SSRIs

Question:

[I tried posting this to alt.support.depression.manic.moderated, but my news server seems to have dropped that group.] This may seem like a foolish question to some of you.  You may not understand it.  Anyway, I’m looking for some advice or suggestions.   I was diagnosed with bipolar mood disorder around two years ago.  I am in my early thirties and have had problems with this, not knowing what it was , since my late teen years.  I have sought medical attention twice for things related to these problems but was never diagnosed with bi-polar mood disorder.  Once was after a trip overseas where I had some difficulties and sought help when I got back to the states. Everything was OK by then.  The other time was after a motorcycle accident in which I had received some minor injuries. I typically perform OK in life.  I only become a real basket case after long periods with little or no sleep.  I have never had problems with violence outside of personal relationships; but I have on occasion, in the past, had problems with minor violence in my personal relationships. My temper has, in the past, gotten  out of hand.  This is no longer a problem for me.   I have suffered from paranoid delusions and delusions of grandeur. I have done a good job of hiding my positive delusions, and to a lessor extent, the negative delusions.  The paranoid delusions have taken the form of being spied upon by neighbors or co-workers, being followed by the police or people from my office.  I have been convinced, or nearly so, that people were conspiring against me on several occassions. The positive delusions have usually been related to how other people view me.  I have believed that others thought I might be psychic, or of super human intelligence, or particularly perceptive, or just incredibly lucky.  I would sometimes wonder if these perceptions held by others were true.  I was never convinced myself, but I would notice the evidence.  Of course others didn’t really have these perceptions. I have never shared the positive delusions that I have with anyone, not even my shrink.  I find this to be the most embarrassing part of it all, if also the easiest to hide.  I could not help but discuss my paranoia. It has been difficult to hide and, I suppose, the biggest part of the problem. I have never tried to commit suicide.  I think about it a lot but I’m scared of being dead.  The process doesn’t bother me, but not being scares me more than any horror that I might experience.  I have put a loaded gun in my mouth (years ago), but I was unable to pull the trigger. I have behaved in ways that were intended to put my life in jeopardy (including another motorcycle accident).  What I found was that most people are scared of things they need not be.  This also hasn’t happened in quite a few years. I’m married and I have a child.  I have a decent job.  I’m taking 1000mg of depakote a day and I don’t have many of the problems I used to. Any problems I have are short lived and not severe.  Depression is still a battle on occasion.  I don’t have delusions; I do, on occasion, get a bit paranoid.  The paranoia is a big hint I need some sleep.  I take some sleeping pills on occasion when I need them… and I have access to an anti-depressant, but I haven’t needed it in a while.  I don’t really buy into the whole disease model but I believe that depakote has been of help to me.  My wife believes so too.  So do those of my friends that would have something to compare to.   Here is the problem.  I will not give up my guns.  I have always behaved responsibly with them even when I’m at my worst.  When I’m manic they don’t hold much interest for me; when I’m depressed I wouldn’t have much interest in using them on anyone else.  I honestly don’t see suicide as much of a risk anymore.  I believe that I have a right to defend myself and my family.  I know what people are capable of and I don’t want to ever be in the position of counting on someone else to watch out for me. This just isn’t an option. I have been paying my psychiatrist in cash since I’ve been able to afford it (I’m back in the working world).  I’ve been paying for my drugs in cash.  I have never been committed or ruled incompetent and I am not.   Recently there has been some debate over whether or not mental health record checks should be allowed before someone can possess a gun.  I am beginning to feel that continuing my treatment would be foolish if I am not willing to sacrifice my rights at a later date.  I can get by without my medication, but my life is more difficult and my income will probably be significantly reduced.  My wife would support me in this decision assuming we had some ground rules in place beforehand.  I think that I could still be a good father.  There would be times that I would fail. I would much prefer another option. Anyway, the questions: 1) Is there a way to get depakote without going through a psychiatrist? Can I buy it in Mexico or somewhere else overseas?   2) If a law is passed in the future could it open up my past medical records or would it only apply to future medical records (in the same sense as ex-post-facto laws are unconstitutional)? 3) How much privacy do I currently have at my pharmacy? at my psychiatrist? 4) Are there other treatments that I might be able to use without the assistance of a psychiatrist if I choose to avoid an official diagnosis? 5) Is there some other way to continue my treatment while making sure that I am not punished for it in the future?   Thanks, — Atlantic ExPat

Response:

I thought of buying the drugs in Mexico when my doctor didn’t move fast enough, but then I realized that lithium and depakote require doctor’s tests to determine just how much treatment I’m actually getting…About your medical and psychiatric records, no one will ever be allowed to open them without your permission.  There are federal laws against that.  So you can be relieved about that.  Also, the psychiatrists themselves are bound by law not to reveal psychiatric information or they would be disbarred and could be sued….I would suggest that you keep going to the doctor  and keep working with the Depakote.  I was always told that  Depakote had more anti-manic properties than antidepressant properties, but I’m not sure that is accurate.  Perhaps you could ask your doctor to prescribe an antidepressant in addition.  They usually start with SSRIs, which have the least side-effects.  But your medical conditions might require some other drug.  Keep writing to this newsgroup and we can support you and you can support us. * Sent from AltaVista http://www.altavista.com Where you can also find related Web Pages, Images, Audios, Videos, News, and Shopping.  Smart is Beautiful

