SSRIs

Question:

I regret to announce that due to violations of the Criminal Code of Canada, it will not be possible for our latest friend, Frenchy, to continue to play with us. According to Mark Adamson, a Policy Management Specialist with AT&T Canada, specific posts directed at myself and Carrie violated Canada’s Criminal Code. Given the option of prosecution or termination of account … well … you know … Frenchy will not be posting from AT&T anymore. All the posts were reviewed by AT&T — mine, Carrie’s and his. Like I said to his last post: Feel paranoid. Do not start posting racist, hateful crap and then expect to be treated like "one of the guys". Eric — I understand that you are not a Klansman. I can see that in your writing and your responses to people like Frenchy … that is why I have never sent any of your posts to your ISP. I know that a great deal of what you say comes out of anger, and that really sucks — I have been there … often. Do not for a minute think that I acted out of vindictiveness. Had Frenchy only attacked me, I would not have said anything. However, he repeatedly attacked women, posting misogynistic, sick and demented rape fantasies. That was over the edge and I could not stand for it. Fortunately in Canada we have laws regarding the publication of that type of material. Frenchy is in Toronto. Now he is without an ISP. Bob — this is how you deal with things. For those who contributed to the campaign … thanks. For Carrie — I am sorry you had to see some of that crap. For Linda — sorry your friend is gone. Peter —

Question:

Anyone have any experiences being on meds and taking psychedelics & mushrooms? Are there any known problems with this combo? p.s. – I’m on Paxil and want to try shrooms and acid.

Response:

If I recall correctly, LSD triggers a massive and sustained release of serotonin. As Paxil is an SSRI, I’d think the combination might be dangerous. It just might make for a cheaper/better high. I’m sure somebody’s done it…. Larry

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> Anyone have any experiences being on meds and taking psychedelics & mushrooms? > Are there any known problems with this combo? > p.s. – I’m on Paxil and want to try shrooms and acid.

Response:

I think Larry’s confusing LSD’s mechanism with that of Ecstacy (MDMA). LSD does act on serotonin amongst other neurotransmitters but not by releasing a flood of serotonin. But Ecstacy does, and you would be well advised to tread very carefully when using Ecstacy on top of prescribed SSRIs. I took both Acid and mushies without any problems at all while using Paxil, which I took for about a year.

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> If I recall correctly, LSD triggers a massive and sustained release of > serotonin. As Paxil is an SSRI, I’d think the combination might be > dangerous. It just might make for a cheaper/better high. I’m sure somebody’s > done it…. > Larry > Anyone have any experiences being on meds and taking psychedelics & > mushrooms? > Are there any known problems with this combo? > p.s. – I’m on Paxil and want to try shrooms and acid.

Response:

I’m sorry, but you didn’t recall correctly…that was mdma. There are some articles on these combinations (psychedelics and antidepressants) on-line on erowid (look under lsd).

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text ->If I recall correctly, LSD triggers a massive and sustained release of >serotonin. As Paxil is an SSRI, I’d think the combination might be >dangerous. It just might make for a cheaper/better high. I’m sure somebody’s >done it…. >Larry > Anyone have any experiences being on meds and taking psychedelics & >mushrooms? > Are there any known problems with this combo? > p.s. – I’m on Paxil and want to try shrooms and acid.

Response:

>Anyone have any experiences being on meds and taking psychedelics & mushrooms? >Are there any known problems with this combo? >p.s. – I’m on Paxil and want to try shrooms and acid.

The SSRI’s tend to reduce the effects of psychedelics. See: http://www.erowid.org/chemicals/maois/maois_info4.shtml Mind Books offers publications about psychedelics;

Response:

You must be young and not scared of any kind of problem you may create for yourself.  Hey, been there.  I’m gonna live forever trip.  Paxil + LSD. Hell, LSD will give you a panic attack.  This combo could be counterproductive. Now that I know that more than 1/2 of my life is done for and I don’t have an eternity left – I realize what a danger that could be.  I was young when all the Hippies were doing LSD, Shrooms, Cocaine, Heroin and Weed and at an impressionable age.  Acid trips were groovy, shrooms either made you puke or were a great trip and weed, well that is what all the US draft dodgers that came to hidden places on the BC Coast grew and sold for a living.  Story is that they still don’t know the war is over because they have forgotten why then went into the bushes in the first place. That may tell you something. Cheers, Carrie

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> Anyone have any experiences being on meds and taking psychedelics & mushrooms? > Are there any known problems with this combo? > p.s. – I’m on Paxil and want to try shrooms and acid.

Response:

My understanding is that Ecstasy sucks up all your serotonin, more and more with each use.  Then eventually one day, you will never be able to experience happiness again, and be completely untreatable because your serotonin is forever depleted.  Hmmm.  Close enough? Cheers, Carrie

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> I think Larry’s confusing LSD’s mechanism with that of Ecstacy (MDMA). > LSD does act on serotonin amongst other neurotransmitters but not by > releasing a flood of serotonin. But Ecstacy does, and you would be well > advised to tread very carefully when using Ecstacy on top of prescribed > SSRIs. > I took both Acid and mushies without any problems at all while using Paxil, > which I took for about a year. > If I recall correctly, LSD triggers a massive and sustained release of > serotonin. As Paxil is an SSRI, I’d think the combination might be > dangerous. It just might make for a cheaper/better high. I’m sure > somebody’s > done it…. > Larry > > Anyone have any experiences being on meds and taking psychedelics & > mushrooms? > > Are there any known problems with this combo? > > p.s. – I’m on Paxil and want to try shrooms and acid.

Response:

I would agree that at least some antidepressants decrease the effects of psychedelics.  Four or five months ago I tried several doses of acid that many were raving about.  I barely noticed it.  Twice during this period I also tried shrooms and only a massive amount (the second time) gave me any shroom experience at all. I am normally fairly sensitive to psychedelics.  I was taking Serzone at nearly 600 mg./day at that time. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text ->Anyone have any experiences being on meds and taking psychedelics & mushrooms? >Are there any known problems with this combo? >p.s. – I’m on Paxil and want to try shrooms and acid. > The SSRI’s tend to reduce the effects of psychedelics. See: > http://www.erowid.org/chemicals/maois/maois_info4.shtml > Mind Books offers publications about psychedelics;

Response:

True, back in the late 70’s I did quite a bit of acid and only once did I have a truly good trip.  The stuff never helped me any and I flipped out on it several times, probably worsening my mental condition for a long period of time.  A psychiatrist told me during that time that he figured someone with a well integrated personality could benefit from psychedelics, but those of us who are not so stable should probably avoid them. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – > << > You must be young and not scared of any kind of problem you may create for > yourself.  Hey, been there.  I’m gonna live forever trip.  Paxil + LSD. > Hell, LSD will give you a panic attack.  This combo could be > counterproductive. > Now that I know that more than 1/2 of my life is done for and I don’t have > an eternity left – I realize what a danger that could be.  I was young when > all the Hippies were doing LSD, Shrooms, Cocaine, Heroin and Weed and at an > impressionable age.  Acid trips were groovy, shrooms either made you puke or > were a great trip and weed, well that is what all the US draft dodgers that > came to hidden places on the BC Coast grew and sold for a living.  Story is > that they still don’t know the war is over because they have forgotten why > then went into the bushes in the first place. > That may tell you something. > Cheers, > Carrie >> > True, recreatonal hallucinogenic drugs like LSD, PCP and ecstasy have sent more > than one formally normal person to the psych ward, to lockup for psychosis. I > wonder how many cases of schizophrenia have been activated from messing with > hallucinogenics? > There is a guy on here who claims that combining ecstasy with Effexor totally > screwed himup. Im not surprised at all. > Another  drug that really can send you psychotic is that GHB crap…the date > rape drug. Repeated use of it leads to paranoia and eventual total psychosis. > Needless to say, anyone who already has mental illness problems and messes with > hallucinogenics deserves whatever they get. > Eric > Steroids caused my depression…prednisone should be used conservatively > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FactsAndFallaciesOfDepression > MIBS (Minimally Invasive Brain Stimulation) > http://www.musc.edu/psychiatry/fnrd/tms.htm

Response:

> Anyone have any experiences being on meds and taking psychedelics & mushrooms? > Are there any known problems with this combo?

SSRIs and acid should be ok. SSRIs will lessen the fx of mdma, but in my experience acid still kicks ass.

Response:

It does ‘deplete reserves’ of serotonin, so overuse will dry you up, as it were. Proving you give yourself three or four weeks between hits, you’re OK because your body gets chance to ‘restock’.

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> My understanding is that Ecstasy sucks up all your serotonin, more and more > with each use.  Then eventually one day, you will never be able to > experience happiness again, and be completely untreatable because your > serotonin is forever depleted.  Hmmm.  Close enough? > Cheers, > Carrie > I think Larry’s confusing LSD’s mechanism with that of Ecstacy (MDMA). > LSD does act on serotonin amongst other neurotransmitters but not by > releasing a flood of serotonin. But Ecstacy does, and you would be well > advised to tread very carefully when using Ecstacy on top of prescribed > SSRIs. > I took both Acid and mushies without any problems at all while using > Paxil, > which I took for about a year. > > If I recall correctly, LSD triggers a massive and sustained release of > > serotonin. As Paxil is an SSRI, I’d think the combination might be > > dangerous. It just might make for a cheaper/better high. I’m sure > somebody’s > > done it…. > > Larry > > > Anyone have any experiences being on meds and taking psychedelics & > > mushrooms? > > > Are there any known problems with this combo? > > > p.s. – I’m on Paxil and want to try shrooms and acid.

Response:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text ->True, back in the late 70’s I did quite a bit of acid and only once did I >have a >truly good trip.  The stuff never helped me any and I flipped out on it >several >times, probably worsening my mental condition for a long period of time.  A >psychiatrist told me during that time that he figured someone with a well >integrated personality could benefit from psychedelics, but those of us who >are not >so stable should probably avoid them. > You are an idiot. Psychedelic drugs build nobody up, whether they are "stable" > or not. Your Psychiatrist was an idiot and should have his medical license > pulled.

While I would not suggest that people do LSD, many people made significant breakthroughs while taking LSD in therapeutic settings in experiments during the 60’s…. Psychedelics are quite powerful, and can lead to very powerful insights, or powerful bad trips…thats the rub.

