with feeling! | PGP Key on request or FTP! > Email responses to my Usenet articles will be posted at my discretion. >Comoderator: sci.psychology.psychotherapy.moderated Atheist# 683 >Men become civilized, not in proportion to their willingness >to believe, but in proportion to their readiness to doubt. > - H. L. Mencken
Response:
: I want to know exactly why you say that The Washington Post is a : scientologist publication. Provide convincing evidence and I will : believe you. My recollection is it is a Mooney pub. At least they owned it a while ago. — Life: Chemistry, but with feeling! | PGP Key on request or FTP! Email responses to my Usenet articles will be posted at my discretion. Comoderator: sci.psychology.psychotherapy.moderated Atheist# 683 Men become civilized, not in proportion to their willingness to believe, but in proportion to their readiness to doubt. – H. L. Mencken
Response:
John Travolta, Kirsty Alley, Jenna Elfman, Tom Cruise and his former wife and probably that quack Peter Breggin. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text ->Where can I find a scientologist? > Working in tv, press, news, journalism, popular media. They’ve kind of > targeted those fields. >I keep hearing about these >scientologists but I have never met one. Do they really exist? > Go to the clambake and find out: > http://www.xenu.net/
Response:
– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> Dewey Carroll of the Clinical and Forensic Psychology >Department atthe University of Virginia participated in a threat-assessment >conference last year during which he was asked if, based on the correlation >between psychotropic drugs and the school shooters, this information should be >made public. Carroll argued that there was no correlation. Six out of 12 >[school shooters] being on psychotropic drugs is not a correlation, it is an >observation, he said. > Does that give you clue? > Although researchers reviewed primary-source materials such as >investigative, school, court and mental-health records and conducted >supplemental interviews with 10 of the attackers, no mention was made >in the report about prescription medications of the kind that Insight has >collected. > Does that give you another? >Nor did the Secret Service respond to Insights questions about why >that issue was not addressed at the conference or made part of the report. > Of course not, it’s not relevant. Check your clues. > That is of course the question, and with 6 million to 8 million >children already taking Ritalin, and unknown millions being prescribed >the much stronger mind-altering SSRIs, many are starting to ask it. > Why don’t you just leave the $cientologist news articles where you > found them? > No one with a clue wants to read any of them anyway. Well, other than > fraud investigators, that is.
YOU DELETED THE "HU-MAN" GROUPS FROM THIS, HAVEN’T YOU – BORG BRAIN? EAT YOUR DRUGZ! MAKE KIDS EAT DRUGZ! ASSHOLE! WAZZAMATTER? DON’T LIKE ANYONE "HURTING" THE SACRED DRUGZ? IF ANYONE SAYS ANYTHING "BAD" ABOUT DRUGZ THEY ARE "SCIENTOLOGISTS!!!!!" And so I say unto you, in the immortal words of Gene Ward Smith: "Fuck your ass with broken glass!" (Copyright 1995 by Gene Ward Smith)
Response:
>"Fuck your ass with broken glass!"
Oh, are you in flight with the other fool? I see you both share the same sorts of sexual fantasies. Have fun with your anuses, boys. they’re they only toys you’ll ever get to play with. Might find you marbles while you’re looking in there too.
Response:
If all kids carried guns to school, bad kids would be afraid to shoot anybody.
– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> The recent wave of school-shooting incidents has some concerned > parents > demanding that the medical records of students taking psychotropic > drugs be > made public. > In the last 10 shooting incidents at schools, a total of 105 students, > teachers and administrators were killed or wounded. Beginning in March > 1998 > with the shooting at Westside Middle School in Jonesboro, Ark., and > ending > with the March 22, 2001, shootings at Granite Hills High School in El > Cajon, > Calif., six of the 12 juvenile shooters are reported to have been on > prescribed mind-altering drugs. > San Diego Deputy Public Defender William Trainor announced last > week > that his client, 18-year-old Jason Hoffman, who is charged with the > shooting > of five students and teachers at Granite Hills High School, had been > prescribed the antidepressants Celexa and Effexor. Whether Trainor > intends to > use this medical information as part of his clients defense is > unclear, > though he said that the drugs [Hoffman] was prescribed may help > explain his > actions. He adds that research indicates that the drugs that were > prescribed > are extremely powerful antidepressants with the most dangerous side > effects. > According to Loren Mosher, professor of psychiatry at the > University of > California at San Diego, Celexa and Effexor are selective serotonin > reuptake > inhibitors [SSRIs] in a class with Prozac, Paxil and Luvox the same > drug > prescribed to Columbine shooter Eric Harris. > It appears Trainor believes there is a correlation between the > drugs > and the shootings. Although he could not provide specific information > about > his client, he tells Insight that this is a hot-button issue and there > are > many people who dont want to look at the connection. If you say those > drugs > may be involved, says Trainor, youll be labeled a kook. But with the > history > of these drugs there is a huge unpredictability factor. When someone > goes off > while on these drugs it should raise some eyebrows in the community. > Im > starting to wonder when the public has the right to this information. > What is > the balance of rights? Its his medical rec-ords versus the public > right to be > safe. Which one has the trump card? It is a legitimate question. > Although Trainor is not the only public official to consider the > possibility that widely prescribed mind-altering drugs may play a role > in > much-publicized school violence, he is among the few to make public > the issue > of medical records generally being protected and put off-limits. The > privacy > of medical records, including mental-health information, is protected > by law. > The information about the prescription-drug history of an accused > perpetrator > is only made public when the information is released by the family, > school > officials, friends and, sometimes, law-enforcement officers and > attorneys. > And, of course, such information seems to be of interest to the > public > only in the wave of concern after a violent event, making it difficult > even > to consider whether prescribed psychotropic drugs are a chronic cause > of > otherwise senseless violence. > In fact, so little information has been made public about these > mind-altering drugs and their connection to shootings and other school > violence that the U.S. Department of Justice (DOJ) isnt even looking > at the > possibility. When asked about a communitys right to know if an alleged > shooter has been prescribed a psychotropic drug, Reagan Dunn, a > spokesman for > the DOJ, tells Insight: There are two issues that youve raised > medical-record privacy and criminal records of juveniles. These > records are > sealed by statute in all states. It [the connection between > psychotropic > drugs and school shooters] isnt an issue were looking at there are > other > priorities were focusing on, such as school-resource officers [safety > officers] and other programs to reduce school violence. > But two other federal law-enforcement agencies, the FBI and the > U.S. Secret Service, appear to be concerned about the increasing > number of > school shootings and have invested a great deal of time and effort to > look > into the possible reasons for them. The FBI published a report last > year > called The School Shooter: A Threat Assessment Perspective. The > 41-page > report was the result of a joint effort by the National Center for the > Analysis of Violent Crime (NCAVC) and teachers, school administrators > and > law-enforcement officers involved in investigating each of the school > shootings. They were assisted by experts in adolescent violence, > mental > health, suicidology and school dynamics. Eighteen school-shooting > cases were > reviewed for the report. > Although topics such as family relationships, school dynamics, > social > problems, personality traits and behavior, threat management in > schools and > the role of law enforcement are discussed, there is no mention in the > report > of increased prescription-drug use by juveniles. > Dewey Carroll of the Clinical and Forensic Psychology > Department at > the University of Virginia participated in a threat-assessment > conference > last year during which he was asked if, based on the correlation > between > psychotropic drugs and the school shooters, this information should be > made > public. Carroll argued that there was no correlation. Six out of 12 > [school > shooters] being on psychotropic drugs is not a correlation, it is an > observation, he said. > A correlation, explained Carroll, would be taking a sample of > children > on medication and those not on medication and then