Response:

Frog, can you not register the guns in your wife’s name and you stay on the Depakote? Heidi

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> [I tried posting this to alt.support.depression.manic.moderated, but my > news server seems to have dropped that group.] > This may seem like a foolish question to some of you.  You may not > understand it.  Anyway, I’m looking for some advice or suggestions. > I was diagnosed with bipolar mood disorder around two years ago.  I am > in my early thirties and have had problems with this, not knowing what > it was , since my late teen years.  I have sought medical attention > twice for things related to these problems but was never diagnosed > with bi-polar mood disorder.  Once was after a trip overseas where I > had some difficulties and sought help when I got back to the states. > Everything was OK by then.  The other time was after a motorcycle accident > in which I had received some minor injuries. > I typically perform OK in life.  I only become a real basket case after > long periods with little or no sleep.  I have never had problems with > violence outside of personal relationships; but I have on occasion, in > the past, had problems with minor violence in my personal relationships. > My temper has, in the past, gotten  out of hand.  This is no longer a > problem for me. > I have suffered from paranoid delusions and delusions of grandeur. > I have done a good job of hiding my positive delusions, and to a lessor > extent, the negative delusions.  The paranoid delusions have taken the > form of being spied upon by neighbors or co-workers, being followed by > the police or people from my office.  I have been convinced, or nearly > so, that people were conspiring against me on several occassions. > The positive delusions have usually been related to how other people > view me.  I have believed that others thought I might be psychic, > or of super human intelligence, or particularly perceptive, or just > incredibly lucky.  I would sometimes wonder if these perceptions held > by others were true.  I was never convinced myself, but I would notice > the evidence.  Of course others didn’t really have these perceptions. > I have never shared the positive delusions that I have with anyone, not > even my shrink.  I find this to be the most embarrassing part of it all, > if also the easiest to hide.  I could not help but discuss my paranoia. > It has been difficult to hide and, I suppose, the biggest part of the > problem. > I have never tried to commit suicide.  I think about it a lot but I’m > scared of being dead.  The process doesn’t bother me, but not being > scares me more than any horror that I might experience.  I have put a > loaded gun in my mouth (years ago), but I was unable to pull the trigger. > I have behaved in ways that were intended to put my life in jeopardy > (including another motorcycle accident).  What I found was that most > people are scared of things they need not be.  This also hasn’t happened > in quite a few years. > I’m married and I have a child.  I have a decent job.  I’m taking > 1000mg of depakote a day and I don’t have many of the problems I used to. > Any problems I have are short lived and not severe.  Depression is still > a battle on occasion.  I don’t have delusions; I do, on occasion, get a > bit paranoid.  The paranoia is a big hint I need some sleep.  I take some > sleeping pills on occasion when I need them… and I have access to an > anti-depressant, but I haven’t needed it in a while.  I don’t really buy > into the whole disease model but I believe that depakote has been of help > to me.  My wife believes so too.  So do those of my friends that would > have something to compare to. > Here is the problem.  I will not give up my guns.  I have always behaved > responsibly with them even when I’m at my worst.  When I’m manic they > don’t hold much interest for me; when I’m depressed I wouldn’t have much > interest in using them on anyone else.  I honestly don’t see suicide as > much of a risk anymore.  I believe that I have a right to defend myself > and my family.  I know what people are capable of and I don’t want to > ever be in the position of counting on someone else to watch out for me. > This just isn’t an option. > I have been paying my psychiatrist in cash since I’ve been able to > afford it (I’m back in the working world).  I’ve been paying for my > drugs in cash.  I have never been committed or ruled incompetent and I > am not. > Recently there has been some debate over whether or not mental health > record checks should be allowed before someone can possess a gun.  I am > beginning to feel that continuing my treatment would be foolish if I am > not willing to sacrifice my rights at a later date.  I can get by without > my medication, but my life is more difficult and my income will probably > be significantly reduced.  My wife would support me in this decision > assuming we had some ground rules in place beforehand.  I think that I > could still be a good father.  There would be times that I would fail. > I would much prefer another option. > Anyway, the questions: > 1) Is there a way to get depakote without going through a psychiatrist? > Can I buy it in Mexico or somewhere else overseas? > 2) If a law is passed in the future could it open up my past medical > records or would it only apply to future medical records (in the same > sense as ex-post-facto laws are unconstitutional)? > 3) How much privacy do I currently have at my pharmacy? at my > psychiatrist? > 4) Are there other treatments that I might be able to use without the > assistance of a psychiatrist if I choose to avoid an official diagnosis? > 5) Is there some other way to continue my treatment while making sure > that I am not punished for it in the future? > Thanks, > — > Atlantic ExPat

Response:

You were fortunate to get through to your early thirties before being affected by facets of bi-polar disorder. Untreated or inappropriately treated it only get worse as one gets older. Appropriately treated the symptoms are alleviated, but the disorder remains. You recognise lack of sleep as leading to your being a basket case. You have with-held information about your delusions from your pdoc. Had you told your pdoc you may have been prescribed a very light dose of anti-psychotic (such as Melleril) which I know from experience even a 25mg dose is enough to break the beginnings of a sleep deprivation cycle and shoo away delusionality. What do you call ‘minor violence’ in personal relationships? Any other party been physically hurt? Bruised? Skin or bones broken? Your problem ; You will not give up your guns. You need them for self-defence? Who is going to defend themselves against you if you discontinue treatment? What guarantee do you have that black market drugs are what they say they are? If you are prepared to bypass the system and/or break the laws of your own country then you show you are not likely to be a person sufficiently responsible to own firearms. Your privacy ends with your death : for instance if you are killed – accidentally eg motorcycle accident or you die as a result of any form of drug misuse or abuse then your psychiatrist and pharmacist are free to provide the Courts with details of the treatment you had received. As for retrospectivity of legislation : any current medical record is precisely that – a current medical record and therefore subject to hypothetical scrutiny. The record you had with a pdoc prior to the legislation and before establishing a current record would remain closed. Some cultural differences ? Why the need for privacy? Here in OZ I have a Social Security Number which, when entered on my prescription, entitles me to my medication at a very affordable rate. The script also has the doctor’s Provider Number on it. The centralised computing system is able to monitor the behaviour of patients who doctor shop for medications and doctors who over-service patients. Both aspects aim at preventing as far as possible abuses of the system. Also pharmacists maintain a central system for stocking and ordering. I can go to any pharmacist and they can look up the meds prescribed at an earlier date. This is handy if one is moving around. The system is there for the benefit of all those persons not trying to screw it. Another cultural difference? This passion for guns. We had the big debate here after Martin Bryant went berserk at Port Arthur. Nonsense about ‘national defence’ falls in a heap with the logistical nightmare of maintaining supplies of ammunition – without which any gun is as impotent as many women suspect the owners to be. Anyone who thinks they need a gun to cope with their problems has got even greater problems. Unless you are in a trade requiring the permanent disposal of living things then you create the problem you have a gun to solve. You carry fear of what other people will do and thus generate in others fear of what you may do. Ask yourself this : If, hypothetically, I could stand next to someone and <<hear>> them thinking and that person was thinking thoughts very similar to the things I think, how comfortable would I be knowing that (a) this person has a short fuse under some circumstances and (b) this person owns weaponry (c) this person would rather damage his health rather than surrender his weaponry (d) this person thinks that by paying cash he is protected? If it is the case that asdmm bounced this post, I would understand it entirely. — Isabel 90% of being smart  is knowing what  you’re dumb at

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text –

Response:

This would have to be one of the most irresponsible suggestions I have ever seen. — Isabel 90% of being smart  is knowing what  you’re dumb at

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> Frog, can you not register the guns in your wife’s name and you stay on the > Depakote? > Heidi > [I tried posting this to alt.support.depression.manic.moderated, but my > news server seems to have dropped that group.] > This may seem like a foolish question to some of you.  You may not > understand it.  Anyway, I’m looking for some advice or suggestions. > I was diagnosed with bipolar mood disorder around two years ago.  I am > in my early thirties and have had problems with this, not knowing what > it was , since my late teen years.  I have sought medical attention > twice for things related to these problems but was never diagnosed > with bi-polar mood disorder.  Once was after a trip overseas where I > had some difficulties and sought help when I got back to the states. > Everything was OK by then.  The other time was after a motorcycle accident > in which I had received some minor injuries. > I typically perform OK in life.  I only become a real basket case after > long periods with little or no sleep.  I have never had problems with > violence outside of personal relationships; but I have on occasion, in > the past, had problems with minor violence in my personal relationships. > My temper has, in the past, gotten  out of hand.  This is no longer a > problem for me. > I have suffered from paranoid delusions and delusions of grandeur. > I have done a good job of hiding my positive delusions, and to a lessor > extent, the negative delusions.  The paranoid delusions have taken the > form of being spied upon by neighbors or co-workers, being followed by > the police or people from my office.  I have been convinced, or nearly > so, that people were conspiring against me on several occassions. > The positive delusions have usually been related to how other people > view me.  I have believed that others thought I might be psychic, > or of super human intelligence, or particularly perceptive, or just > incredibly lucky.  I would sometimes wonder if these perceptions held > by others were true.  I was never convinced myself, but I would notice > the evidence.  Of course others didn’t really have these perceptions. > I have never shared the positive delusions that I have with anyone, not > even my shrink.  I find this to be the most embarrassing part of it all, > if also the easiest to hide.  I could not help but discuss my paranoia. > It has been difficult to hide and, I suppose, the biggest part of the > problem. > I have never tried to commit suicide.  I think about it a lot but I’m > scared of being dead.  The process doesn’t bother me, but not being > scares me more than any horror that I might experience.  I have put a > loaded gun in my mouth (years ago), but I was unable to pull the trigger. > I have behaved in ways that were intended to put my life in jeopardy > (including another motorcycle accident).  What I found was that most > people are scared of things they need not be.  This also hasn’t happened > in quite a few years. > I’m married and I have a child.  I have a decent job.  I’m taking > 1000mg of depakote a day and I don’t have many of the problems I used to. > Any problems I have are short lived and not severe.  Depression is still > a battle on occasion.  I don’t have delusions; I do, on occasion, get a > bit paranoid.  The paranoia is a big hint I need some sleep.  I take some > sleeping pills on occasion when I need them… and I have access to an > anti-depressant, but I haven’t needed it in a while.  I don’t really buy > into the whole disease model but I believe that depakote has been of help > to me.  My wife believes so too.  So do those of my friends that would > have something to compare to. > Here is the problem.  I will not give up my guns.  I have always behaved > responsibly with them even when I’m at my worst.  When I’m manic they > don’t hold much interest for me; when I’m depressed I wouldn’t have much > interest in using them on anyone else.  I honestly don’t see suicide as > much of a risk anymore.  I believe that I have a right to defend myself > and my family.  I know what people are capable of and I don’t want to > ever be in the position of counting on someone else to watch out for me. > This just isn’t an option. > I have been paying my psychiatrist in cash since I’ve been able to > afford it (I’m back in the working world).  I’ve been paying for my > drugs in cash.  I have never been committed or ruled incompetent and I > am not. > Recently there has been some debate over whether or not mental health > record checks should be allowed before someone can possess a gun.  I am > beginning to feel that continuing my treatment would be foolish if I am > not willing to sacrifice my rights at a later date.  I can get by without > my medication, but my life is more difficult and my income will probably > be significantly reduced.  My wife would support me in this decision > assuming we had some ground rules in place beforehand.  I think that I > could still be a good father.  There would be times that I would fail. > I would much prefer another option. > Anyway, the questions: > 1) Is there a way to get depakote without going through a psychiatrist? > Can I buy it in Mexico or somewhere else overseas? > 2) If a law is passed in the future could it open up my past medical > records or would it only apply to future medical records (in the same > sense as ex-post-facto laws are unconstitutional)? > 3) How much privacy do I currently have at my pharmacy? at my > psychiatrist? > 4) Are there other treatments that I might be able to use without the > assistance of a psychiatrist if I choose to avoid an official diagnosis? > 5) Is there some other way to continue my treatment while making sure > that I am not punished for it in the future? > Thanks, > — > Atlantic ExPat