Response:

DONT BE STUPID!!! IF YOUR ON ANTI-D’s THERE MUST BE A REASON EITHER U DONT HAVE THE ABLITY TO COPE WITH LIFE OR U HAVE A PROBLEM WITH CHEMICALS IN YOUR BRAIN, EITHER TRY TO STOP TAKING PAXIL AND LIVE A HAPPY LIFE WITHOUT MEDICATION FOR A WHILE OR GIVE UP THE IDEA OF TAKING PSYCHEDELICS. IM ONLY TELLING U THIS FOR YOUR OWN GOOD, THERE CAN BE TRERRIBLE PROBLEMS INVOLVED. ANDY

Response:

We can all be happy that we are not on LSD and trying to read this post. I can’t read this – my brain starts screaming out the words and echoing off my interior skull, I feel so internally abused . Carrie

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> DONT BE STUPID!!! > IF YOUR ON ANTI-D’s THERE MUST BE A REASON EITHER U DONT HAVE THE > ABLITY TO COPE WITH LIFE OR U HAVE A PROBLEM WITH CHEMICALS IN YOUR > BRAIN, EITHER TRY TO STOP TAKING PAXIL AND LIVE A HAPPY LIFE WITHOUT > MEDICATION FOR A WHILE OR GIVE UP THE IDEA OF TAKING PSYCHEDELICS. IM > ONLY TELLING U THIS FOR YOUR OWN GOOD, THERE CAN BE TRERRIBLE PROBLEMS > INVOLVED. > > ANDY

Response:

> DONT BE STUPID!!! > IF YOUR ON ANTI-D’s THERE MUST BE A REASON EITHER U DONT HAVE THE > ABLITY TO COPE WITH LIFE OR U HAVE A PROBLEM WITH CHEMICALS IN YOUR > BRAIN, EITHER TRY TO STOP TAKING PAXIL AND LIVE A HAPPY LIFE WITHOUT > MEDICATION FOR A WHILE OR GIVE UP THE IDEA OF TAKING PSYCHEDELICS. IM > ONLY TELLING U THIS FOR YOUR OWN GOOD, THERE CAN BE TRERRIBLE PROBLEMS > INVOLVED. > > ANDY

Telling people to stop taking their prescribed antidepressant medication is both stupid and dangerous. Of course, in fairness, it is probably also both stupid and dangerous to combine antidepressants with many recreational drugs. And, on most keyboards, the caps lock key in on the left side of the keyboard, third key up. Stop Caps Abuse! Lizard

Response:

I thought I was okay until I read this email. The words are still rattling in my skull…. {Phant downs a Valium and 5Mg of Paxil then drops some acid just for kicks} Oh by the way, the reason people are prescribed SSRIs is often because they suffer a biological deficiency in prevailing serotonin levels which SSRIs correct. Then you can lead a normal life, which for some people includes recreational drugs.

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> DONT BE STUPID!!! > IF YOUR ON ANTI-D’s THERE MUST BE A REASON EITHER U DONT HAVE THE > ABLITY TO COPE WITH LIFE OR U HAVE A PROBLEM WITH CHEMICALS IN YOUR > BRAIN, EITHER TRY TO STOP TAKING PAXIL AND LIVE A HAPPY LIFE WITHOUT > MEDICATION FOR A WHILE OR GIVE UP THE IDEA OF TAKING PSYCHEDELICS. IM > ONLY TELLING U THIS FOR YOUR OWN GOOD, THERE CAN BE TRERRIBLE PROBLEMS > INVOLVED. > > ANDY

Response:

> And perhaps in some cases the recreational drugs my inhibit or > counteract the correcting effect of the SSRI. But as along as you have > the approval of the psychiatrist perscribing you the SSRI I guess it’s > OK.:)

The problem is that halluginogens/SSRI interactions haven’t really been widely studied. I think that if you’ve suffered from mood problems or depression then you’re safer taking acid while on SSRIs than while NOT on SSRIs. Of course – in general – it’s not advisable period. ALCOHOL in my experience uis the worst thing for inhibiting SSRI medication. – Life’s a bitch

Response:

>> And perhaps in some cases the recreational drugs my inhibit or > counteract the correcting effect of the SSRI. But as along as you have > the approval of the psychiatrist perscribing you the SSRI I guess it’s > OK.:) >The problem is that halluginogens/SSRI interactions haven’t really been >widely studied.

There was one study: http://www.erowid.org/chemicals/maois/maois_info4.shtml >I think that if you’ve suffered from mood problems or depression then you’re >safer taking acid while on SSRIs than while NOT on SSRIs. >Of course – in general – it’s not advisable period. >ALCOHOL in my experience uis the worst thing for inhibiting SSRI >medication. – Life’s a bitch

Mind Books offers publications about psychedelics;

Response:

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text ->My understanding is that Ecstasy sucks up all your serotonin, more and more >with each use.  Then eventually one day, you will never be able to >experience happiness again, and be completely untreatable because your >serotonin is forever depleted.  Hmmm.  Close enough? >Cheers, >Carrie > No, Ecstasy does cause hyper secretion of Serotonin (and to a slightly > lesser extent dopamine), and it can take some time to rebuild > reserves, but the real damage is due to the hyper secretion depleting > the neuron’s energy reserves reducing it ability to repair free > radical/oxygen damage. It also makes it difficult for the neuron to > regulate ion exchange across the membrane and maintain internal > calcium ion (C++) balance. > BTW-anyone stupid enough to do E probably shouldn’t drink anything > containing Aspartame (Nutrasweet), which is made from Phenylalanine an > amino acid precursor of Dopamine. Increased Dopamine expression seems > to be necessary to produce physical neuron damage – damage that long > term studies suggest is irreversible. > Ian

Thanks for info, Ian.  In addition, for anyone on MAOIs – same deal with the Aspartame.  I always forgot that on MAOIs.  Mind you the amount you generally use is small, but what about someone like me that will drink 5 diet cokes a day? Carrie

Response:

> Antidepressants (ADs) can affect the body’s response to Ecstasy / > MDMA. Mixing some ADs and MDMA (and indeed most of the > hallucinogens) is very risky and some combinations can be fatal.

    Are there any fatal combinations of ADs and LSD?  Just wondering. — The optimist proclaims we live in the best of all possible worlds.  The pessimist fears this may be true.

Response:

> Thanks for info, Ian.  In addition, for anyone on MAOIs – same deal with the > Aspartame.  I always forgot that on MAOIs.  Mind you the amount you > generally use is small, but what about someone like me that will drink 5 > diet cokes a day?

      I’ve never understood why anyone would drink even ONE diet coke in a day. — The optimist proclaims we live in the best of all possible worlds.  The pessimist fears this may be true.

Response:

My girlfriend takes Effexor. It’s an antidepressant. For some reason she seems to have a very negative and grouchy effect with X but we’ve tripped plenty of times off of shrooms and acid… not at the same time though.  I also recently starting taking an antideprtessant… Serzone and I have yet to try it on X but I haven’t had any problems with shrooms or LSD either. I’m not an expert… just my observations.

> Anyone have any experiences being on meds and taking psychedelics & mushrooms? > Are there any known problems with this combo? > p.s. – I’m on Paxil and want to try shrooms and acid.

—–= Posted via Newsfeeds.Com, Uncensored Usenet News =—– http://www.newsfeeds.com – The #1 Newsgroup Service in the World! —–==  Over 80,000 Newsgroups – 16 Different Servers! =—–

Response:

>    Are there any fatal combinations of ADs and LSD?  Just wondering.

No, not fatal or physically harmful ones. But the AD’s can affect the level of effects, up or down; see: http://www.erowid.org/chemicals/maois/maois_info4.shtml Mind Books offers publications about psychedelics;

Response:

>Its a lot more complicated than that. Below is something I wrote last >year for another group which explains what happens, and can happen >even with the very first dose.

Unfortunately, you did not include dose-related information. Dose makes a huge difference. For example, Vollenweider has run studies giving about 120 mg of MDMA to human subjects who had never had it, and did not find any loss of 5HT transporters (as so no loss of 5HT axons). >…if you wanted to design a drug specifically to boost the incidence of >emotional disorders (and to a lesser extent psychotic illnesses), you >would be hard pressed to better Ecstasy and it’s chemical cousins.

This is complete bullshit. MDMA, used in psychiatric circles, has had many wonderful results. There’s no evidence that MDMA has caused any psychotic illness, or emotional disorders other than temporary depression the week after using it, and a limited number of anxiety disorders related to PTSD. >To compound their effects the methamphetamines

Lumping all methamphetamines together is irresponsable. Their dose-related neurotoxic effects are different, and the mental consequences of use are different. >these effects result in long-term Serotonin depletion[2b,5] within >affected neurons, and in some cases near complete exhaustion.

Many of these "studies" are highly biased, using much higher doses than most humans in animals, or comparing people who "party hearty" every weekend with graduate students. You have to carefully examine each study for flaws. There are some relatively accurate studies which show certain kind of damage or problems. It’s odd you did not mention the episodic memory problems, as several studies have shown these. Though most of these studies suffer from design problems, some (especially the Zakzanis paper in Neurology earlier this year) are credible. Whether this happens with people taking moderate doses (120 mg or so) of MDMA is still an open question. Zakzanis found significant memory problems (for some kinds of tasks but not others) in a group taking an average dose of 175 mg 2.4 times a month, but the dose range was 50 to 300 mg per episode, up to 15 times per month. Since all studies show damage is dose-related, his subjects showing memory problems could be only the ones taking the higher doses. One reason this seems probable is that blood levels of MDMA are not linear with dose; above a threshold (which is above the moderate 120 mg dose) blood levels rise more rapidly than linear with increasing MDMA doses. >The result can be the death of axon terminals and their >synapses,[1a,2a,5,7] and even of the neurons themselves. While >the degree of structural damage to cells appears to correlate to >the degree of drug use,[8] significant, long-term  damage can >occur from a single dose.[2a]

Sure, death could occur from a single dose, if someone ate a few ounces of MDMA! Even Ricarte, one of the most heavily biased researchers, has said most recreational users are probably not having significent levels of damage. Dose makes a huge difference. From the scientific evidence, it appears a single dose of around 120 mg (in average weight people), not repeated often (say, no more than once a month), probably does not cause axon loss. However, the neurotoxic threshold is probably not much above this level, even two of these doses (240 mg) could be reaching the neurotoxic level. >A study spanning 7 years[9] has shown that while some, limited, >improvement did occur, abnormal Serotonergic nerve patterns were >still evident at the end of the 7 year period.

In animals given relatively high doses. > A  number of psychiatric complications[3,10] may result from >this assault on Serotonin neurons, including depression and panic >disorder (PD).

Short-term depression the week after is relatively common; long- term depression or panic disorder is rare. Really, mixing in common problems with uncommon ones is misleading. >Hyper-secretion of Dopamine may lead to the onset >of Schizophrenia, a psychotic illness thought to result from >excess Dopamine expression in particular brain regions.

You are saying MDMA can cause schizophrenia? That’s rediculous. >While the onset of these disorders tends to become more likely with >prolonged use, it is possible to develop a disorder such as PD from >the first dose.[11]

Possible, but very unlikely. Any intense, traumatic experience can cause panic disorder or other anxiety disorders (such as hypervigalence), sometimes to the elvel of PTSD. But these intense mental traumas are rare with MDMA. >The extent of the cell damage may be increased by relying on some >of the ’safety’ advise being given to the unwary. For example, as >the Serotonin hyper-secretion properties of Ecstasy etc has >become common knowledge, some have advised that taking either of >the Serotonin precursors L-Tryptophan (L-T) and 5-HTP before and >during drug use will prevent the harmful effects.

5HTP does reduce neurotoxicity, at lerast in animals. "Attenuation of 3,4-methylenedioxymethamphetamine (MDMA) induced neurotoxicity with the serotonin precursors tryptophan and 5-HTP", Sprague JE, Huang X, Kanthasamy A, Nichols DE Life Sci, 1994; 55(15):1193-8 >Unfortunately, as I’ve shown above,  the neuron damage seems to result >not  from the excess Serotonin production, but from the energy >depletion within cells that this causes.[1a,6]  

This is just a theory, and the fact that 5-HTP does reduce neurotoxic effects does not support your theory. The leading theory is that some dopamine (or an oxidized form) enters the 5-HT axons through the transporter (because of how MDMA affects the transporter). Some anti-oxidants (vitamin C, alpha-linoleic acid?) have been shown to reduce neurotoxicity in animal experiments. >Furthermore, Serotonin hyper-secretion activates an inhibition mechanism >that significantly slows L-T conversion to Serotonin.[3,13]

It does reduce the TP to 5-HTP metabolism. Another ref for this is: "In vitro reactivation of rat cortical tryptophan hydroxylase following in vivo inactivation by MDMA", Stone DM, Hanson GR, Gibb JW, J Neurochem, 1989; 53(2):572-81 But that’s why 5-HTP is useful, the 5-HTP to 5-HT (serotonin) conversion is not affected. >Most users also seem unaware that both precursors can be >dangerous in their own right. A L-Tryptophan contaminant – Peak X >- was responsible for a number of deaths in the late 1980s, and >much, ongoing, suffering by the thousands affected by this >substance. Peak-X has also been found in both naturally derived >and chemically synthesised 5-HTP.