making the > comparison. > There are a lot of kids who take these medications who do not commit > violence. If you want to look at people that have risk factors, you > have to > do scientific studies. > Few professionals who are familiar with the data would argue > with that > criticism, but one may question how such a study can be conducted, as > suggested by Carroll, if the information about whether a student is on > prescribed mind-altering drugs is regarded as a state secret. And, > even when > such information is made available for study, it appears that little > use is > made of it. > Take, for instance, the Secret Service, which in collaboration > with the > U.S. Department of Education and the National Institute of Justice > last year > produced a report on how to prevent school violence. The Interim > Report on > the Prevention of Targeted Violence in Schools was made public in > October > 2000, involving systematic analysis of investigative, judicial, > educational > and other files and interviews with 10 school shooters. > Although researchers reviewed primary-source materials such as > investigative, school, court and mental-health records and conducted > supplemental interviews with 10 of the attackers, no mention was made > in the > report about prescription medications of the kind that Insight has > collected. > Nor did the Secret Service respond to Insights questions about why > that issue > was not addressed at the conference or made part of the report. > Despite the fact that two federal law-enforcement agencies had > the > opportunity to view the personal files of many of the school shooters, > important medical data gleaned from those files apparently was > ignored. This > has caused many interested in this issue to wonder, like San Diegos > public > defender, when the public has the right to know such information. > Not surprisingly, while every professional interviewed for this > article > expressed concern about the privacy rights of children, there also was > concern about the use of mind-altering prescription drugs. Most are > beginning > to wonder at what point communities into which disturbed children are > sent > while on psychotropic drugs should be alerted to a potential problem. > JoAnne McDaniels, acting director for the Center for the > Prevention of > School Violence, an organization focusing on keeping schools safe and > secure, > tells Insight, There is concern on the part of some in the education > community that we are overmedicating our youngsters that it is easier > to > drug them into appropriate behavior. > It is important to recognize that the schools today have > children that > are being medicated in ways that children were not years ago. We > shouldnt be > too quick to isolate psychotropic drugs as a causal factor, but it is > an > important factor in trying to understand what is taking place. In a > general > sense, in a school population, parents should be able to see this > information, McDaniels says. If a parent moves to a community and > wants to > know the numbers of children who are on these drugs, making such > numbers > available would not necessarily violate confidentiality of children. I > think > as long as the information is not individualized it should be > information a > principal is comfortable providing. It may force the principal to > explain how > the school handles the entire violence issue and the use of medication > to > control behavior in the school. Its reasonable for a school to share > that > information and a parent to ask for it. Its part of the school > community and > part of the schools fabric. > The message, concludes McDaniels, is that we need to develop > youngsters without stimulants and other foreign substances. Too often > we are > opting for a way of treatment that is a lot easier to implement than > sitting > down and working out the problems. This is a public-health issue and > it seems > reasonable to look at it. > James E. Copple is vice president
… read more »
Response:
– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text ->Hey maybe I misread your post, it was so long and it was hard to see your >point but in my humble opinion, the two main reasons for school shootings >are: >1) The wide availlability of guns in your fascist country > Bullshit. Guns are part of American freedom. Its part of our U.S. Constitution. > You know, that same document that gives American citizens those unique rights > of freedom of speech and freedom of the press that most of you overseas dont > really have? Well guns are an integral part of it…goes back to the > revolutionary war when every individual citizen was armed to defend themselves > against all enemies, foreign and domestic. > The real problem is unfortunately morality has declined in this country, > especially in urban or highly populated areas. This is due to multiple > factors in my personal opinion. Its a combination of things that has > contributed to school shootings. Availability of guns is NOT one of them. If > they didnt have guns, heck they would probably use homemade bombs or who knows > what. Guns dont kill people, people do. It takes a PERSON to pull the > trigger!!!! > Lack of childhood discipline is one of the main reasons in my opinion and this > lies with the parent’s responsibility. > Im for maintaining the current U.S. Constitution. That would mean maintaining > the average individual citizen’s right to own a firearm. I believe in > maintaining maximum freedoms and individual rights in the USA. Just as I think > mentally ill people need more enforcement of their rights and freedoms. > Banning guns in the USA amounts to nothing else but fascism and