Response:

> You were fortunate to get through to your early thirties before being > affected by facets of bi-polar disorder. Untreated or inappropriately > treated it only get worse as one gets older. Appropriately treated the > symptoms are alleviated, but the disorder remains.

Actually, I didn’t say I got through to my thirties without symptoms, just that I wasn’t diagnosed.   > You recognise lack of sleep as leading to your being a basket case. You > have with-held information about your delusions from your pdoc. Had

What I discuss with my doctor is, of course, within my discretion. > you told your pdoc you may have been prescribed a very light dose of > anti-psychotic (such as Melleril) which I know from experience even a > 25mg dose is enough to break the beginnings of a sleep deprivation cycle > and shoo away delusionality.

I have used an anti-psychotic once before when things were bad, but I was not pleased with its effects.  I said that I became delusional when things got particularly bad… normally I’m just fine.  It has probably been a few years since things were really this bad. > What do you call ‘minor violence’ in personal relationships? Any other > party been physically hurt? Bruised? Skin or bones broken?

I have had fights with two previous girlfriends that went farther than I think they should have on more than one occasion.  Once there was some bruising.  This was several years ago and will not be repeated.  One of the things I think depakote has really helped me with is this aspect of my life. > Your problem ; You will not give up your guns. You need them for > self-defence? Who is going to defend themselves against you if you > discontinue treatment?

I have been a gun owner all my life and only been under treatment for the last two years.  No one has ever had to defend themselves against me.  Whether I need them isn’t really up for debate. > What guarantee do you have that black market drugs are what they say > they are?  If you are prepared to bypass the system and/or break the > laws of your own country then you show you are not likely to be a person > sufficiently responsible to own firearms.

Lets just say I disagree.  I don’t feel obligated to obey the laws of my country.  I feel obligated to do what is right.  My country has no right to my medical history, nor does it have any right to regulate what I put into my body.  I have never behaved in any way that should cause me to have to forfeit my right to self defense.  Your judgment of how responsible I am with firearms is without merit and was not solicited.   > Your privacy ends with your death : for instance if you are killed – > accidentally eg motorcycle accident or you die as a result of any form > of drug misuse or abuse then your psychiatrist and pharmacist are free > to provide the Courts with details of the treatment you had received. > As for retrospectivity of legislation : any current medical record > is precisely that – a current medical record and therefore subject > to hypothetical scrutiny. The record you had with a pdoc prior to the > legislation and before establishing a current record would remain closed.

I assume this is in Australia.  Does anyone have information on this in the United States? > Some cultural differences ? Why the need for privacy? Here in OZ I have a

[Snip] It is very important to some of us… although your system has advantages too.. > Another cultural difference? This passion for guns. We had the big debate

[Snip] This is really the wrong forum for a debate about gun control.  I obviously disagree with you.   > than surrender his weaponry (d) this person thinks that by paying cash > he is protected?

Actually in the US, it is far more likely that the federal government will get access to insurance records than it is that the federal government will get access to the records of individual doctors.  I guess this is also a cultural difference. > If it is the case that asdmm bounced this post, I would understand > it entirely.

I would too.  I wasn’t looking for a large majority of posters to agree with me.  I was looking for information.  One would think that Usenet would be one of the few places that one could ask questions about topics that make people uncomfortable.  If you believe that I’m the only person reading this group that owns guns, you are probably not being honest with yourself.   Just because someone has placed you in a given section of the DSM IV doesn’t mean that somehow you fit the stereotype that goes with that slot. I have problems.  These drugs help.  I have some problems that aren’t explained by the DSM, as we all do.  I also have some positive qualities that don’t fit in well with these stereotypes.   I do appreciate your response. Thanks, — Atlantic ExPat

Response:

I have to say I agree with you.  I couldn’t have put it better myself.. Except I’d have been far more nasty.