But this is very rare! 5-HTP is widely used aound the world as an antidepressant, and this "Peak-X" contaminant has not caused any problems that I have heard of. Again, you are implying there is a significant risk here, when the risk is really very low. >Many users have also been advised to consume lots of fluids to >combat the hypothermia and dehydration that Ecstasy may produce.

Indeed, about 25% of the few deaths attributed to MDMA were caused by drinking too much water, leading to hyponatremia (low sodium levels). People dancing or otherwise sweating on MDMA should add some salt to their water, or eat some salty snacks. (A sports drink such as Gatorade is even better.) >Often they are given drinks containing the sugar substitute >Aspartame. This is derived from the amino acid Phenylalanine – a >precursor of the neurotransmitters Dopamine and Noradrenaline >(Norepinephrin). As increased Dopamine expression appears to be >necessary to provoke oxidation injury to neurons,[14] this is >probably not a wise move, although more research is required.

It’s doubtful aspartame ingestion leads to excess dopamine effects. The effects of increased dopamine actions are pretty obvious, and aspartame is very widely used. >Antidepressants (ADs) can affect the body’s response to Ecstasy / >MDMA. Mixing some ADs and MDMA (and indeed most of the >hallucinogens) is very risky and some combinations can be fatal.

It depends on the class of AD. MAOI AD’s can be very dangerous if combined with MDMA. SSRI’s tend to only block the effects, though they probably also reduce the neurotoxicity. Though there has been some speculation that taking MDMA while on an SSRI could lead to enough excess serotonin to cause serotonin syndrome, in practice this does not appear to be a real problem, at least using rational levels of MDMA. There’s more on the problems of AD’s and psychedelics at: http://www.erowid.org/chemicals/maois/maois_info4.shtml You really need to learn to separate the real problems that a significant number of MDMA users are probably getting (axon loss and memory problems at higher doses and frequencies) from random theories and rare effects. My apologies for not having time to post more references. Mind Books offers publications about psychedelics;

Response:

Question:

Has anyone had any success trying high doses of folate/folic acid as a supplement to Prozac/other SSRIs? FOLIC ACID SUPPLEMENTS FOR DEPRESSION A November 2000 study shows that folic acid supplements are a simple way to greatly improving the antidepressant action of fluoxetine (Prozac) and probably other antidepressants. In addition to improving the effectiveness of fluoxetine, folic acid supplements also greatly reduced the side effects of fluoxetine. This study concludes that folic acid levels used should be sufficient to decrease plasma homocysteine and that men require a higher dose of folic acid to achieve this than do women. Coppen & Bailey (2000) Enhancement of the antidepressant action of fluoxetine by folic acid: a randomized, placebo controlled trial. Journal of Affective Disorders 60, p121-130

Response:

>Has anyone had any success trying high doses of folate/folic acid as a >supplement to Prozac/other SSRIs?

I haven’t used them for depression, but my folate level (along with B12) is one of the things that my pdoc screened for the first time he saw me.  And when my depression recently got worse again, he got another level, because he said that anticonvulsants, which I take for bipolar, often decrease folate levels.  However, mine was fine.  But I do take B-complex. Emily – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text ->FOLIC ACID SUPPLEMENTS FOR DEPRESSION >A November 2000 study shows that folic acid supplements are a simple way to >greatly improving the antidepressant action of fluoxetine (Prozac) and >probably other antidepressants. In addition to improving the effectiveness >of fluoxetine, folic acid supplements also greatly reduced the side effects >of fluoxetine. This study concludes that folic acid levels used should be >sufficient to decrease plasma homocysteine and that men require a higher >dose of folic acid to achieve this than do women. >Coppen & Bailey (2000) Enhancement of the antidepressant action of >fluoxetine by folic acid: a randomized, placebo controlled trial. Journal of >Affective Disorders 60, p121-130

Response:

I’m not familiar with use of folic acid.  But I do know women respond better to different B vitamins than men do.  B-6 is one that most women find very effective. Christina

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> Has anyone had any success trying high doses of folate/folic acid as a > supplement to Prozac/other SSRIs? > FOLIC ACID SUPPLEMENTS FOR DEPRESSION > A November 2000 study shows that folic acid supplements are a simple way to > greatly improving the antidepressant action of fluoxetine (Prozac) and > probably other antidepressants. In addition to improving the effectiveness > of fluoxetine, folic acid supplements also greatly reduced the side effects > of fluoxetine. This study concludes that folic acid levels used should be > sufficient to decrease plasma homocysteine and that men require a higher > dose of folic acid to achieve this than do women. > Coppen & Bailey (2000) Enhancement of the antidepressant action of > fluoxetine by folic acid: a randomized, placebo controlled trial. Journal of > Affective Disorders 60, p121-130

Response:

mental case! Who has as she put it, "a delicate mental condition!" Do not listen to this piece of shit! She’s a mental case! All fucked up in the head! A piece of shit! – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> I’m not familiar with use of folic acid.  But I do know women respond better > to different B vitamins than men do.  B-6 is one that most women find very > effective. > Christina > Has anyone had any success trying high doses of folate/folic acid as a > supplement to Prozac/other SSRIs? > FOLIC ACID SUPPLEMENTS FOR DEPRESSION > A November 2000 study shows that folic acid supplements are a simple way > to > greatly improving the antidepressant action of fluoxetine (Prozac) and > probably other antidepressants. In addition to improving the effectiveness > of fluoxetine, folic acid supplements also greatly reduced the side > effects > of fluoxetine. This study concludes that folic acid levels used should be > sufficient to decrease plasma homocysteine and that men require a higher > dose of folic acid to achieve this than do women. > Coppen & Bailey (2000) Enhancement of the antidepressant action of > fluoxetine by folic acid: a randomized, placebo controlled trial. Journal > of > Affective Disorders 60, p121-130

Response:

I don’t know the ideal dose of folate supplementation.  It looks like 500 microgram of folate per day is sufficient for most women, according to the trial (below), with men requiring more. Folate is usually sold by pharmacists in tablets of around 500 microgram — typically taken once daily by women (for pregnancy/menstruation).  But it’s also sold by pharmacies in 5 milligram tablets, which is 10X that dose. There are no adverse effects from taking a high dose of folate in a healthy person — it’s a water-soluble vitamin. So men could probably do with taking that sort of dose (5 mg) daily. Enhancement of the antidepressant action of fluoxetine by folic acid: a randomised, placebo controlled trial. Coppen A, Bailey J MRC Neuropsychiatry Laboratory, West Park Hospital, KT19 8PB, Surrey, Epsom, UK. BACKGROUND: A consistent finding in major depression has been a low plasma and red cell folate which has also been linked to poor response to antidepressants. The present investigation was designed to investigate whether the co-administration of folic acid would enhance the antidepressant action of fluoxetine. METHODS: 127 patients were randomly assigned to receive either 500 microg folic acid or an identical looking placebo in addition to 20 mg fluoxetine daily. All patients met the DSM-III-R criteria for major depression and had a baseline Hamilton Rating Scale (17 item version) score for depression of 20 or more. Baseline and 10-week estimations of plasma folate and homocysteine were carried out. RESULTS: Patients receiving folate showed a significant increase in plasma folate.This was less in men than in women. Plasma homocysteine was significantly decreased in women by 20.6%, but there was no significant change in men. Overall there was a significantly greater improvement in the fluoxetine plus folic acid group. This was confined to women where the mean Hamilton Rating Scale score on completion was 6.8 (S.D. 4. 1) in the fluoxetine plus folate group, as compared to 11.7 (S.D. 6. 7) in the fluoxetine plus placebo group (P<0.001).A percentage of 93. 9 of women, who received the folic acid supplement, showed a good response (>50% reduction in score) as compared to 61.1% of women who received placebo supplement (P<0.005). Eight (12.9%) patients in the fluoxetine plus folic acid group reported symptoms possibly or probably related to medication, whereas in the fluoxetine plus placebo group 19 (29.7%) patients reported such symptoms (P<0.05). LIMITATIONS AND CONCLUSIONS: Folic acid is a simple method of greatly improving the antidepressant action of fluoxetine and probably other antidepressants. Folic acid should be given in doses sufficient to decrease plasma homocysteine. Men require a higher dose of folic acid to achieve this than women, but more work is required to ascertain the optimum dose of folic acid. J Affective Disorders 2000 Nov;60(2):121-30

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> I used to take a B-100 capsule everyday and when I did that I noticed I would > get a very mildly better antidepressant response from my meds. It was nothing > spectacular but I noticed a slight improvement. I never tried supplementing > with higher doses than that. > How much folate is needed for AD supplementation do you know? > Eric

Response:

> Folate is usually sold by pharmacists in tablets of around 500 microgram — > typically taken once daily by women (for pregnancy/menstruation).  But it’s > So men could probably do with taking that sort of dose (5 mg) daily. > Enhancement of the antidepressant action of fluoxetine by folic acid: a > randomised, placebo controlled trial.

Yeah the ideal dose of folate is a mystery to me too.  I’d like to thank whoever posted the original reference.  I chow down 10 or more 400 mcg folates whenever I remember; I’d like to take a higher dose supplement but for some reason the federal legislature thought they could be better health care providers than doctors and limited pill forms to that amount. Andy

Response:

>Yeah the ideal dose of folate is a mystery to me too.  I’d like to thank >whoever posted the original reference.  I chow down 10 or more 400 mcg >folates whenever I remember; I’d like to take a higher dose supplement but >for some reason the federal legislature thought they could be better >health care providers than doctors and limited pill forms to that amount.