naziism. Its no > different than the old time practices of housing away the mentally ill and > doing things to them against their will. Its wrong, its against freedom and > individual rights. That is unAmerican. > Your attitude towards guns in America is based upon an emotionalistic > perspective, based heavily upon irrational fear, as well as the fact you are a > female uneducated about firearms. > Every person in the USA, male or female should have basic firearms training in > order to dispel these irrational fears that guns are bad and guns are "evil." > What a crock. >2) Bullies >SSRI’s would make you MORE indifferent to bullying (I’m speaking from >experience) and Ritalin would make you less susceptible to it since it’s the >weird AD/HD kids that get picked on. (Not that they all are but I certainly >was: innatentive, a spazz, completely dopey and not on drugs) I am sure had >I been diagnosed then, my life would be much better now. Whatever. > The purpose of SSRIs is not to give you artificially inflated self esteem so > you can fight off bullies. SSRIs are used to treat MEDICAL conditions such as > major depression, anxiety disorders, OCD, etc. Giving them out like candy to > every Tom Dick and Harry who complains of "low self esteem" is wrong! There are > other non drug methods of building self esteem in a more solid way that lasts > longterm without drugs. Certain kinds of talk therapy can help increase it. But > what can increase teenage self esteem the most is good old fashioned HARD WORK! > Thats right! Simple hard work increases self esteem in the teenager. When the > teenager works hard in school, in sports, etc. they develop self esteem. And > their teenage peers gradually begin to notice. This develops respect amongst > teens. The reason so many teens have low self esteem is due to the fact many of > them are extremely lazy and underachievers. They do poorly in school. Much of > this is due to lack of parental support and lack of parental discipline. Giving > them psych drugs is NOT the answer! Psych drugs need to be reserved for true > bonified psychiatric illnesses such as major depression, bipolar manic > depression, schizophrenia, etc. > Your views about the school shootings are simple minded and reveal a lack of > insight into basic American tenets of hard work, personal freedoms, individual > rights and responsibilities. Unfortunately the hard work part is not popular > here anymore like it used to be and this is in my opinion the main reason for > the school shootings. > Lack of hard work equals being a loser. Being a loser equals being susceptible > to bullying in school. The solution to the school shootings is NOT to ban guns, > it is to restore the American work ethic in our youth. When youth work hard on > a consistent basis, it is impossible for their self esteem to be all that low. > Eric > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FactsAndFallaciesOfDepression > FIDO…Fuck It Drive On
Response:
Hey maybe I misread your post, it was so long and it was hard to see your point but in my humble opinion, the two main reasons for school shootings are: 1) The wide availlability of guns in your fascist country 2) Bullies SSRI’s would make you MORE indifferent to bullying (I’m speaking from experience) and Ritalin would make you less susceptible to it since it’s the weird AD/HD kids that get picked on. (Not that they all are but I certainly was: innatentive, a spazz, completely dopey and not on drugs) I am sure had I been diagnosed then, my life would be much better now. Whatever. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – >The recent wave of school-shooting incidents has some concerned >parents >demanding that the medical records of students taking psychotropic >drugs be >made public. >In the last 10 shooting incidents at schools, a total of 105 students, >teachers and administrators were killed or wounded. Beginning in March >1998 >with the shooting at Westside Middle School in Jonesboro, Ark., and >ending >with the March 22, 2001, shootings at Granite Hills High School in El >Cajon, >Calif., six of the 12 juvenile shooters are reported to have been on >prescribed mind-altering drugs. > San Diego Deputy Public Defender William Trainor announced last >week >that his client, 18-year-old Jason Hoffman, who is charged with the >shooting >of five students and teachers at Granite Hills High School, had been >prescribed the antidepressants Celexa and Effexor. Whether Trainor >intends to >use this medical information as part of his clients defense is >unclear, >though he said that the drugs [Hoffman] was prescribed may help >explain his >actions. He adds that research indicates that the drugs that were >prescribed >are extremely powerful antidepressants with the most dangerous side >effects. > According to Loren Mosher, professor of psychiatry at the >University of >California at San Diego, Celexa and Effexor are selective serotonin >reuptake >inhibitors [SSRIs] in a class with Prozac, Paxil and Luvox the same >drug >prescribed to Columbine shooter Eric Harris. > It appears Trainor believes there is a correlation between the >drugs >and the shootings. Although he could not provide specific information >about >his client, he tells Insight that this is a hot-button issue and there >are >many people who dont want to look at the connection. If you say those >drugs >may be involved, says Trainor, youll be labeled a kook. But with the >history >of these drugs there is a huge unpredictability factor. When someone >goes off >while on these drugs it should raise some eyebrows in the community. >Im >starting to wonder when the public has the right to this information. >What is >the balance of rights? Its his medical rec-ords versus the public >right to be >safe. Which one has the trump card? It is a legitimate question. > Although Trainor is not the only public official to consider the >possibility that widely prescribed mind-altering drugs may play a role >in >much-publicized school violence, he is among the few to make public >the issue >of medical records generally being protected and put off-limits. The >privacy >of medical records, including mental-health information, is protected >by law. >The information about the prescription-drug history of an accused >perpetrator >is only made public when the information is released by the family, >school >officials, friends and, sometimes, law-enforcement officers and >attorneys. > And, of course, such information seems to be of interest to the >public >only in the wave of concern after a violent event, making it difficult >even >to consider whether prescribed psychotropic drugs are a chronic cause >of >otherwise senseless violence. > In fact, so little information has been made public about these >mind-altering drugs and their connection to shootings and other school >violence that the U.S. Department of Justice (DOJ) isnt even looking >at the >possibility. When asked about a communitys right to know if an alleged >shooter has been prescribed a psychotropic drug, Reagan Dunn, a >spokesman for >the DOJ, tells Insight: There are two issues that youve raised >medical-record privacy and criminal records of juveniles. These >records are >sealed by statute in all states. It [the connection between >psychotropic >drugs and school shooters] isnt an issue were looking at there are >other >priorities were focusing on, such as school-resource officers [safety >officers] and other programs to reduce school violence. > But two other federal law-enforcement agencies, the FBI and the >U.S. Secret Service, appear to be concerned about the increasing >number of >school shootings and have invested a great deal of time and effort to >look >into the possible reasons for them. The FBI published a report last >year >called The School Shooter: A Threat Assessment Perspective. The >41-page >report was the result of a joint effort by the National Center for the >Analysis of Violent Crime (NCAVC) and teachers, school administrators >and >law-enforcement officers involved in investigating each of the school >shootings. They were assisted by experts in adolescent violence, >mental >health, suicidology and school dynamics. Eighteen school-shooting >cases were >reviewed for the report. > Although topics such as family relationships, school dynamics, >social >problems, personality traits and behavior, threat management in >schools and >the role of law enforcement are discussed, there is no mention in the >report >of increased prescription-drug use by juveniles. > Dewey Carroll of the Clinical and Forensic Psychology >Department at >the University of Virginia participated in a threat-assessment >conference >last year during which he was asked if, based on the correlation >between >psychotropic drugs and the school shooters, this information should be >made >public. Carroll argued that there was no correlation. Six out of 12 >[school >shooters] being on psychotropic drugs is not a correlation, it is an >observation, he said. > A correlation, explained Carroll, would be taking a sample of >children >on medication and those not on medication and then making the >comparison. >There are a lot of kids who take these medications who do not commit >violence. If you want to look at people that have risk factors, you >have to >do scientific studies. > Few professionals who are familiar with the data would argue >with that >criticism, but one may question how such a study can be conducted, as >suggested by Carroll, if the information about whether a student is on >prescribed mind-altering drugs is regarded as a state secret. And, >even when >such information is made available for study, it appears that little >use is >made of it. > Take, for instance, the Secret Service, which in collaboration >with the >U.S. Department of Education and the National Institute of Justice >last year >produced a report on how to prevent school violence. The Interim >Report on >the Prevention of Targeted Violence in Schools was made public in >October >2000, involving systematic analysis of investigative, judicial, >educational >and other files and interviews with 10 school shooters. > Although researchers reviewed primary-source materials such as >investigative, school, court and mental-health records and conducted >supplemental interviews with 10 of the attackers, no mention was made >in the >report about prescription medications of the kind that Insight has >collected. >Nor did the Secret Service respond to Insights questions about why >that issue >was not addressed at the conference or made part of the report. > Despite the fact that two federal law-enforcement agencies had >the >opportunity to view the personal files of many of the school shooters, >important medical data gleaned from those files apparently was >ignored. This >has caused many interested in this issue to wonder, like San Diegos >public >defender, when the public has the right to know such information. > Not surprisingly, while every professional interviewed for this >article >expressed concern about the privacy rights of children, there also was >concern about the use of mind-altering prescription drugs. Most are >beginning >to wonder at what point communities into which disturbed children are >sent >while on psychotropic drugs should be alerted to a potential problem. > JoAnne McDaniels, acting director for the Center