<snip>

Response:

> Here is the problem.  I will not give up my guns.

I won’t give mine up either even though I’m living in a much safer city than I originally was. I’m also keeping them as a backup suicide plan. > I believe that I have a right to defend myself and my family.

Yep. > I know  what people are capable of

I’ve seen what people are capable of. > and I don’t want  to ever be in the position of counting on someone else > to watch out for me.

Good idea because they likely won’t. At least that’s been my experience with police forces. > Recently there has been some debate over whether or not mental health > record checks should be allowed before someone can possess a gun.

I believe that is for people who are going to *purchase* a gun and not for people who already have guns. It’s a  debate because while you may be mentally ill and yet responsible with your guns, someone with the same diagnosis may not be. We all know that mentally ill people are no more prone to violence than the general population, so why should we be subject to special checks when purchasing or even owning a gun? > I am beginning to feel that continuing my treatment would be foolish if > I am not willing to sacrifice my rights at a later date.

I think not continuing your treatment would be a bigger mistake. Laws are always changing for all of us, there’s  no reason for you to give up medical treatment on the basis that there *might* be some problem with keeping your guns in the future. > 1) Is there a way to get depakote without going through a psychiatrist?

Yes, anyone who is a medical doctor can prescribe it. > Can I buy it in Mexico or somewhere else overseas?  

Probably, but I don’t know. My advice would be that you don’t do anything illegal. > 2) If a law is passed in the future could it open up my past medical > records or would it only apply to future medical records (in the same > sense as ex-post-facto laws are unconstitutional)?

Any kind of law *could* be passed but that doesn’t mean it will be. For now, medical records are private.  Period (at least in the state I live in) > 3) How much privacy do I currently have at my pharmacy? at my > psychiatrist?

I doubt either would give out info about you unless served with something from a court of law. I think it would  even be illegal for them to do so otherwise. > 4) Are there other treatments that I might be able to use without the > assistance of a psychiatrist if I choose to avoid an official diagnosis?

It sounds like you already have an official diagnosis. > 5) Is there some other way to continue my treatment while making sure > that I am not punished for it in the future?  

I would say just continue your treatment as you are and continue to vote and write to your congressmen when you  think something is wrong about what they are doing. Keep your guns if you want and get on with your life. If some law comes up that questions whether you can keep them then deal with that then because right now there is no such law (that I know of) in the U.S. and there’s no guarantee that there ever will be.

Response:

I think she gets her responses straight from gOD himself so i would /watch/ it if i were you isabel! Malkav

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> This would have to be one of the most irresponsible suggestions I have ever > seen. > — > Isabel > 90% of being smart >  is knowing what >  you’re dumb at > Frog, can you not register the guns in your wife’s name and you stay on > the Depakote? > Heidi

Response:

I live in Georgia, USA. I have been involuntarily committed so it is illegal for me to buy a gun. If you have never been involuntarily committed then I believe you are free to buy guns throughout the USA. Simply having a mental illness diagnosis is not enough to rule you out. Someone correct me if I am wrong. It is my personal opinion that people with mental illness that includes bouts of suicidality and/or violent behavior should not own guns. I think it is the responsible thing to do, to get rid of the guns while you are stable, so that you will make it less likely that you will hurt yourself or others impulsively during a recurrence of symptoms. If you disagree with me, it is legal for you to keep your guns. There is never a guarantee what laws may be passed in the future. I would recommend that if these rights are important to you then join the ACLU and the NRA. They are both powerful lobbying groups. The ACLU will protect your privacy rights as a person with mental illness, the NRA will protect your rights to own firearms. I highly recommend staying in treatment with your psychiatrist. Discuss your concerns about privacy with the pdoc if you like. — For info about this service, see http://www.twwells.com/anon/ or e-mail:

Response:

I would be interested in hearing why you feel people with mental illness that include bouts of suicidality and/or vilent behavior should not own guns.  I know what you wrote in this paragraph, but I’d like you to explain further. Linda – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – >It is my personal opinion that people with mental illness that includes >bouts of suicidality and/or violent behavior should not own guns. I think >it is the responsible thing to do, to get rid of the guns while you are >stable, so that you will make it less likely that you will hurt yourself or >others impulsively during a recurrence of symptoms.

Response:

I was eating cookies when I noticed salarmy4me at > About your medical and > psychiatric records, no one will ever be allowed to open > them without your permission.  There are federal laws > against that.  So you can be relieved about that.  Also, the > psychiatrists themselves are bound by law not to reveal > psychiatric information or they would be disbarred and could > be sued….