Andy, The amount you’re taking is a huge overdose and can be harmful! Please, cut it down to 1000 or maybe 1500 mcg at most. Here’s an abstract that should be of interest (emphasis added): Prog Neuropsychopharmacol Biol Psychiatry 1989;13(6):841-63 Folic acid and psychopathology. Young SN, Ghadirian AM Department of Psychiatry, McGill University, Montreal, Quebec, Canada. 1. The incidence of folic acid deficiency is high in patients with various psychiatric disorders including depression, dementia and schizophrenia. 2. In epileptics on anticonvulsants, folate deficiency often occurs because anticonvulsants inhibit folate absorption. In these patients folate deficiency is often associated with psychiatric symptoms. 3. In medical patients psychiatric symptoms occur more frequently, and in psychiatric patients symptoms are more severe, in those with folate deficiency than in those with normal levels. 4. Many open studies have demonstrated therapeutic effects of folate administration on psychiatric symptoms in folate deficient patients. 5. SEVERAL PLACEBO-CONTROLLED STUDIES HAVE NOT DEMONSTRATED THERAPEUTIC EFFECTS, POSSIBLY BECAUSE THE DOSES THEY USED (15-20 mg/day) ARE KNOW TO BE TOXIC AND TO CAUSE MENTAL SYMPTOMS. 6. Two placebo-controlled studies have demonstrated beneficial effects of folic acid administration, one in patients with a syndrome of psychiatric and neuropsychological changes associated with folate deficiency and the other in patients on long-term lithium therapy. In the latter study the dose was only 0.2 mg/day. 7. Folic acid deficiency is known to lower brain S-adenosylmethionine and 5-hydroxytryptamine. S-Adenosylmethionine, which has antidepressant properties, raises brain 5-hydroxytryptamine. Thus, depression associated with folate deficiency is probably related to low brain 5HT. 8. S-Adenosylmethionine is involved in many methylation reactions, including methylation of membrane phospholipids, which influences membrane properties. This may explain the wide variety of symptoms associated with folate deficiency. 9. Because the costs and risks associated with low doses of folic acid (up to 0.5 mg/day) are small, folic acid should be given as an adjunct in the treatment of patients with unipolar or bipolar affective disorders and anorexia, epileptics on anticonvulsants, geriatric patients with mental symptoms and patients with gastrointestinal disorders who exhibit psychiatric symptoms. 10. Although the majority of the patients listed above will probably not be helped by folic acid therapy, a significant minority are likely to have folate-responsive symptoms. good to "see" you <g>, -elizabeth

Response:

Some studies have shown that people who are nonresponsive to SSRIs, in particular, tend to improve with folate — that folate deficiency is what keeps them from responding to the ADs. As many as 2/5 of patients with major depression may be folate deficient (probably more like 1/4). Men appear to require higher doses than women. In general, around 500-1000 mcg is probably adequate for anyone with a folate deficiency. (That’s *micrograms*, not milligrams (the equivalent in mg is 0.5-1000 mg). Don’t take 5 mg of folic acid! It can be toxic.) I think most folate supplements you can get in drug stores over the counter are 400mcg (0.4mg); my dad takes a 1mg supplement by prescription (he has well-controlled heart disease, thanks to meds, surgery, dietary changes, and exercise). I don’t think it works terribly well except in people who are deficient in folate so you shouldn’t expect miracles if your folate levels are normal. BTW, this might be a first step in explaining the connection between depression and cardiovascular disease. That’s pretty cool. Here’s an abstract that explains a little about the current theories regarding folate and depression: Nutr Rev 1996 Dec;54(12):382-90 Folate, vitamin B12, and neuropsychiatric disorders. Bottiglieri T, Kimberly H. Courtwright and Joseph W. Summers Institute of Metabolic Disease, Baylor University Medical Center, Dallas, Texas, USA. Folate and vitamin B12 are required both in the methylation of homocysteine to methionine and in the synthesis of S-adenosylmethionine. S-adenosylmethionine is involved in numerous methylation reactions involving proteins, phospholipids, DNA, and neurotransmitter metabolism. Both folate and vitamin B12 deficiency may cause similar neurologic and psychiatric disturbances including depression, dementia, and a demyelinating myelopathy. A current theory proposes that a defect in methylation processes is central to the biochemical basis of the neuropsychiatry of these vitamin deficiencies. Folate deficiency may specifically affect central monoamine metabolism and aggravate depressive disorders. In addition, the neurotoxic effects of homocysteine may also play a role in the neurologic and psychiatric disturbances that are associated with folate and vitamin B12 deficiency. -elizabeth

Response:

>Don’t take 5 mg of folic acid! It can be toxic.

Folate 5 mg tablets should not be toxic to a healthy person.  The 5 mg tablets are sold over-the-counter in Australia.  It is a water-soluble, B vitamin. However, folate interacts with the trimethoprim/sulphonamide antibacterials, some anticonvulsants,  sulphasalazine, methotrexate and other drugs.

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> Some studies have shown that people who are nonresponsive to SSRIs, in > particular, tend to improve with folate — that folate deficiency is what > keeps them from responding to the ADs. As many as 2/5 of patients with major > depression may be folate deficient (probably more like 1/4). > Men appear to require higher doses than women. In general, around 500-1000 > mcg is probably adequate for anyone with a folate deficiency. (That’s > *micrograms*, not milligrams (the equivalent in mg is 0.5-1000 mg). Don’t > take 5 mg of folic acid! It can be toxic.) > I think most folate supplements you can get in drug stores over the counter > are 400mcg (0.4mg); my dad takes a 1mg supplement by prescription (he has > well-controlled heart disease, thanks to meds, surgery, dietary changes, and > exercise). > I don’t think it works terribly well except in people who are deficient in > folate so you shouldn’t expect miracles if your folate levels are normal. > BTW, this might be a first step in explaining the connection between > depression and cardiovascular disease. That’s pretty cool. > Here’s an abstract that explains a little about the current theories > regarding folate and depression: > Nutr Rev 1996 Dec;54(12):382-90 > Folate, vitamin B12, and neuropsychiatric disorders. > Bottiglieri T, Kimberly H. > Courtwright and Joseph W. Summers Institute of Metabolic Disease, Baylor > University Medical Center, Dallas, Texas, USA. > Folate and vitamin B12 are required both in the methylation of homocysteine > to methionine and in the synthesis of S-adenosylmethionine. > S-adenosylmethionine is involved in numerous methylation reactions involving > proteins, phospholipids, DNA, and neurotransmitter metabolism. Both folate > and vitamin B12 deficiency may cause similar neurologic and psychiatric > disturbances including depression, dementia, and a demyelinating myelopathy. > A current theory proposes that a defect in methylation processes is central > to the biochemical basis of the neuropsychiatry of these vitamin > deficiencies. Folate deficiency may specifically affect central monoamine > metabolism and aggravate depressive disorders. In addition, the neurotoxic > effects of homocysteine may also play a role in the neurologic and > psychiatric disturbances that are associated with folate and vitamin B12 > deficiency. > -elizabeth

Response:

> Andy, > The amount you’re taking is a huge overdose and can be harmful! Please, cut > it down to 1000 or maybe 1500 mcg at most. Here’s an abstract that should be > of interest (emphasis added): > Prog Neuropsychopharmacol Biol Psychiatry 1989;13(6):841-63 > Folic acid and psychopathology. > Young SN, Ghadirian AM > Department of Psychiatry, McGill University, Montreal, Quebec, Canada. > patients. 5. SEVERAL PLACEBO-CONTROLLED STUDIES HAVE NOT DEMONSTRATED > THERAPEUTIC EFFECTS, POSSIBLY BECAUSE THE DOSES THEY USED (15-20 mg/day) ARE > KNOW TO BE TOXIC AND TO CAUSE MENTAL SYMPTOMS. 6. Two placebo-controlled

Elizabeth, Thanks for taking the time to point this out to me.  I had no idea and will cut the dose down to 2X 400mcg a day.  I hope all is well. Andy

Response:

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> Andy, > The amount you’re taking is a huge overdose and can be harmful! Please, cut > it down to 1000 or maybe 1500 mcg at most. Here’s an abstract that should be > of interest (emphasis added): > Prog Neuropsychopharmacol Biol Psychiatry 1989;13(6):841-63 > Folic acid and psychopathology. > Young SN, Ghadirian AM > Department of Psychiatry, McGill University, Montreal, Quebec, Canada. > patients. 5. SEVERAL PLACEBO-CONTROLLED STUDIES HAVE NOT DEMONSTRATED > THERAPEUTIC EFFECTS, POSSIBLY BECAUSE THE DOSES THEY USED (15-20 mg/day) ARE > KNOW TO BE TOXIC AND TO CAUSE MENTAL SYMPTOMS. 6. Two placebo-controlled > Elizabeth, > Thanks for taking the time to point this out to me.  I had no idea and > will cut the dose down to 2X 400mcg a day.  I hope all is well. > Andy

Response:

The reference below says that 15-20 mg folate/folic acid is toxic.  But not 5 mg, or 10 X 400 micrograms. I have the label of the over-the-counter folic acid 5 mg tablets from Sigma Pharmaceuticals, 1408 Centre Rd, Clayton, Vic 3168, Australia — a reputable manufacturer of ethical pharmaceuticals: "Dose: Take one tablet daily or as directed by physician." There is a rigorous Poisons Act in Australia.  If folic acid was toxic at this sort of dose, it would certainly not be available in pharmacies over-the-counter, to say the least. The B-vitamins (including folate) are water-soluble.  It is generally the fat-soluble vitamins (eg A and D) that can have serious toxicity problems. The trial below states that: "Folic acid should be given in doses sufficient to decrease plasma homocysteine. Men require a higher dose of folic acid to achieve this than women, but more work is required to ascertain the optimum dose of folic acid."  The dose given in the trial was 500 microgram daily, but this was insufficient for most men in the study.  A significantly higher dose may be required. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> Elizabeth, > Thanks for taking the time to point this out to me.  I had no idea and > will cut the dose down to 2X 400mcg a day.  I hope all is well. > Andy > Andy, > The amount you’re taking is a huge overdose and can be harmful! Please, cut > it down to 1000 or maybe 1500 mcg at most. Here’s an abstract that should be > of interest (emphasis added): > Prog Neuropsychopharmacol Biol Psychiatry 1989;13(6):841-63 > Folic acid and psychopathology. > Young SN, Ghadirian AM > Department of Psychiatry, McGill University, Montreal, Quebec, Canada. > patients. 5. SEVERAL PLACEBO-CONTROLLED STUDIES HAVE NOT DEMONSTRATED > THERAPEUTIC EFFECTS, POSSIBLY BECAUSE THE DOSES THEY USED (15-20 mg/day) ARE > KNOW TO BE TOXIC AND TO CAUSE MENTAL SYMPTOMS. 6. Two placebo-controlled

Enhancement of the antidepressant action of fluoxetine by folic acid: a randomised, placebo controlled trial. Coppen A, Bailey J MRC Neuropsychiatry Laboratory, West Park Hospital, KT19 8PB, Surrey, Epsom, UK. BACKGROUND: A consistent finding in major depression has been a low plasma and red cell folate which has also been linked to poor response to antidepressants. The present investigation was designed to investigate whether the co-administration of folic acid would enhance the antidepressant action of fluoxetine. METHODS: 127 patients were randomly assigned to receive either 500 microg folic acid or an identical looking placebo in addition to 20 mg fluoxetine daily. All patients met the DSM-III-R criteria for major depression and had a baseline Hamilton Rating Scale (17 item version) score for depression of 20 or more. Baseline and 10-week estimations of plasma folate and homocysteine were carried out. RESULTS: Patients receiving folate showed a significant increase in plasma folate.This was less in men than in women. Plasma homocysteine was significantly decreased in women by 20.6%, but there was no significant change in men. Overall there was a significantly greater improvement in the fluoxetine plus folic acid group. This was confined to women where the mean Hamilton Rating Scale score on completion was 6.8 (S.D. 4. 1) in the fluoxetine plus folate group, as compared to 11.7 (S.D. 6. 7) in the fluoxetine plus placebo group (P<0.001).A percentage of 93. 9 of women, who received the folic acid supplement, showed a good response (>50% reduction in score) as compared to 61.1% of women who received placebo supplement (P<0.005). Eight (12.9%) patients in the fluoxetine plus folic acid group reported symptoms possibly or probably related to medication, whereas in the fluoxetine plus placebo group 19 (29.7%) patients reported such symptoms (P<0.05). LIMITATIONS AND CONCLUSIONS: Folic acid is a simple method of greatly improving the antidepressant action of fluoxetine and probably other antidepressants. Folic acid should be given in doses sufficient to decrease plasma homocysteine. Men require a higher dose of folic acid to achieve this than women, but more work is required to ascertain the optimum dose of folic acid. J Affective Disorders 2000 Nov;60(2):121-30