for the >Prevention of >School Violence, an organization focusing on keeping schools safe and >secure, >tells Insight, There is concern on the part of some in the education >community that we are overmedicating our youngsters that it is easier >to >drug them into appropriate behavior. > It is important to recognize that the schools today have >children that >are being medicated in ways that children were not years ago. We >shouldnt be >too quick to isolate psychotropic drugs as a causal factor, but it is >an >important factor in trying to understand what is taking place. In a >general >sense, in a school population, parents should be able to see this >information, McDaniels says. If a parent moves to a community and >wants to >know the numbers of children who are on these drugs, making such >numbers >available would not necessarily violate confidentiality of children. I >think >as long as the information is not individualized it should be >information a >principal is comfortable providing. It may force the principal to >explain how >the school handles the entire violence issue and the use of medication >to >control behavior in the school. Its reasonable for a school to share >that >information and a parent to ask for it. Its part of the school >community and >part of the schools fabric. > The message, concludes McDaniels, is that we need to develop >youngsters without stimulants and other foreign substances. Too often >we
… read more »
Response:
Hello cross-poster. Don’t you find it a strange coincidence that the correlation could be interpreted the other way around. That is, troubled kids would be more likely to be on medication in the first place? How does that sound? – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – >The recent wave of school-shooting incidents has some concerned >parents >demanding that the medical records of students taking psychotropic >drugs be >made public. >In the last 10 shooting incidents at schools, a total of 105 students, >teachers and administrators were killed or wounded. Beginning in March >1998 >with the shooting at Westside Middle School in Jonesboro, Ark., and >ending >with the March 22, 2001, shootings at Granite Hills High School in El >Cajon, >Calif., six of the 12 juvenile shooters are reported to have been on >prescribed mind-altering drugs. > San Diego Deputy Public Defender William Trainor announced last >week >that his client, 18-year-old Jason Hoffman, who is charged with the >shooting >of five students and teachers at Granite Hills High School, had been >prescribed the antidepressants Celexa and Effexor. Whether Trainor >intends to >use this medical information as part of his clients defense is >unclear, >though he said that the drugs [Hoffman] was prescribed may help >explain his >actions. He adds that research indicates that the drugs that were >prescribed >are extremely powerful antidepressants with the most dangerous side >effects. > According to Loren Mosher, professor of psychiatry at the >University of >California at San Diego, Celexa and Effexor are selective serotonin >reuptake >inhibitors [SSRIs] in a class with Prozac, Paxil and Luvox the same >drug >prescribed to Columbine shooter Eric Harris. > It appears Trainor believes there is a correlation between the >drugs >and the shootings. Although he could not provide specific information >about >his client, he tells Insight that this is a hot-button issue and there >are >many people who dont want to look at the connection. If you say those >drugs >may be involved, says Trainor, youll be labeled a kook. But with the >history >of these drugs there is a huge unpredictability factor. When someone >goes off >while on these drugs it should raise some eyebrows in the community. >Im >starting to wonder when the public has the right to this information. >What is >the balance of rights? Its his medical rec-ords versus the public >right to be >safe. Which one has the trump card? It is a legitimate question. > Although Trainor is not the only public official to consider the >possibility that widely prescribed mind-altering drugs may play a role >in >much-publicized school violence, he is among the few to make public >the issue >of medical records generally being protected and put off-limits. The >privacy >of medical records, including mental-health information, is protected >by law. >The information about the prescription-drug history of an accused >perpetrator >is only made public when the information is released by the family, >school >officials, friends and, sometimes, law-enforcement officers and >attorneys. > And, of course, such information seems to be of interest to the >public >only in the wave of concern after a violent event, making it difficult >even >to consider whether prescribed psychotropic drugs are a chronic cause >of >otherwise senseless violence. > In fact, so little information has been made public about these >mind-altering drugs and their connection to shootings and other school >violence that the U.S. Department of Justice (DOJ) isnt even looking >at the >possibility. When asked about a communitys right to know if an alleged >shooter has been prescribed a psychotropic drug, Reagan Dunn, a >spokesman for >the DOJ, tells Insight: There are two issues that youve raised >medical-record privacy and criminal records of juveniles. These >records are >sealed by statute in all states. It [the connection between >psychotropic >drugs and school shooters] isnt an issue were looking at there are >other >priorities were focusing on, such as school-resource officers [safety >officers] and other programs to reduce school violence. > But two other federal law-enforcement agencies, the FBI and