There’s a little problem here.  The whole point of a waiting period of any sort before one can buy weapons is to verify that the prospective buyer doesn’t have a criminal record, and is not mentally ill. Therefore logically there has to be some way that certain mental health records make it into the public arena.  In fact if you’ve ever had health insurance of any sort you’ll realize exactly how loosely one’s so-called "right to privacy" is enforced. Sure, there are laws against that sort of things.  Hell, for what I know there’s also a fourth amendment, but that doesn’t keep anyone with a badge from stealing your car because he suspects you might be dealing dope on the side. TAE

Response:

Hi Linda. I am personally against suicide and violence. I think they are both wrong. In the case of suicide, it is my personal belief that people kill themselves under the influence of disordered thinking and we should try to intervene to help restore the will to live. Because I am against suicide and violence, I think it is a good idea to take precautionary measures if someone has a risk of doing these things. Guns are a means of destruction with a high potential of harm and lethality. Suicide attempts and violent attacks are more likely to end in death if a gun is used. Whatever benefits there are to owning a gun, I think they are outweighed by the negative risks for a person who has a history and future potential of suicidality and/or violence. That is why I encourage people with bipolar disorder to get rid of guns in their homes.  Songbird > I would be interested in hearing why you feel people with mental illness > that > include bouts of suicidality and/or vilent behavior should not own guns.  I > know what you wrote in this paragraph, but I’d like you to explain further. > Linda >It is my personal opinion that people with mental illness that includes >bouts of suicidality and/or violent behavior should not own guns. I think >it is the responsible thing to do, to get rid of the guns while you are >stable, so that you will make it less likely that you will hurt yourself or >others impulsively during a recurrence of symptoms.

– For info about this service, see http://www.twwells.com/anon/ or e-mail:

Response:

Wow, I can’t believe how far apart we are on this one.  Just because someone owns a gun doesn’t mean they’re going to use in in suicide or homicide even if they show agressive tendencies.  Its like, I feel like killing myself, maybe I should get rid of every medication in the whole house.  Meds can kill too.   As can ropes… and knives….  the list is endless.  Why just guns? L – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – ===== >Hi Linda. I am personally against suicide and violence. I think they are >both wrong. In the case of suicide, it is my personal belief that people >kill themselves under the influence of disordered thinking and we should >try to intervene to help restore the will to live. Because I am against >suicide and violence, I think it is a good idea to take precautionary >measures if someone has a risk of doing these things. Guns are a means of >destruction with a high potential of harm and lethality. Suicide attempts >and violent attacks are more likely to end in death if a gun is used. >Whatever benefits there are to owning a gun, I think they are outweighed by >the negative risks for a person who has a history and future potential of >suicidality and/or violence. That is why I encourage people with bipolar >disorder to get rid of guns in their homes.  Songbird

Response:

> Wow, I can’t believe how far apart we are on this one.  Just because > someone  owns a gun doesn’t mean they’re going to use in in suicide or > homicide even  if  they show agressive tendencies.

Past suicide attempts are apparently good predictors of future completion of suicide. As for violent tendencies, I don’t know. >  Its like, I feel like killing myself, maybe  I  should get rid of every >  medication in the > whole house.  Meds can kill too.   As  can ropes… and knives….  the > list is endless.  Why just guns?

There are all kinds of things that have the potential to kill. Guns and explosives are the  most lethal because they act very fast and very violently. You are much much much more likely to survive a suicide attempt if you swallow pills or cut yourself. Hanging, if done right, is quite lethal though. Perhaps the same people shouldn’t own ropes either. For what it’s worth, I don’t agree with Songbird. I keep my guns because if I don’t get  well or if things take a really bad turn (and it’s starting to look bleak again) then I have an escape plan. Not to mention, I can’t afford to get old. There’s no way we can save  anything for "retirement" and I’m only going to get sicker as I get older. I already have  a very hard time getting medical care I need, so I will have to kill myself someday. People of this country don’t care about people such like myself needing medical care, but they won’t let us kill ourselves either. It’s a hideous double standard. "Restoring the will to live" is more than just  calling the police when you know someone is suicidal. What you’re doing is  likely making that person’s life worse, as s/he will probably be stuck with the "rescue" and subsequent hospital bill. I bet the anonymous person who calls the police won’t help pay it either.  I keep my  guns because I will kill myself sooner or later, and they guarantee that no one will be able to stop me.

Response:

A gun is more like having a cyanide pill in the cupboard or a hangman’s scaffold in your backyard. Guns are dangerous for people to have that don’t have mental disorders. Most gunshot wound and deaths are from people losing their tempers who know or live with each other. Add a little instability to that and your risks would seem to go up. I have a gun, …but I don’t keep bullets ….and If I had them six months ago I would have been tempted to use them. Art of Garland Hopkins http://garland.galacticworlds.com Sculpture of Garland http://garland.galacticworlds.com/THECD/Sculpt1/sculpt1.html – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – > Wow, I can’t believe how far apart we are on this one.  Just because someone > owns a gun doesn’t mean they’re going to use in in suicide or homicide even > if > they show agressive tendencies.  Its like, I feel like killing myself, maybe > I > should get rid of every medication in the whole house.  Meds can kill too. > As > can ropes… and knives….  the list is endless.  Why just guns? > L > ===== >Hi Linda. I am personally against suicide and violence. I think they are >both wrong. In the case of suicide, it is my personal belief that people >kill themselves under the influence of disordered thinking and we should >try to intervene to help restore the will to live. Because I am against >suicide and violence, I think it is a good idea to take precautionary >measures if someone has a risk of doing these things. Guns are a means of >destruction with a high potential of harm and lethality. Suicide attempts >and violent attacks are more likely to end in death if a gun is used. >Whatever benefits there are to owning a gun, I think they are outweighed by >the negative risks for a person who has a history and future potential of >suicidality and/or violence. That is why I encourage people with bipolar >disorder to get rid of guns in their homes.  Songbird

Response:

> Wow, I can’t believe how far apart we are on this one.