Response:

Question:

all good and all usefull!  :) thanks. mainly because i think of all the times i myself tried to "come off" a med ..lol. what do you think about two antidepressants used together? if it works what is the harm? harpy

Response:

>all good and all usefull!  :) >thanks. >mainly because i think of all the times i myself tried to "come off" a med >..lol. >what do you think about two antidepressants used together? >if it works what is the harm? >harpy

I think it’s pretty common to use 2 ADs together. like Prozac + Wellbutrin or Prozac + Trazadone. Wouldn’t make much sense to use 2 SSRIs together like Prozac + Zoloft…but then again, it’s what works that counts… What’s wrong with Fred (Viscount)? Click here for answers: http://x53.deja.com/[ST_rn=ps]/getdoc.xp?AN=683691056&CONTEXT=972383963.717291529&hitnum=24 You can also click on this link about psychopaths and observe how well it describes Fred: http://www.geocities.com/lycium7/

Response:

I think many of us are already taking two AD’s, so its kind of a moot question… but yeah… if it works, do it. Linda – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text ->all good and all usefull!  :) >thanks. >mainly because i think of all the times i myself tried to "come off" a med >..lol. >what do you think about two antidepressants used together? >if it works what is the harm? >harpy

Response:

informed me of this: :> What’s wrong with Fred (Viscount)? Click here for answers: :> : :The above link is not taking me to a site. It merely opens :a format to send an e mail.  I would like to see it, although :I already know what’s wrong with fred. : :Mark : Mark, this link should take you to a section of a post that Keith put out titled " more on Fred as a Psychopath". If you browser asks, tell it that this link is a message ID and not an email address. I don’t know how outlook express works with this.

Response:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – >informed me of this: >:> What’s wrong with Fred (Viscount)? Click here for answers: >:> >: >:The above link is not taking me to a site. It merely opens >:a format to send an e mail.  I would like to see it, although >:I already know what’s wrong with fred. >: >:Mark >: >Mark, this link should take you to a section of a post that Keith put >out titled " more on Fred as a Psychopath". If you browser asks, tell >it that this link is a message ID and not an email address. I don’t >know how outlook express works with this.

I fixed it to go to the Deja archives, that should work better. What’s wrong with Fred (Viscount)? Paste this link into your browser for answers: http://x53.deja.com/[ST_rn=ps]/getdoc.xp?AN=683691056&CONTEXT=972383963.717291529&hitnum=24 You can also click on this link about psychopaths and observe how well it describes Fred: http://www.geocities.com/lycium7/

Response:

Geez Bikerboy  When you get done worrying about whats wrong with Fred try and figure out whats wrong with Mark. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> What’s wrong with Fred (Viscount)? Click here for answers: > The above link is not taking me to a site. It merely opens > a format to send an e mail.  I would like to see it, although > I already know what’s wrong with fred. > Mark

Response:

Dos Do educate the patient on the proper use of an antidepressant to increase compliance. Do "start low and go slow" to minimize side effects. Start the antidepressant at a low dose and gradually increase the dose of medication as tolerated. Do use pharmacologic antidotes when necessary to minimize antidepressant-induced side effects. Do consider targeting all 3 neurotransmitters when treating depression: serotonin, norepinephrine, and dopamine. When switching antidepressants, do consider both the neurochemical effect as well as side effects. Do consider, when choosing an antidepressant, which side effects would be particularly detrimental to the patient — for example, weight gain in an obese patient or sedation in a patient with psychomotor retardation. Do consider augmenting with other antidepressants, mood stabilizers, or stimulants for partial responders. Do consider drug-drug interactions when choosing an antidepressant. Do prevent antidepressant discontinuation syndrome by slowly tapering the medication. Avoid abruptly reducing and/or discontinuing antidepressants. Do educate the patient that they should not stop taking the medication because they feel better. They should always consult with their physician first. Don’ts Don’t stop a medication before a patient has received an adequate trial of any antidepressant intervention. An adequate treatment trial includes an adequate dose for an adequate duration. Don’t ignore a patient’s complaints of side effects because you this may compromise compliance. Don’t forget to consider comorbid medical or psychiatric illnesses that can interfere with an adequate treatment response. Don’t be satisfied with a partial response. Aim to induce remission and prevent relapse. Don’t underestimate the importance of the doctor-patient therapeutic alliance. http://www.medscape.com/Medscape/psychiatry/TreatmentUpdate/2000/tu04… What’s wrong with Fred (Viscount)? Click here for answers:

Response:

Do’s and don’ts for Tinyfright. 1)  Do get a life. 2)   Do return to asdm-m 3)   Do learn something about bipolar disorder. 4)  Do stop whing about how Carol cleaned your clock in court. 5)   Do go outdoors and get some sun. 6)   Do get treatment for IAD 7)   Do have your momma hide the matches from you.                    Don’ts Don’t pretend to be Mr. Nice Guy who’s trying to save usenet from trolls. Don’t take advantage of mentally ill, vulerable women and then brag about it in e-mails to your hero, Viscount. More later… Viscount of ASDM – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – > Dos > Do educate the patient on the proper use of an antidepressant to > increase compliance. > Do "start low and go slow" to minimize side effects. Start the > antidepressant at a low dose and gradually increase the dose of > medication as tolerated. > Do use pharmacologic antidotes when necessary to minimize > antidepressant-induced side effects. > Do consider targeting all 3 neurotransmitters when treating > depression: serotonin, norepinephrine, and dopamine. When switching > antidepressants, do consider both the neurochemical effect as well as > side effects. > Do consider, when choosing an antidepressant, which side effects would > be particularly detrimental to the patient — for example, weight gain > in an obese patient or sedation in a patient with psychomotor > retardation. > Do consider augmenting with other antidepressants, mood stabilizers, > or stimulants for partial responders. > Do consider drug-drug interactions when choosing an antidepressant. > Do prevent antidepressant discontinuation syndrome by slowly tapering > the medication. Avoid abruptly reducing and/or discontinuing > antidepressants. > Do educate the patient that they should not stop taking the medication > because they feel better. They should always consult with their > physician first. > Don’ts > Don’t stop a medication before a patient has received an adequate > trial of any antidepressant intervention. An adequate treatment trial > includes an adequate dose for an adequate duration. > Don’t ignore a patient’s complaints of side effects because you this > may compromise compliance. > Don’t forget to consider comorbid medical or psychiatric illnesses > that can interfere with an adequate treatment response. > Don’t be satisfied with a partial response. Aim to induce remission > and prevent relapse. > Don’t underestimate the importance of the doctor-patient therapeutic > alliance. > http://www.medscape.com/Medscape/psychiatry/TreatmentUpdate/2000/tu04… > What’s wrong with Fred (Viscount)? Click here for answers:

Response:

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – >Do’s and don’ts for Tinyfright. >1)  Do get a life. >2)   Do return to asdm-m >3)   Do learn something about bipolar disorder. >4)  Do stop whing about how Carol cleaned your clock in court. >5)   Do go outdoors and get some sun. >6)   Do get treatment for IAD >7)   Do have your momma hide the matches from you. >                   Don’ts >Don’t pretend to be Mr. Nice Guy who’s trying to save usenet from trolls. >Don’t take advantage of mentally ill, vulerable women and then brag about it in e-mails >to your hero, Viscount.

Unlike Fred, I have never had to pretend to be nice. What’s wrong with Fred (Viscount)? Click here for answers:

Response:

> What’s wrong with Fred (Viscount)? Click here for answers:

The above link is not taking me to a site. It merely opens a format to send an e mail.  I would like to see it, although I already know what’s wrong with fred. Mark

Response:

>> What’s wrong with Fred (Viscount)? Click here for answers:

>The above link is not taking me to a site. It merely opens >a format to send an e mail.  I would like to see it, although >I already know what’s wrong with fred. >Mark

Web Page at: www.robertpo.com For email replies remove the ****

Response:

>>> What’s wrong with Fred (Viscount)? Click here for answers:

sigh didn’t work either Web Page at: www.robertpo.com For email replies remove the ****

Response:

hey Keith, I would add a few little things here. –Don’t assume that just because some responses to medications happen rarely, or very rarely, that one of your patients isn’t gonna be a rare person!! –Do be aware that allergic reactions do happen to medications and they can not be predicted.  Do stop all meds immediately if an allergic reaction does occur and deal with the resulting effects of this appropriately! otherwise, I say we print this out and give to our pdocs! Leslie J.

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> Dos > Do educate the patient on the proper use of an antidepressant to > increase compliance. > Do "start low and go slow" to minimize side effects. Start the > antidepressant at a low dose and gradually increase the dose of > medication as tolerated. > Do use pharmacologic antidotes when necessary to minimize > antidepressant-induced side effects. > Do consider targeting all 3 neurotransmitters when treating > depression: serotonin, norepinephrine, and dopamine. When switching > antidepressants, do consider both the neurochemical effect as well as > side effects. > Do consider, when choosing an antidepressant, which side effects would > be particularly detrimental to the patient — for example, weight gain > in an obese patient or sedation in a patient with psychomotor > retardation. > Do consider augmenting with other antidepressants, mood stabilizers, > or stimulants for partial responders. > Do consider drug-drug interactions when choosing an antidepressant. > Do prevent antidepressant discontinuation syndrome by slowly tapering > the medication. Avoid abruptly reducing and/or discontinuing > antidepressants. > Do educate the patient that they should not stop taking the medication > because they feel better. They should always consult with their > physician first. > Don’ts > Don’t stop a medication before a patient has received an adequate > trial of any antidepressant intervention. An adequate treatment trial > includes an adequate dose for an adequate duration. > Don’t ignore a patient’s complaints of side effects because you this > may compromise compliance. > Don’t forget to consider comorbid medical or psychiatric illnesses > that can interfere with an adequate treatment response. > Don’t be satisfied with a partial response. Aim to induce remission > and prevent relapse. > Don’t underestimate the importance of the doctor-patient therapeutic > alliance.

http://www.medscape.com/Medscape/psychiatry/TreatmentUpdate/2000/tu04… u04.html – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – > What’s wrong with Fred (Viscount)? Click here for answers:

Response:

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text ->>> What’s wrong with Fred (Viscount)? Click here for answers: >sigh didn’t work either >Web Page at: www.robertpo.com >For email replies remove the ****