the >U.S. Secret Service, appear to be concerned about the increasing >number of >school shootings and have invested a great deal of time and effort to >look >into the possible reasons for them. The FBI published a report last >year >called The School Shooter: A Threat Assessment Perspective. The >41-page >report was the result of a joint effort by the National Center for the >Analysis of Violent Crime (NCAVC) and teachers, school administrators >and >law-enforcement officers involved in investigating each of the school >shootings. They were assisted by experts in adolescent violence, >mental >health, suicidology and school dynamics. Eighteen school-shooting >cases were >reviewed for the report. > Although topics such as family relationships, school dynamics, >social >problems, personality traits and behavior, threat management in >schools and >the role of law enforcement are discussed, there is no mention in the >report >of increased prescription-drug use by juveniles. > Dewey Carroll of the Clinical and Forensic Psychology >Department at >the University of Virginia participated in a threat-assessment >conference >last year during which he was asked if, based on the correlation >between >psychotropic drugs and the school shooters, this information should be >made >public. Carroll argued that there was no correlation. Six out of 12 >[school >shooters] being on psychotropic drugs is not a correlation, it is an >observation, he said. > A correlation, explained Carroll, would be taking a sample of >children >on medication and those not on medication and then making the >comparison. >There are a lot of kids who take these medications who do not commit >violence. If you want to look at people that have risk factors, you >have to >do scientific studies. > Few professionals who are familiar with the data would argue >with that >criticism, but one may question how such a study can be conducted, as >suggested by Carroll, if the information about whether a student is on >prescribed mind-altering drugs is regarded as a state secret. And, >even when >such information is made available for study, it appears that little >use is >made of it. > Take, for instance, the Secret Service, which in collaboration >with the >U.S. Department of Education and the National Institute of Justice >last year >produced a report on how to prevent school violence. The Interim >Report on >the Prevention of Targeted Violence in Schools was made public in >October >2000, involving systematic analysis of investigative, judicial, >educational >and other files and interviews with 10 school shooters. > Although researchers reviewed primary-source materials such as >investigative, school, court and mental-health records and conducted >supplemental interviews with 10 of the attackers, no mention was made >in the >report about prescription medications of the kind that Insight has >collected. >Nor did the Secret Service respond to Insights questions about why >that issue >was not addressed at the conference or made part of the report. > Despite the fact that two federal law-enforcement agencies had >the >opportunity to view the personal files of many of the school shooters, >important medical data gleaned from those files apparently was >ignored. This >has caused many interested in this issue to wonder, like San Diegos >public >defender, when the public has the right to know such information. > Not surprisingly, while every professional interviewed for this >article >expressed concern about the privacy rights of children, there also was >concern about the use of mind-altering prescription drugs. Most are >beginning >to wonder at what point communities into which disturbed children are >sent >while on psychotropic drugs should be alerted to a potential problem. > JoAnne McDaniels, acting director for the Center for the >Prevention of >School Violence, an organization focusing on keeping schools safe and >secure, >tells Insight, There is concern on the part of some in the education >community that we are overmedicating our youngsters that it is easier >to >drug them into appropriate behavior. > It is important to recognize that the schools today have >children that >are being medicated in ways that children were not years ago. We >shouldnt be >too quick to isolate psychotropic drugs as a causal factor, but it is >an >important factor in trying to understand what is taking place. In a >general >sense, in a school population, parents should be able to see this >information, McDaniels says. If a parent moves to a community and >wants to >know the numbers of children who are on these drugs, making such >numbers >available would not necessarily violate confidentiality of children. I >think >as long as the information is not individualized it should be >information a >principal is comfortable providing. It may force the principal to >explain how >the school handles the entire violence issue and the use of medication >to >control behavior in the school. Its reasonable for a school to share >that >information and a parent to ask for it. Its part of the school >community and >part of the schools fabric. > The message, concludes McDaniels, is that we need to develop >youngsters without stimulants and other foreign substances. Too often >we are >opting for a way of treatment that is a lot easier to implement than >sitting >down and working out the problems. This is a public-health issue and >it seems >reasonable to look at it. > James E. Copple is vice president of the National Crime >Prevention >Council, a nonprofit organization that focuses on creating safer >communities >by addressing
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Response:
. Carrie