Oh well, it just shows that intelligent people can disagree. >Just because someone > owns a gun doesn’t mean they’re going to use in in suicide or homicide even > if > they show agressive tendencies.

Correct. But if you have attempted suicide in the past, you are likely to try it again. If you have been violent in the past, you are likely to do it again. If you have suicidal thoughts, you are at risk of an attempt. So if you have a gun, and you have suicidality and/or violent tendencies associated with your mental illness, then you are at risk of using the gun for a suicide attempt or violence against another person. It’s a risk, not a certainty. >Its like, I feel like killing myself, maybe > I > should get rid of every medication in the whole house.  Meds can kill too.

Many suicidal people stash what they believe is a lethal quantity of medication (often old meds) to be used in a suicide attempt. I encourage these people to flush that down the toilet and keep only the current supply of the prescriptions they are now taking. I have been online in the cafe while it was done. It takes a lot of courage, and support is very helpful. Obviously, I don’t think people should get rid of every medication in the house – we need to keep the ones that are sustaining our health. > As > can ropes… and knives….  the list is endless.  Why just guns?

For me it was rubber bands and plastic bags. I don’t keep any large rubber bands any more, I always cut them up if they come my way in the mail or whatever. So it’s not just guns. Whatever a person’s preferred lethal means, they should take steps to make themselves more safe. But the fact remains that guns are more effective killers than virtually any other means. And unlike knives and rope, they are manufactured as tools to kill without other everyday functions. Millions of people live perfectly satisfactory lives without owning a gun. If you are concerned about security, you can take a self defense class and install a security system. I know there are certain people who feel very strongly about gun ownership and I don’t wish to start a debate about it. I’m not trying to take away your right to own a gun, I’m just giving my opinion. I hope I gave you something to think about. Songbird. > ===== >Hi Linda. I am personally against suicide and violence. I think they are >both wrong. In the case of suicide, it is my personal belief that people >kill themselves under the influence of disordered thinking and we should >try to intervene to help restore the will to live. Because I am against >suicide and violence, I think it is a good idea to take precautionary >measures if someone has a risk of doing these things. Guns are a means of >destruction with a high potential of harm and lethality. Suicide attempts >and violent attacks are more likely to end in death if a gun is used. >Whatever benefits there are to owning a gun, I think they are outweighed by >the negative risks for a person who has a history and future potential of >suicidality and/or violence. That is why I encourage people with bipolar >disorder to get rid of guns in their homes.  Songbird

– For info about this service, see http://www.twwells.com/anon/ or e-mail:

Response:

> A gun is more like having a cyanide pill in the cupboard or a hangman’s > scaffold in your backyard.

This implies that only reason to have a gun is to use in a suicide attempt. > Guns are dangerous for people to have that don’t have mental disorders.

So are many household items you take for granted.   > Most gunshot wound and deaths are from people losing their tempers > who know or live with each other.  Add a little instability to that > and your risks would seem to go up. I have a gun, …but I don’t keep > bullets ….and If I had them six months ago I would have been tempted > to use them.

I wouldn’t argue with this as a general trend, but I think there are better indicators.  I know that I am not a risk to my neighbors.  I also know that  the likelihood that I would be a risk to myself in the future is not increased by my possession of firearms. — Atlantic ExPat

Response:

> I know there are certain people who feel very strongly about gun ownership > and I don’t wish to start a debate about it. I’m not trying to take away > your right to own a gun, I’m just giving my opinion. I hope I gave you > something to think about. > Songbird.

The problem is this, people like you are giving this opinion and many are taking it to our government. I have no problem with you not having a gun, but we are talking about loosing the right to own a gun. Oh, I know that right now they are talking registration, but when they passed the seatbelt law, they assured me that they wouldn’t be able to stop you just for no seatbelt. Now they have road checks around here for seatbelts. The argument for seatbelt laws is this: Accidents cost all of us money in the form of higher insurance, ergo the public has the right to demand all wear seatbelts. This same reasoning when applied to suicide, suggested that we should help the sick and mentally ill to kill themselves; it’s cheaper. A gun law is not going to take a gun out of a criminal’s hand. You know that. It will take it out of my hand. I use them to hunt, to target practice, to defend myself if necessary, and to kill myself if I want. Gun control advocates in the large part are suburbanites who worry about there kids and neighbors playing with their guns and killing someone. They are right to some extent. The suburbs are not the best place to have guns. The police can respond very quickly to problems there and the likelihood of a gun accident happening in an area where the population doesn’t have a place to practice with a gun is much greater. I shoot a gun on a weekly basis, I get a lot of practice. My kids shoot and know gun safety. They have killed things with guns. They know what they do. No curiosity here. We know! I’m not up to writing anymore. You know my opinion and I’m unlikely to change anyone’s mind. I hope this whole thing doesn’t tear our country apart. There are many who will not give up guns, no matter what the law is, and most likely are willing to fight to keep them. Civil war is not pretty. As to guns and mental illness. This is tough. I feel that I am just as capable of handling a gun as I always have been. I’ve been suicidal but never have I contemplated using a gun on another person. Yet some could. How do we evaluate this? I don’t know. I think that if it came down to giving up my guns or being crazy, I would stop being crazy. Appreciate humor, Paul M

Response:

Yes, it does come down to how well you trust yourself. I don’t trust myself that much, too much road rage. Garland – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – > I wouldn’t argue with this as a general trend, but I think there are > better indicators.  I know that I am not a risk to my neighbors.  I also > know that  the likelihood that I would be a risk to myself in the future > is not increased by my possession of firearms. > — > Atlantic ExPat

Response:

You did and I disagree. Peace. Linda – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – >I know there are certain people who feel very strongly about gun ownership >and I don’t wish to start a debate about it. I’m not trying to take away >your right to own a gun, I’m just giving my opinion. I hope I gave you >something to think about. >Songbird.