The link is to the message I previously posted about Fred as a psychopath. Mark, your newsreader is misinterpreting it as an email front of the message ID…I’m using Agent too and it works fine for url (I have "Make an educated guess".) Sigh…I wasn’t expecting any problems until the original post began to expire from people’s news servers, at which time I was going to post it again and update my sig file… Here it is again: Fred’s own words give him away. He has said many times, both on this group and in emails, that he doesn’t care about anyone on the group. He knows that all the posters are real people, and he knows that he hurts them…he doesn’t care. http://www.geocities.com/lycium7/ (Excerpts) These psychopaths often think of themselves as special, and deserving of special privileges, even if unsaid. They can be found in all echelons of society, from low-class to high-class backgrounds, but they are never insane or crazy, rather, more like "morally insane." Tim Field, a noted author and webmaster of Bully OnLine, believes that the psychopath picks out people who can see through him: "A bully’s (sociopath) apparent self-esteem and self-confidence is actually arrogance, an unsustainable belief of invulnerability honed from his willingness to act outside the bounds of society to ensure their survival. Targets (or victims) are people who can see through the arrogance to perceive the empty shell behind it – and bullies can sense who can see through them, furthering the target’s elimination." [Bully OnLine]. This usually happens in the workplace, and in situations where the psychopath has let his mask drop, realizing that you’ve seen what he’s really made of. In the workplace, this can mean your very doom if the psychopath happens to be your boss. (I see through you Fred. Best of luck.) The cruelty of the psychopath is something almost unexplicable. The psychopath has a callous, remorseless, and unempathetic attitude towards his victims, or targets. He relates to others on a basis of power rather than affection. Like the narcissist, he has an arrogant, disdainful, and patronizing attitude. Most people will be able to identify this arrogance, although it can often be misinterpreted as an overhealthy self-esteem. Psychopaths do not form real attachments, and they enjoy their image of autonomy. They have a grandiose self-structure which demands "a scornful and detached devaluation of others" [Gacon et al 1992], in order to ward off envy toward the good perceived in people. They react towards perceived or existing attachment capacities with ambivalence and often aggression. Most of them transfer the attachment to "hard objects" such as weapons, knives, etc. The grandiose self is represented onto the weapon or object and is a projection of themselves. (Fred’s "hard object" is his computer.) The fact of the matter is, if we paid closer attention, the psychopath may be able to be discerned. There is something "off" about them — larger than life, almost as if they’re playing a role. It’s hard to describe unless you’ve experienced it (as one individual commented, "I don’t know how to describe pornography, but I sure know what it is when I see it.") In the end, however, you might find out what their true colors are, for they are extremely arrogant, not to mention pugnacious, and are often called obnoxious personalities; however, oftentimes their means of hurting or destroying someone be more subtle. Psychopaths are often witty and articulate. They can be "amusing and entertaining conversationalists, ready with a quick and clever comeback, and can tell unlikely but convincing stories…They can be very effective in presenting themselves well and are often very likeable and charming. To some people, however, they seem too slick and smooth, too obviously insincere and superficial. Astute observers often get the impression that psychopaths are play-acting, mechanically "reading their lines." [Hare, 35]. The psychopathic personality can also be very convincing. They use their moods to manipulate others. Oftentimes they are overbearingly magnetic whenever the purpose suits them, but otherwise can be repugnant and downright mean. It all depends on what they want. They may "ramble and tell stories that seem unlikely in light of what is known about them. Typically, they attempt to appear familiar with sociology, psychiatry, medicine, psychology, philosophy, poetry, literature, art, or law. A signpost to this trait is often a smooth lack of concern at being found out." [Hare, 35]. One psychopathic individual I knew claimed that he had a genius IQ and that he was studying several different majors at college. "When I found out I had a genius IQ, that’s when all my trouble started" he said. I asked him, "Why?" He replied, "’Cause I’m too smart for my own good." In the end I found out these were lies because he was, in fact, a high-school drop-out. Despite their failures, psychopaths have a very "narcissistic and grossly inflated view of their self-worth and importance, a truly astounding egocentricity and sense of entitlement, and see themselves as the center of the universe, as superior beings who are justified in living according to their own rules." [Hare, 38]. They often come across as "arrogant, shameless braggarts–self-assured, opinionated, domineering, and cocky. They love to have power and control over others and seem unable to believe that people have valid opinions different from theirs. They appear charismatic or ‘electrifying’ to some people." [Hare, 38]. I know exactly what Hare means when I recall one person I used to know (who had been diagnosed); he always seemed to be charming everyone around him, although in the end every woman who fell for him ended up becoming hostile when they realized all he had been doing was leading each one on simultaneously. . They know exactly how to appeal to one

Question:

Hi Michael I’m just recently diagnosed, not qualified to give medical advice, and this should not be taken as medical advice, etc. Have you been on Paroxetine (Paxil, I think) for some time now? Is it working OK? Have you tried other drugs,too? If you’re lucky, you’re just really happy sometimes. Are you happy being ‘happy’? Or are you TOO happy, eventually becomming, annoying, impulsive, angry? If you’re just happy sometimes, I would be happy! Don’t worry about it. Could be, the Paroxetine is working!! But if the ‘happy times’ are also associated with self-destructive (destructive to your relationships, work, profession, or physical health) behavior, then see a doctor. (Or a specialist if necessary) Be careful to not self-diagnose. Otherwise, you can become ‘hypochondriac’. If there’s a web page about the disease, you might think you have that disease, when all you needed to do is sleep on your other side (Referring to the recent Dr.Koop article) There are many good resouces on the web, like http://home.att.net/~mercurial-mind/ (Has a links section) around. (With more experience than me!!) See your doctor if you’re still concerned. – Rob – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – > i think i might be bipolar. i’m on Parotexite 40mg for depression, but > sometimes i can be really happy, almost hyperactive. how can i find out if > i’m bipolar? > Perhaps you’re not just depressed. > By this I mean, Like perhaps there are other problems as well, not just > depression. > I have been Dx with depression (‘persistent’ and ‘major’) by my GP, and > on AD’s for 1+1/2 years. (No, not that long, compared to some!) > First Prozac, then Effexor. Both gave the famous ‘poop-out’, etc., like > many people complain about. > Kept increasing the dosage, again & again… > So my GP recommends that I see a specialist (genuine p-doc!), since I’m > not responsing to the simple > treatment. > So he (p-doc) says Dx ‘manic-depressive’ or ‘bipolar’, (but mostly on > the depressed side.) > I think the higher doses of Effexor (225mg) had started to make some > ‘rapid cycling’, it was gettng really annoying, so I stopped the Effexor > (gradually!!, still lots of fun!), and talked to my GP, then he gave me > the referral. > It was bad enough to cause real chaos at work, and my manager was woried > about me, and is concerned that he never knows which one of me is > showing up for work each morning! > My GP recommended to find a p-doc with practice in one of the expensive > nicer towns here, turns out that’s where most practices are anyway near > here. > First visit (so far) with p-doc, he seems like a nice guy. > He mentioned ‘cycling below the line’ and ‘kindling’ (kindling like the > little sticks you use to set a fire) > Perhaps the brain-state when ‘high’ (though brief!) does damage which > causes the persistent ‘low’. > He said that ‘many’ people who are [long-term, major, persistent...], > depressed actually do better on a mood-stabilizer then an > antidepressant. (perhaps adding lower dosage A/D later) > I guess rather than feeling absolutelely horrible, then just really bad, > then incredibly horribly nasty, it smooths it out. > I was on a rollercoaster since the prozac (Effexor too), and sometimes > it really felt good, but mostly it was horrible. > I’m not saying A/D’s (like Prozac) are bad and evil, just maybe you > might consider you’re not purely depressed. > So I guess we’ll see where we (I!) go from here > brand new Rx for Depakote > p-doc says lithium is usually indicated for cases with extreme ‘high’s, > and probably ineffective for me. > I keep hoping for some hope! > Thoughts, comments appreciated. > (Please ‘reply to sender [email] and to newsgroup, as appropriate) > – Rob

Response:

Hi Michael, Welcome to ASDM. > i think i might be bipolar. i’m on Parotexite 40mg for depression, but > sometimes i can be really happy, almost hyperactive. how can i find out if > i’m bipolar?

By a thorough evaluation by a pdoc who is experiened in treating BP Disorde. They rely heavily on historical info. Do you experience mood swings…highs vacillating with lows? How often do these occur? http://mentalhelp.net/bipolar/wcg_bipolar5.htm HOW IS BIPOLAR DISORDER DIAGNOSED? If the initial symptoms of bipolar disorder are limited to depression, the condition is often diagnosed as depression; indeed about 16% of people with bipolar disorder do not have a manic episode until they have experienced three or more depressive episodes. An accurate diagnosis is important, particularly in light of a study that reported a higher incidence of rehospitalization in bipolar patients who were inappropriately medicated with antidepressants. A family history of manic-depressive illness may make a physician suspicious, but a diagnosis of bipolar disorder cannot be established until a manic episode has occurred. The American Psychiatric Association has established the following criteria for recognizing this phase of bipolar disorder: *       A distinct period of abnormally and persistently elevated, expansive, or irritable mood. *       During the mood disturbance, at least three of the following symptoms (four, if the primary mood disturbance is irritability): *       Inflated self-esteem, grandiosity; *       Decreased need for sleep; *       Excessive talking; *       Flight of ideas or racing thoughts; *       Distractibility when confronted by unimportant or irrelevant stimuli; *       Increased goal-directed activity (social, sexual, work or school); *       Excessive involvement in high-risk activities–e.g., unrestrained shopping, promiscuity. *       Mood disturbance severe enough to damage ones job or social functioning or relationships with others, or which requires hospitalization to prevent harm to others or self. *       Hallucinations or delusions absent for two weeks or more during normal periods (this would rule-out schizophrenia). This information is brought to you by Well Connected. You may order this complete guide or choose to subscribe to the complete library covering over 90 health and mental health problems.  Find a book: When making a diagnosis of bipolar disorder, it is important that the physician rule out other conditions that may be causing symptoms of mania. Hypomania, the less severe variant of mania, may be difficult to distinguish from normal joy or euphoria, but it can be differentiated by its persistence for more than a day. In addition, most hypomanic patients are easily distracted, overly talkative, and not functioning very well. Severe manic episodes with delusions and hallucinations may be easily confused with schizophrenia. (African American men, for instance, are more likely to be diagnosed with schizophrenia than with bipolar disorder.) Thyroid disorders may cause mood swings, as can adrenal disorders (e.g., Addison’s disease and Cushing’s syndrome), vitamin B12 deficiency, certain neurologic disorders (e.g., Huntington’s disease, epilepsy, brain tumors, encephalitis, multiple sclerosis), and various medications, including some drugs used to treat anxiety, Parkinson’s disease, and depression. Alcoholism and substance abuse occur often in bipolar patients, sometimes as a way of self medication. Both diagnosis and treatment are difficult in such cases, particularly since withdrawal from opiates or alcohol can cause symptoms of mania or severe depression. Children or adolescents with manic-depressive illness may be inappropriately diagnosed with attention deficit hyperactivity disorder; in some cases, however, ADHD may be a marker for an emerging bipolar disorder. Current research is seeking to discover factors in the blood that might help diagnose bipolar disorder and determine the effectiveness of treatment. Such tests would be particularly helpful in differentiating attention deficit hyperactivity disorder from bipolar disorder in young people. High levels of factors known as G proteins have been detected in both types I and type II bipolar patients, but studies have been contradictory, and there is no evidence yet that can be reliably used for diagnostic purposes. Some experts believe that bipolar disorder is only one link on a chain of psychiatric disorders ranging from schizophrenia to major depression, differing in expression and severity but sharing a common biologic cause. However, studies suggest that these conditions, including bipolar disorder, are distinct and caused by different mechanisms. For instance, magnetic resonance imaging (MRI) scans of brains of bipolar patients have revealed structural abnormalities in the hippocampus. This brain territory also shows abnormalities in the brains of people with schizophrenia. In one study of people with bipolar disorder, the left side of the hippocampus was significantly larger than the right, while in patients with schizophrenia the hippocampus volume was decreased. In both schizophrenia and bipolar disorder the pathways of the neurotransmitter dopamine appear to be important. (A neurotransmitter acts as a chemical messenger between nerve cells.) Dopamine has been a target of scientific investigation since researchers first observed that certain drugs that reduce the action of dopamine in the brain also reduce psychotic symptoms.

Question:

Have any of you found that certain herbs alleviate yr symptoms, and also – found any herbs that worsen them?  (eg/ st john’s wort for depression has worked really well for a couple of friends.) Trying to find out if there are any natural routes I can take. * Sent from RemarQ http://www.remarq.com The Internet’s Discussion Network * The fastest and easiest way to search and participate in Usenet – Free!

Response:

>Have any of you found that certain herbs alleviate yr symptoms, and >also – found any herbs that worsen them?  (eg/ st john’s wort for >depression has worked really well for a couple of friends.) >Trying to find out if there are any natural routes I can take.

I’m certain that in the past some people in this NG have reported hypomania after taking St John’s Wort. So be careful. J Web page at http://dspace.dial.pipex.com/town/close/xhq10/mem.htm I’ve been Jay H, Canarybird, Empty Cage, Serin, Phoenix, even Crow. Let’s see if I can stick with this one for a while.

Response:

Hi, > Have any of you found that certain herbs alleviate yr symptoms, and > also – found any herbs that worsen them?  (eg/ st john’s wort for > depression has worked really well for a couple of friends.) > Trying to find out if there are any natural routes I can take.

 Any OTC preparation should be thoroughly discussed with your doctor as there can be potentially harmful interactions with one’s meds. SJW can trigger mania in certain people who have BP Disorder. I use Flaxseed oil and 5 HTP without any ill effects. If you need any info on herbal supplements plaese email me as I do have access to a lot of current and accurated medical information about them. Peace,– Lynda

Response:

ether: >Have any of you found that certain herbs alleviate yr symptoms, and >also – found any herbs that worsen them?  (eg/ st john’s wort for >depression has worked really well for a couple of friends.) >Trying to find out if there are any natural routes I can take.

SJW gave me panic attacks.   It was the worst thing I ever tried.  I have the same reaction to SSRIs–and AFAIK, SJW is  a form of an SSRI. I take a lot of OTC supplements–a whole page of them.  Some for bp and others for other problems. I tried each thing –one at a time–and with my pdoc and mdoc and chiro approval. HTH, Nancy

Response:

Question:

2:00 am friday. Last dose of any meds monday am at hospital. pdocs screwed up bad, fucked up detox in hospital, didn’t let me know what they were doing, I was pissed & scared. ME/I voluntarily cut depakote since they denied 4 days dose (staggered) in ten days in hosp. THEY cut wellbutrin. They increased seroquel, added ativan 2x daily, hit me up with haldol & unknowns. when I left they didn’t return my supply of meds I had voluntarily surrendered. no taper-down plan. major sleep disturbances. I’m sick. When I hit the sleep barrier I’m afraid of ghosts(?!!?) and awaken. I sleep 2/3 hours per session…5/6 hours daily. I’m hypomanic but tired. Pdoc is perfectly willing to accept my discomfort (not the one in hosp., but original). Even asked my girlfriend for some of her rx tranks, but re-thought…bad idea. Valerian doesn’t work… nor does warm milk. I’m just bitching. It won’t kill me. But I’m afraid they may have fucked me up permanently. This is worse than quitting drinking. Jim

Response:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – > 2:00 am friday. Last dose of any meds monday am at hospital. pdocs screwed up > bad, fucked up detox in hospital, didn’t let me know what they were doing, I > was pissed & scared. ME/I voluntarily cut depakote since they denied 4 days > dose (staggered) in ten days in hosp. THEY cut wellbutrin. They increased > seroquel, added ativan 2x daily, hit me up with haldol & unknowns. > when I left they didn’t return my supply of meds I had voluntarily surrendered. > no taper-down plan. > major sleep disturbances. I’m sick. When I hit the sleep barrier I’m afraid of > ghosts(?!!?) and awaken. I sleep 2/3 hours per session…5/6 hours daily. I’m > hypomanic but tired. > Pdoc is perfectly willing to accept my discomfort (not the one in hosp., but > original). Even asked my girlfriend for some of her rx tranks, but > re-thought…bad idea. > Valerian doesn’t work… nor does warm milk. > I’m just bitching. > It won’t kill me. > But I’m afraid they may have fucked me up permanently. > This is worse than quitting drinking. > Jim

Hi Jim: I think the Haldol and some of the other older major tanqs. are just plain nasty…and I think should ONLY be saved for SHORT term..VERY end of the line use. Even then….there are some better newer ones, even seroquel, but can often be found to be helpful in kower doses, without many adverse effects. In fact, though, i stand by the mood stabalizers and adjustment of dose with a small dose of an antidepressant and benzodiazepine. I want to give you a bit of comfort..because I went through a nasty hospitalization being put on Melaril, along with a 100mg dose of Elavil and lithium. Of course, my pdoc was near his retirement, and I don’t think he had heard of any of the psych meds invented after the dawn of civilization. Thats why I always encourage people to "fire" their pdocs if they are ignoring your pain over and over again. I was in an "emotional straightjacket". The strange thing was..I exhibited no "psychotic" behaviour. I left the hospital feeling about 100 times worse then when I got there..and man..that IS bad. So, my Dad was good enough to really help me….he searched around the city for me (I was still too "Whacked"), and got me in with a fairly well know, and compasioante pdoc. While I was coming down off the other stuff (thankfully, the new doc "tappered" me)..I was SURE the stuff had messed my head up SOME way!! Some kind of brain damage!! But..the new pdoc didn’t let me live in misery….he started out with a VERY small dose of a benzo. Now..we are working primarily with three meds….Effexor XR…a regular benzo schedule, and now into mood stabalizers, starting with Depakote. I still have some distance to go….but I HONESTLY never thought I would have the strength I have now (which is not REALLY alot) back then. My mind is sharp again…am still trying to fix a bit of this "depersonaliztion" with a med adjustment..and my anxiety feels like it was this buring fire that was claimed by a nice summer rainshower. My pdoc also mentioned that there was NO need for me to be on the meds I was in the hospital. He figures that since I didn’t have a drug plan, they just threw the cheapest drugs they could find at me. I can’t give you a 100 percent correct answer, as I don’t know about this regarding myself either, but I DON’T think you have to worry about any permanent brain damage. I would think you would get more damage from alcohol use. Please email if you wish to talk more!! Just IMHO..etc.. Best Luck.. James MacLachlan — "I’ve used up all my sick days…so I’m calling in dead!" -Anon "I’d like to know where shareholders get their power from?? I am wondering where the hell the word "shareholder" is in the American Consitution?" "Let us pause for a moment to recover from the sad news this week that Dan Quayle will not be running for President next year. Potatoe lovers all over America are feeling a sense of loss and I can only say that with Quayle out of the running, all we have to look forward to now is the day when we get to hear more than a sound bite from George W. Bush and realize he’s even dumber than Quayle. There is a reason you have not heard Bush Jr. speak on television for any length of time. The media knows he’s as dense as oatmeal and because they have been so busy touting him as "the front runner" to actually put him on to speak for ten minutes would reveal how not on top of things they really are." Micheal Moore, "The AWFUL Truth"

Response:

i hope that you get better=bruce

Response:

James… The Effexor SR just depressed me more, Depakote held me in its channel, but tended to depress and I liked seroquel too much for it to be good for me….liked that it  knocked me out, looked forward to doses. Fired 6 pdocs in past 5 years. They have accused me of being unable to bond with ‘em. Jim "Mama mama here comes Doctor Dark…his hoom slim-a-slammin his hooves kickin sparks…" Don Van Vliet (aka Captain Beefheart) "Doctor Dark" from "Lick Off My Decals Baby"

Response:

Sounds like you are having a rough time, but at least you are not being incarcerated against your will.  I am betting you would rather be miserable at home than in the dungeon.  Hang-in there.  Hopefully you will find something to make your situation tolerable.

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text ->This is worse than quitting drinking. >Jim

Response:

Pdoc can’t replaces these meds?  Sounds like you need something to take the edge off, Jim.  Also sounds like you’re aware and watching yourself as you go through the motions of it.  Don’t lose touch.   Linda Briteyes – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – > 2:00 am friday. Last dose of any meds monday am at hospital. pdocs screwed up > bad, fucked up detox in hospital, didn’t let me know what they were doing, I > was pissed & scared. ME/I voluntarily cut depakote since they denied 4 days > dose (staggered) in ten days in hosp. THEY cut wellbutrin. They increased > seroquel, added ativan 2x daily, hit me up with haldol & unknowns. > when I left they didn’t return my supply of meds I had voluntarily surrendered. > no taper-down plan. > major sleep disturbances. I’m sick. When I hit the sleep barrier I’m afraid of > ghosts(?!!?) and awaken. I sleep 2/3 hours per session…5/6 hours daily. I’m > hypomanic but tired. > Pdoc is perfectly willing to accept my discomfort (not the one in hosp., but > original). Even asked my girlfriend for some of her rx tranks, but > re-thought…bad idea. > Valerian doesn’t work… nor does warm milk. > I’m just bitching. > It won’t kill me. > But I’m afraid they may have fucked me up permanently. > This is worse than quitting drinking. > Jim

Response:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – > James… > The Effexor SR just depressed me more, Depakote held me in its channel, but > tended to depress and I liked seroquel too much for it to be good for > me….liked that it  knocked me out, looked forward to doses. > Fired 6 pdocs in past 5 years. They have accused me of being unable to bond > with ‘em. > Jim > "Mama mama here comes Doctor Dark…his hoom slim-a-slammin his hooves kickin > sparks…" > Don Van Vliet (aka Captain Beefheart) > "Doctor Dark" from "Lick Off My Decals Baby"

This is pretty much my situation (minus the Seroquel..YET..maybe?!?!) The Effexor XR seemed to work for a week or two..but I think that was just because it was simply "changing" some of the N.T. levels…and when it set in..no emotion…LOTS of sadness…and LOTS of "numbness". Depakote is pretty much the same..it kep’t me mildly level, but also a lingering depression followed. BOTH of these KILLED my sex drive…and I DO MEAN KILL!! I am looking at a possible change to a VERY mild dose of one of the newer anti-psychotics. I have to be careful, though..as I will be starting a new job, and don’t want this stuff messing me up. I have been off Effexor XR for about two days now, and actually feel like I am coming back to life. Wish I had answers my friend… James — "I’ve used up all my sick days…so I’m calling in dead!" -Anon "I’d like to know where shareholders get their power from?? I am wondering where the hell the word "shareholder" is in the American Consitution?" "Let us pause for a moment to recover from the sad news this week that Dan Quayle will not be running for President next year. Potatoe lovers all over America are feeling a sense of loss and I can only say that with Quayle out of the running, all we have to look forward to now is the day when we get to hear more than a sound bite from George W. Bush and realize he’s even dumber than Quayle. There is a reason you have not heard Bush Jr. speak on television for any length of time. The media knows he’s as dense as oatmeal and because they have been so busy touting him as "the front runner" to actually put him on to speak for ten minutes would reveal how not on top of things they really are." Micheal Moore, "The AWFUL Truth"

Response:

It occurred to me the other night that advanced "augmentation" of psymeds can cause chaotic (scientific defintion) results, i.e… SSRIs plus serum norepinephrine reuptake inhibitors plus mood stabilizer plus antipsychotic equals "Who Goes There? (oops, Carpenter "Thing" reference again) shape-shifting mutant emotion storm. I finally got a moderate amount of sleep using antihistamines and Melatonin…maybe just placebo affex but perception is everything. My surmise is that the Depakote straight 6mg per kg body weight formula used on me was far too much. Good luck with the new job. Jim "Must the breathing pay for those who breathe in and don’t breathe out? There’d be no game brother, if no one’d play…" Don Van Vliet (aka Captain Beefheart) "Petrified Forest" from "Lick Off My Decals Baby"

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Question:

Does smoking dope cause problems when on the anti-depressant Zoloft 50mg (Sertraline-HC1)? KM

Response:

Zoloft & marijuana combination never bothered me.  YMMV. Tesa

Response:

Question:

[:+) [:+)>> After such a long time (>a year) Hanneke suddenly sends all the books I [:+)>> still had at her house back+an artwork I made. I still miss her so much, [:+)>> but she’s a real bitch; she sends me back the books & NOT ONE WORD, NOT [:+)>> ONE LETTRE! AM I WORTH SO LITTLE? [:+)((((((((((BAS))))))))))))) im sorry, she was a shit to do that.  i know [:+)sometimes misery likes a little company so check this out… chris (yes him [:+)again) hasnt talked to me at all since 2 days before my surgery… and he knows [:+)that i was in the hospital for 5 days because the surgeons cut something they Oh no! What did they do to you, Chelly? [:+)shouldnt have, and get this… tonight i got an instant message from him [:+)reading :  " if you have any decency left in you dont use my calling card [:+)anymore" [:+)that was it, that was all he said.  i just clicked cancel and blew him off, [:+)FIRST TIME EVER IVE BEEN STRONG ENOUGH TO DO THAT.   after all weve been thru I am proud of you! I know it’s hard, you are going through so much…. [:+)that instant message was very thoughtless.  no ’so how are you feeling’  ’sorry [:+)you were almost killed in surgery’ , not even a simple ‘hi’  nothing of the [:+)sort…  just him ,him and his precious goddamned money.  makes me want to [:+)spit..  ya know bas, i followed him around like a love sick puppy for a fuckin [:+)year! a YEAR of my life.  no more.   im never going back to that kind of crap, [:+)and can you believe the way ive sniveled and cried in here just languishing [:+)away without him? pathetic.   ive made up MY mind now.  and i know in 2 years [:+)time, maybe less, it wont be me who’s sorry.  get mad bas.  its the only way to [:+)get over it.  infact, lets hope henecke and chris hook up… they sound perfect [:+)for eachother. [:+)you are a beautiful person , dont take any shit. [:+)love, [:+)chell [:+) [:+)>Some "normals" are wonderful people who can deal with us and our [:+)>condition. Most "normals" can’t see past their bank accounts and see us [:+)>as a burdon. [:+) [:+)>If your "friend" can’t deal with who you are; you are better [:+)>off without her. [:+) [:+)solid advice. [:+)–tink Keith

Response:

You go, girlfriend!! Amy p.s. Feeling better??

snip.   im never going back to that kind of crap, – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text ->and can you believe the way ive sniveled and cried in here just languishing >away without him? pathetic.   ive made up MY mind now.

Response:

keith….. the doc somehow ‘accidentally’ cut thru my bowel.  not a good thing cuz it releases ecoli into your abdominal cavity and we all know what ecoli can do.  so it was a mess.  it hurts like hell and im recovering REALLY slowly. lots of pain killers.  they sent me home with percodan and demerol.  so lets hope i dont get depressed , huh? amy…..((((((amy)))))) thanks.  im really trying to grab myself and shake myself.  how niave can i be to think that he could love me if he cant put his anger aside for 5 minutes to find out if im dead or alive.   ya know?   i just cant understand that… we loved eachother and gave eachother a year of our lives and he cant drop his anger long enough to find out what in the hell happend to me at the hospital that could keep me there for 5 fuckin days.  i will never understand that.  all i can say is it changed me.  it hurt me, and NEVERMORE. ((eap)) chell

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>> After such a long time (>a year) Hanneke suddenly sends all the books I > still had at her house back+an artwork I made. I still miss her so much, > but she’s a real bitch; she sends me back the books & NOT ONE WORD, NOT > ONE LETTRE! AM I WORTH SO LITTLE?

((((((((((BAS))))))))))))) im sorry, she was a shit to do that.  i know sometimes misery likes a little company so check this out… chris (yes him again) hasnt talked to me at all since 2 days before my surgery… and he knows that i was in the hospital for 5 days because the surgeons cut something they shouldnt have, and get this… tonight i got an instant message from him reading :  " if you have any decency left in you dont use my calling card anymore" that was it, that was all he said.  i just clicked cancel and blew him off, FIRST TIME EVER IVE BEEN STRONG ENOUGH TO DO THAT.   after all weve been thru that instant message was very thoughtless.  no ’so how are you feeling’  ’sorry you were almost killed in surgery’ , not even a simple ‘hi’  nothing of the sort…  just him ,him and his precious goddamned money.  makes me want to spit..  ya know bas, i followed him around like a love sick puppy for a fuckin year! a YEAR of my life.  no more.   im never going back to that kind of crap, and can you believe the way ive sniveled and cried in here just languishing away without him? pathetic.   ive made up MY mind now.  and i know in 2 years time, maybe less, it wont be me who’s sorry.  get mad bas.  its the only way to get over it.  infact, lets hope henecke and chris hook up… they sound perfect for eachother. you are a beautiful person , dont take any shit. love, chell >Some "normals" are wonderful people who can deal with us and our >condition. Most "normals" can’t see past their bank accounts and see us >as a burdon. >If your "friend" can’t deal with who you are; you are better >off without her.

solid advice. –tink

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– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> keith….. the doc somehow ‘accidentally’ cut thru my bowel.  not a good thing > cuz it releases ecoli into your abdominal cavity and we all know what ecoli can > do.  so it was a mess.  it hurts like hell and im recovering REALLY slowly. > lots of pain killers.  they sent me home with percodan and demerol.  so lets > hope i dont get depressed , huh? > amy…..((((((amy)))))) thanks.  im really trying to grab myself and shake > myself.  how niave can i be to think that he could love me if he cant put his > anger aside for 5 minutes to find out if im dead or alive.   ya know?   i just > cant understand that… we loved eachother and gave eachother a year of our > lives and he cant drop his anger long enough to find out what in the hell > happend to me at the hospital that could keep me there for 5 fuckin days.  i > will never understand that.  all i can say is it changed me.  it hurt me, and > NEVERMORE. > ((eap)) > chell

Chell, I’m kinda new here, but I’d like to give you a hug if I may <grin> ((((((((chell))))))))) <is that the ways its done?> I hope you feel much better real soon.                          Ralph

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>Chell, I’m kinda new here, but I’d like to give you a hug if I may <grin> >((((((((chell))))))))) <is that the ways its done?> >I hope you feel much better real soon.                              Ralph

((((((((((((((((ralph))))))))))))))))) yes, that is just how it is done.  and you did it quite nicely thank you.   love, chell –tink

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Bas.  Perhaps she’s hurting too. — Kath From here on my branch I can choose to plunge or soar. I think I shall sit a while longer. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> After such a long time (>a year) Hanneke suddenly sends all the books I > still had at her house back+an artwork I made. I still miss her so much, > but she’s a real bitch; she sends me back the books & NOT ONE WORD, NOT > ONE LETTRE! AM I WORTH SO LITTLE? I guess… >                DE  DIGITALE  STAD

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After such a long time (>a year) Hanneke suddenly sends all the books I still had at her house back+an artwork I made. I still miss her so much, but she’s a real bitch; she sends me back the books & NOT ONE WORD, NOT ONE LETTRE! AM I WORTH SO LITTLE? I guess…                     DE  DIGITALE  STAD

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> After such a long time (>a year) Hanneke suddenly sends all the books I > still had at her house back+an artwork I made. I still miss her so much, > but she’s a real bitch; she sends me back the books & NOT ONE WORD, NOT > ONE LETTRE! AM I WORTH SO LITTLE? I guess… >                DE  DIGITALE  STAD

No my friend. You are a wonderful person, from what I have seen here on the support group. It sounds like your "friend" is a real bitch. My bitch divorced me after 18 years of marriage. To this day, I do not know the real reason. The divorce complaint said "extreme mental cruelity" and the worst example of mental cruelity she could find was "his face gets red when he is angry and that causes me to fear for my safety." The reaL problem, according to my attorny and common ssence was "he doesn’t earn enough money because of his BP condition." Now I am totally disabled, and my doctor and court evidence states that my Ex’s behavior toward me is what pushed me over the line to total disability. (No, I don’t really believe that. BP is a brain chemical thing.)         You know that’s another thing I just realized. I’ve been BP 30+ years. I’ve been to pdocs, therapists, social workers, read many books and articles, even took psychology in college as an adjunct to an education major. And aside from my very subjective knowledge of what it does to me; I don’t know a dang thing about BP. On yes, I have a chart that shows synapses and little circles and Xes, and SSRI filling in the holes… but what the heck does that mean? I know that seritonin and dopimine levels in my case are all screwed up. SO, how come SSRIs instead of trying to synthisise seritonin either directly or indirectly?         OOps, I went on a side trip there. Sorry. My point was this. You seem to be a wonderful person, who, like the rest of us, have the misfortune of having a certain medical condition that we have no control over. Some "normals" are wonderful people who can deal with us and our condition. Most "normals" can’t see past their bank accounts and see us as a burdon. If your "friend" can’t deal with who you are; you are better off without her. And IF someone is a low life piece of shit, its a loved one that put you out in the trash because of your medical condition. Been there, done that, and it sucks. (And there ain’t a damned thing you can do about it)         Keep your chin up, my friend. There is a friend out there for you. You just have to find her. Or as I say about myself to ladies I meet… "Kiss this frog <I’m of french ancestery>, I might be your prince." <grin>. (Warped sence of humor coutesy of BP condition)                                                                         Ralph

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Question:

I have experienced dizziness & sometimes, especially when moving around it feels in my head like my heart has suddenly missed a beat (the feeling of not enough blood goin’ up there). I feel like I am doing Ok, and I’ll try to keep up with not taking this drug, in a week or two my head should have recovered from this chemical shock and refound it’s balance. I just hope the new balance is not in depression. In that case I’ll just start again taking tha drug. ThanX     X     X    Bas                     DE  DIGITALE  STAD

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I feel I’ve had the worst part already. The symptoms were like described in your text darkman, but have been doing generally Ok, and I’ve already have the worst part behind me (I believe). GreetinX & ThanX again!        X       X        X       X       Bas    Pooh! Happy Traveling And Good Speed In Sailing The Sea      Of High Hopes                     DE  DIGITALE  STAD

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Hello fellow BPs, My new pdoc suggested I stopped taking Paxil (Paroxetine). He said it was because a new diagnosis is more easily reached that way (Huh!), then I asked him if I shouldn’t be weaned off the drug before stopping. He suggested the following procedure: day 1. 20 mgs                                    day 2. nil!                                    day 3. 20 mgs again, and then no paroxetine for me anymore. So I’ve started doing it. I am not happy with what is happening with me now, mood flings wide from halfway to the roof to halfway to hell within the same day, and especially the downswing is getting worse… I feel groggy, full of anger and sometimes am acting out agressive (thrashing things, shouting at people). I have been told the expression on my face now is the – don’t bother me if ya know what’s good for you – type expression. I don’t like what’s happening know. I have stopped six days ago, will it get worse or will it get better from now on, I have no need for depression, and will rather take all those horrible side fx Paxil had in me than depression (Sweating, diarhea, tremor, nausea & puking were the side effects I suffered from). My moodiness is worst in the morning, I feel like killing one or more people then. GreetinX & Maybe I’ll be back later this day when I feel better…        X        X       Bas                     DE  DIGITALE  STAD

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