Response:

I hope you’ve planned it.  It isn’t always easy to kill yourself using a gun either.  Do the research and don’t make someone have to take care of you the rest of your life.  As for me, if I go I know exactly how to do it.  Exactly where to cut.  So see, owning guns is neither here nor there for me. >There are all kinds of things that have the potential to kill. Guns and >explosives are the  most lethal because they act very fast and very >violently. You are much much much more likely to survive a suicide attempt >if you swallow pills or cut yourself. Hanging, if done right, is quite >lethal though. Perhaps the same people shouldn’t own ropes either.

Come to think of it, I’d better keep my car in the garage too.  Its also deadly.  One quick trip off a very tall cliff and off I’d go.  I just think if someone wants to die, they’re going to.  Period.  No stopping the determined. Linda

Response:

Very well put, Paul. Linda – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – >The problem is this, people like you are giving this opinion and many are >taking it to our government. I have no problem with you not having a gun, >but we are talking about loosing the right to own a gun. Oh, I know that >right now they are talking registration, but when they passed the seatbelt >law, they assured me that they wouldn’t be able to stop you just for no >seatbelt. Now they have road checks around here for seatbelts. The argument >for seatbelt laws is this: Accidents cost all of us money in the form of >higher insurance, ergo the public has the right to demand all wear >seatbelts. >This same reasoning when applied to suicide, suggested that we should help >the sick and mentally ill to kill themselves; it’s cheaper. >A gun law is not going to take a gun out of a criminal’s hand. You know >that. It will take it out of my hand. I use them to hunt, to target >practice, to defend myself if necessary, and to kill myself if I want. Gun >control advocates in the large part are suburbanites who worry about there >kids and neighbors playing with their guns and killing someone. They are >right to some extent. The suburbs are not the best place to have guns. The >police can respond very quickly to problems there and the likelihood of a >gun accident happening in an area where the population doesn’t have a place >to practice with a gun is much greater. I shoot a gun on a weekly basis, I >get a lot of practice. My kids shoot and know gun safety. They have killed >things with guns. They know what they do. No curiosity here. We know! >I’m not up to writing anymore. You know my opinion and I’m unlikely to >change anyone’s mind. I hope this whole thing doesn’t tear our country >apart. There are many who will not give up guns, no matter what the law is, >and most likely are willing to fight to keep them. Civil war is not pretty. >As to guns and mental illness. This is tough. I feel that I am just as >capable of handling a gun as I always have been. I’ve been suicidal but >never have I contemplated using a gun on another person. Yet some could. How >do we evaluate this? I don’t know. I think that if it came down to giving up >my guns or being crazy, I would stop being crazy. >Appreciate humor, >Paul M

Response:

> There’s a little problem here.  The whole point of a waiting period of > any sort before one can buy weapons is to verify that the prospective > buyer doesn’t have a criminal record, and is not mentally ill.

Most states don’t really do much of a mental records check at this point and even if they did it only includes those people that have been involuntarily commited and those that have been found to be legally incompetent.  If the rules were kept this way, and there was a way for a person to ruled competent in the future if circumstances changed, I wouldn’t have any problems with the current law. I am, however,  quite concerned about how thing will look in just a few years. > Therefore logically there has to be some way that certain mental health > records make it into the public arena.  In fact if you’ve ever had health > insurance of any sort you’ll realize exactly how loosely one’s so-called > "right to privacy" is enforced.

Giving any information to a bank, insurance company, or other financial entity, all but destroys any protections on your privacy you once had.   > Sure, there are laws against that sort of things.  Hell, for what I know > there’s also a fourth amendment, but that doesn’t keep anyone with a > badge from stealing your car because he suspects you might be dealing > dope on the side.

Or just digging through your person, papers and effects because he thinks you look like you might be doing something wrong. Atlantic ExPat

Response:

> I hope you’ve planned it.

I have. > It isn’t always easy to kill yourself using a gun  either.

If you do it right it is. >  Do the research and don’t make someone have to take care > of you the  rest of your life.  As for me, if I go I know exactly how to > do it.  Exactly  where to cut.

I know how to do that right too. >  So see, owning guns is neither here nor there for me.

There’s no time lag with a gun. There is a time lag with a cut. You could still be rescued after you made the cut no matter how or where you cut. I suppose there could be a time  lag with a gun too, if you do it wrong. I just never thought of it because I had researched it so much myself and I think it’s a very fast and very lethal method compared to any others. > Come to think of it, I’d better keep my car in the garage too.  Its also >  deadly.

Cars are lethal weapons, yes. >  One quick trip off a very tall cliff and off I’d go. > I just think  if  someone wants to die, they’re going to.  Period.  No > stopping the  determined.

Yep.

Response: