Houston drownings

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Question:

>ubject: Re: Houston drownings

<snip> >I never hear of depressed mothers killing their children. Its alwwyas depressed >mothers with a substance abuse problem with THESE MEDS, commintting the heinous >crimes.

Actually, Linda, the problem of mothers killing their children precedes the invention of psychotropic medications. Probably by centuries. Back in 1922, the British Parliament introduced the Infanticide Act, which had the effect of reducing an infant murder charge to manslaughter if a postpartum mother "had not fully recovered from the effect of giving birth to such child, but by reason thereof the balance of her mind was then disturbed." <snip>

Response:

>>You are right there is no excuse, eric. There are, however, mitigating >circumstances. On NPR a report said that no one they spoke to in texas, a state >which executes the retarded, and is not known for sympathy, no one in that state >that was spoken to advocated the death penalty for the women. >I live in Texas and if there is going to be a death penalty I don’t see why >women should be exempt from it. Prosecutors have no choice but to seek the >death penalty in this case. Under Texas law a person may only be sentenced >to life in prison with the possiblity of parole or death. There is no >option of life without parole. She may be able to get a not guilty by >reason of insanity verdict but unlikely here in bloodthirsty Texas.

Juries need another option, death is cruel and unusual (another Texan) —–= Posted via Newsfeeds.Com, Uncensored Usenet News =—– http://www.newsfeeds.com – The #1 Newsgroup Service in the World! —–== Over 80,000 Newsgroups – 16 Different Servers! =—–

Response:

Tarbox, you show very wonderful compassion here, thank you for this example for my own life. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> >Ignorant people everywhere are equating this woman with a cold blooded > >murderer, and that simply is not the way it is. > Go away, you dont know what you are talking about. Severe mental illness, > including psychosis is no excuse for murdering someone. What this woman > did and > then blaming it on her "psychotic post partum depression" just gives all > the > rest of us mentally ill people a bad name. Try her in the regular courts. > Tough > shit. > Eric > Why do you have such a need to tell people to go away?? You should think > about this and how it relates to your own difficulties, this desire to push > away and rid yourself of those who you disagree with. > Eric, it seems that anyone who challenges your notion of how things should > be gets the ‘go away’ treatment. You definitely sent me that direct message > several times in a very irrational way…….you refused to take part in any > way with a dialogue with me……you just pushed me away, which is really > the same thing as running away….. > You see, Eric, most people would just not respond, or else take the time to > try and persuade the other person thru dialogue that they are incorrect, and > you would try to educate them with your superior knowledge and wisdom. > So, most folks either try to help out the person they disagree with (because > they realize the other person is misinformed or underinformed), or they > argue with the other person to prove their point (again, by elucidating > their side of the argument), or else, they just forget about the whole thing > and no longer engage in the conversation, finding it futile. > However, YOU bring emotion into the picture by telling many of us to ‘get > lost’ with comments such as ‘we are not worthy of dialogue’ because of > various reasons……You wish that we would just leave you alone….. > And I find that very interesting, Eric……let me know if you want to > explore this further, I think an exploration of your behavior would be very > illuminating for you and your depression….

Response:

>You are right there is no excuse, eric. There are, however, mitigating >circumstances. On NPR a report said that no one they spoke to in texas, a state >which executes the retarded, and is not known for sympathy, no one in that state >that was spoken to advocated the death penalty for the women.

I live in Texas and if there is going to be a death penalty I don’t see why women should be exempt from it. Prosecutors have no choice but to seek the death penalty in this case. Under Texas law a person may only be sentenced to life in prison with the possiblity of parole or death. There is no option of life without parole. She may be able to get a not guilty by reason of insanity verdict but unlikely here in bloodthirsty Texas.

Response:

> >Ignorant people everywhere are equating this woman with a cold blooded >murderer, and that simply is not the way it is. > Go away, you dont know what you are talking about. Severe mental illness, > including psychosis is no excuse for murdering someone. What this woman did and > then blaming it on her "psychotic post partum depression" just gives all the > rest of us mentally ill people a bad name. Try her in the regular courts. Tough > shit. > Eric

Why do you have such a need to tell people to go away?? You should think about this and how it relates to your own difficulties, this desire to push away and rid yourself of those who you disagree with. Eric, it seems that anyone who challenges your notion of how things should be gets the ‘go away’ treatment. You definitely sent me that direct message several times in a very irrational way…….you refused to take part in any way with a dialogue with me……you just pushed me away, which is really the same thing as running away….. You see, Eric, most people would just not respond, or else take the time to try and persuade the other person thru dialogue that they are incorrect, and you would try to educate them with your superior knowledge and wisdom. So, most folks either try to help out the person they disagree with (because they realize the other person is misinformed or underinformed), or they argue with the other person to prove their point (again, by elucidating their side of the argument), or else, they just forget about the whole thing and no longer engage in the conversation, finding it futile. However, YOU bring emotion into the picture by telling many of us to ‘get lost’ with comments such as ‘we are not worthy of dialogue’ because of various reasons……You wish that we would just leave you alone….. And I find that very interesting, Eric……let me know if you want to explore this further, I think an exploration of your behavior would be very illuminating for you and your depression….

Response:

You are right there is no excuse, eric. There are, however, mitigating circumstances. On NPR a report said that no one they spoke to in texas, a state which executes the retarded, and is not known for sympathy, no one in that state that was spoken to advocated the death penalty for the women. > What this woman did and > then blaming it on her "psychotic post partum depression" just gives all the > rest of us mentally ill people a bad name.

How does it give people a bad name, eric. Some folks here are attempting to advocate that mental illness is a brain illness. We all know the brain controls our behaviour and actions. If someone with a damaged brain is responsible for their actions how can we justify this eric? You just can no longer speak out of both sides of your mouth eric, the newsgroup is on to you. Time to run away to your yahoo group and lord your power there, eric, you no longer have much credibility here. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> Try her in the regular courts. Tough > shit. > Eric > Consumer complaints about psychiatry drug problems should be reported to FDA > Medwatch, ask for Medwatch form 3500. http://www.fda.gov/medwatch/ > MIBS (Minimally Invasive Brain Stimulation) > http://www.musc.edu/psychiatry/fnrd/tms.htm

Response:

You can’t have it both ways – that it’s both offensive to suggest that severely depressed people are unfit parents, and that a severe depression can explain infanticide. IMO, there’s no question that someone in a severe depression (particularly with psychosis) should not be taking care of kids – at least not without supervision or assistance. Definitely not five kids under seven. I’m not blaming the husband – I don’t think there are good services out there to help a family in a situation like that. But there should be. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text ->I am so sick of hearing people who don’t know jack shit talking about >this woman who killed her kids. People are so damn ignorant. THe fact >that people are calling for her blood, the fact that people have total >bloodlust for this woman is proof of what a stigma mental illness and >mental health issues have in our society. >Ignorant people everywhere are equating this woman with a cold blooded >murderer, and that simply is not the way it is. Asshole people are >talking about her husband, who did the right thing, the hard thing and >stayed by his wife who he loves even though she totally lost her >faculties and did something unspeakably horrible. >First off, nobody could have seen this coming, so you people with your >"I can’t believe they let her take care of her own children" blah blah >blah..(Oh, so people who have had problems with depression aren’t fit >parents? FUCK YOU! >Secondly, this is a tragedy. If you havent suffered through, or dont >understand what it’s like to suffer through a total break down of your >psyche, or you havent suffered through severe depression (although >there had to been a little more than garden variety depression going >on, post partum depression supposedly can just be incomprehensible to >people who havent been there) ..basically what I am saying is that you >cannot compare this with someone who simply commits murder. She should >not be held responsible for her actions in the same way someone in >full control of their mental faculties should be. >I feel the most sorry for her. I thin she has probably come out of it. >I know that she started to realize what she had just done and was >asking to be restrained or something. I know it;s hard for people who >are unfamiliar with mental health issues to wrap their little heads >around, but vengence wont help anyone here. It would just add to the >tragedy. This lady needs some serious hospitalization. Maybe one day >who knows, she might be able to handle having kids again. (oh, I know >that statement will piss someone off- and yes, I do believe that if >someone totaly recovers from something like this they deszerve what >life has to offer, including children, but I know that;s not poular >with those who like to sweep things under the rug.."oh, just kill her, >she’s defective" or "oh, let’s just incarcerate or execute the problem >away"…lame asses….. > >>> SSRI > >>>et al, going to get taken off the market, IMO, just a matter of time. > >>LOL Linda….WHAT is happening to you? Are you losing it a little? Thats >not > >>going to happen. > >Perhaps your right and I am wrong, but I am pretty good about reading the > >writing on the wall, reading trends, seeing where their headed, and IMO >there > >is going to be drastic tightening up regarding SSRI et al being used to >treat > >whatever nad I believe if they dont tighten up distribution, the backlash > >will > >get to loud, they will be taken off the market altogether. > >The tide has turned. > >Your beloved SSRI et al are in peril > >Get thee to therapy before it happens so your not one of the ones stuck > >holding > >the bag when the things get outlawed. > >>Are you alright Linda? > >A prophet, rather than one who profited from ssri’s et al. LOL > OTOH, who the hell knows, I wouldnt be surprised if the drug manufacturers > themselves behind the bad press the original SSRI et al, now getting. >AFter > all the patents on those are now expiring, why not give such drugs bad >press > and get everyone off them and onto ones with patent, remeron, celexa, etc. > Seems like bad press as patents come up could be manufacturers ploy to >assure > soemthing akin to planned obsolescence. > I see no difference between my buying a Nintendo, and all those games, and >then > a Super Nintendo and all those games, then a Nintendo 64 and all those >games, > in a 10 year span, and what the pro med and drug mfg would have had me >doing > regards psychotropic meds for my depression those ten years. > Ok, I am a sucker regarding the toys but when it comes to my brain, and the > first batch of those SSRI et al, harmed more than helped, I not going to >keep > buying each successive metamorphasis of them. > Flawed, and I cant see their ever doing anything for me so long as there >exists > a flaw in the basic foundation constituted. > Linda > > "For what is a man, what does he got? > > If not himself, then he has naught. > > To say, the things he truly feels. > > And not the words of one who kneels. > > The record shows, I took the blows. > > And did it my way!" > "For what is a man, what does he got? > If not himself, then he has naught. > To say, the things he truly feels. > And not the words of one who kneels. > The record shows, I took the blows. > And did it my way!"

Response:

I am so sick of hearing people who don’t know jack shit talking about this woman who killed her kids. People are so damn ignorant. THe fact that people are calling for her blood, the fact that people have total bloodlust for this woman is proof of what a stigma mental illness and mental health issues have in our society. Ignorant people everywhere are equating this woman with a cold blooded murderer, and that simply is not the way it is. Asshole people are talking about her husband, who did the right thing, the hard thing and stayed by his wife who he loves even though she totally lost her faculties and did something unspeakably horrible. First off, nobody could have seen this coming, so you people with your "I can’t believe they let her take care of her own children" blah blah blah..(Oh, so people who have had problems with depression aren’t fit parents? FUCK YOU! Secondly, this is a tragedy. If you havent suffered through, or dont understand what it’s like to suffer through a total break down of your psyche, or you havent suffered through severe depression (although there had to been a little more than garden variety depression going on, post partum depression supposedly can just be incomprehensible to people who havent been there) ..basically what I am saying is that you cannot compare this with someone who simply commits murder. She should not be held responsible for her actions in the same way someone in full control of their mental faculties should be. I feel the most sorry for her. I thin she has probably come out of it. I know that she started to realize what she had just done and was asking to be restrained or something. I know it;s hard for people who are unfamiliar with mental health issues to wrap their little heads around, but vengence wont help anyone here. It would just add to the tragedy. This lady needs some serious hospitalization. Maybe one day who knows, she might be able to handle having kids again. (oh, I know that statement will piss someone off- and yes, I do believe that if someone totaly recovers from something like this they deszerve what life has to offer, including children, but I know that;s not poular with those who like to sweep things under the rug.."oh, just kill her, she’s defective" or "oh, let’s just incarcerate or execute the problem away"…lame asses….. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text ->>> SSRI >>>et al, going to get taken off the market, IMO, just a matter of time. >>LOL Linda….WHAT is happening to you? Are you losing it a little? Thats not >>going to happen. >Perhaps your right and I am wrong, but I am pretty good about reading the >writing on the wall, reading trends, seeing where their headed, and IMO there >is going to be drastic tightening up regarding SSRI et al being used to treat >whatever nad I believe if they dont tighten up distribution, the backlash >will >get to loud, they will be taken off the market altogether. >The tide has turned. >Your beloved SSRI et al are in peril >Get thee to therapy before it happens so your not one of the ones stuck >holding >the bag when the things get outlawed. >>Are you alright Linda? >A prophet, rather than one who profited from ssri’s et al. LOL > OTOH, who the hell knows, I wouldnt be surprised if the drug manufacturers > themselves behind the bad press the original SSRI et al, now getting. AFter > all the patents on those are now expiring, why not give such drugs bad press > and get everyone off them and onto ones with patent, remeron, celexa, etc. > Seems like bad press as patents come up could be manufacturers ploy to assure > soemthing akin to planned obsolescence. > I see no difference between my buying a Nintendo, and all those games, and then > a Super Nintendo and all those games, then a Nintendo 64 and all those games, > in a 10 year span, and what the pro med and drug mfg would have had me doing > regards psychotropic meds for my depression those ten years. > Ok, I am a sucker regarding the toys but when it comes to my brain, and the > first batch of those SSRI et al, harmed more than helped, I not going to keep > buying each successive metamorphasis of them. > Flawed, and I cant see their ever doing anything for me so long as there exists > a flaw in the basic foundation constituted. > Linda > "For what is a man, what does he got? > If not himself, then he has naught. > To say, the things he truly feels. > And not the words of one who kneels. > The record shows, I took the blows. > And did it my way!" > "For what is a man, what does he got? > If not himself, then he has naught. > To say, the things he truly feels. > And not the words of one who kneels. > The record shows, I took the blows. > And did it my way!"

Response:

this sick massacre is about the depression of the murderer. Even the husband quickly forgives her!!! Bizarre. I guess cause I am on some depressants I too can go kill 5 people and probably just get – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text ->Wow … all those drugs … and she was still deeply depressed. So, what >exactly is your point? Just because she was on certain psychotropic drugs >you are saying that this is the proximate cause for her killing her five >children? Does that mean I can kill you because of what I am taking … I am >feeling kind of … don’t quite know how I would describe this feeling … >help me out here, Eric … kind of twitchy … eyes bugging out … mouth >all dry … >I gues I better be watching out for freaks wearing tinfoil hats …. > The media is having a field day with this bizarre killing. And as usual when a > person with severe mental illness committs an act of great violence, it just > contributes to the stigma, mysteriousness and "boogeyman" factor of mental > illness. Ultimately this thing about the reason for the killing being her post > partum depression is a bunch of bullshit. Even if she was psychotic, thats > still not an excuse. > Even if severe mental illness causes a person to develop "violent thoughts" and > that does happen sometimes, that doesnt mean a person should go out and commit > acts of violence and then blame it on their illness. Thats an excuse. There are > fundamental differences between just having thoughts and actually going out and > acting on those thoughts. If a person acts on their thoughts they are a > criminal, mental illness or not and they should be prosecuted as a criminal. > Their mental illness is not a factor because ultimately when its all said and > done a person’s ability to know right from wrong comes in even when a person is > severely depressed, even if they are psychotic. Even psychotic people know > right from wrong. > Violent thoughts can occur from a wide range of psychiatric disease. From just > plain old severe irritability in major depression especially in depressed > males, to psychosis. Violent thoughts are quite common in OCD. However having > these kinds of thoughts is fundamentally different from actually acting on > those thoughts. Thats where the buck stops and thats where the ability to know > right from wrong kicks in. The ability to know right from wrong is not related > to a person’s mental illness and a person who knows right from wrong will > maintain that ability to know right from wrong despite severe mental illness. > Thus they wont act on their thoughts which might be created from severe mental > illness. > People with severe mood disorders can get extremely irritable many times. But > that doesnt mean they go out and commit acts of violence. > This killing in my opinion will just add to the public’s perception of severely > mentally ill as being potentially violent and "crazy." I hate to say it, but > psychiatry goes along with this many times and doesnt do much to try to stop > these perceptions. And all of us mentally ill people must live with this > stigma, because one asshole out of a million does something really stupid and > dumb…and not related to their mental illness despite what some claim. > Everything I hear now on TV about this murder is relating it to her "post > partum depression." What a crock of shit. Its not related to her post partum > depression, even if she had psychosis. It happened because she decided to do > it. > The thing I really despise about situations like this down in Houston is that > it feeds these misperceptions about the mentally ill that are not true. 99.99% > of us are totally nonviolent and are not criminals in any way shape or form. > Even if mental illness creates severe irritablity and agitation, that still > doesnt mean we are violent or potentially dangerous. It just means we are > severely clinically depressed or severely manic. And that doesnt mean we are > more likely to do something violent either. > Mentally ill people always get screwed over, always have gotten screwed over > and probably always will get screwed over. Much of this idiot treatment is from > these faulty misperceptions and ideas others have about us, most of which is > based on fear, ignorance and what I call the "boogeyman" factor of mental > illness…fear of the unknown. Most people fear mental illness and most people > are uncomfortable with the severely mentally ill. > And to finalize things, most psychotics are not violent. Most psychotics are > more likely to be victimized and taken advantage of than to be committers of > violence. Most psychotics are just extremely sick with malfunctioning brains. > Psychosis is a neurological or neuro-endocrine disorder. They dont deserve to > be treated as freaks or quasi-criminals. They deserve caring, individualized > medical treatment. They dont need to be locked up, they just need to be treated > as any other person with a serious illness would be treated. With quality > medical care, love and individualized attention. > Knowing right from wrong and knowing that murder is wrong starts when a person > is a preschooler or before. That ability to know right from wrong will follow a > person throughtout their life, even if they someday do develop severe mental > illness. When a person committs an act of violence, its ultimately because they > dont know right from wrong, mental illness or no mental illness. Period. > Eric > Consumer complaints about psychiatry drug problems should be reported to FDA > Medwatch, ask for Medwatch form 3500. http://www.fda.gov/medwatch/ > MIBS (Minimally Invasive Brain Stimulation) > http://www.musc.edu/psychiatry/fnrd/tms.htm

Response:

>>I just watched the CBS news and they showed the drugs the mother who >drowned >her children were taking. They were Remeron, Effexor, Haldol, and >Wellbutrin. >The husband was on CNN earlier today and said that she had been on Effexor, >Wellbutrin and Haldol during her last depressive episode. At the time of >the murders, she was only on Effexor and Remeron.

I wonder how long she had been off the Haldol.

Response:

>NO WAY ever going to take any neuroleptic. I believe all those SSRI et al I >took makes me permanently susceptibel to akathisia, from both ssri, and >neuroleptics. >NO MORE MEDS FOR ME.

Not good Linda, there are neuroleptics that don’t cause those side effects. I’m med free and I have some awful days, I was much better medicated, but it was either eat or be on meds. —–= Posted via Newsfeeds.Com, Uncensored Usenet News =—– http://www.newsfeeds.com – The #1 Newsgroup Service in the World! —–== Over 80,000 Newsgroups – 16 Different Servers! =—–

Response:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text ->Perhaps your right and I am wrong, but I am pretty good about reading the >writing on the wall, reading trends, seeing where their headed, and IMO there >is going to be drastic tightening up regarding SSRI et al being used to treat >whatever nad I believe if they dont tighten up distribution, the backlash >will >get to loud, they will be taken off the market altogether. >The tide has turned. >Your beloved SSRI et al are in peril >Get thee to therapy before it happens so your not one of the ones stuck >holding >the bag when the things get outlawed.

LOL Yeah right Linda. Is it time for the Seroquel now? SSRIs arent going anywhere. Eric Consumer complaints about psychiatry drug problems should be reported to FDA Medwatch, ask for Medwatch form 3500. http://www.fda.gov/medwatch/ MIBS (Minimally Invasive Brain Stimulation) http://www.musc.edu/psychiatry/fnrd/tms.htm

Response:

>Wow … all those drugs … and she was still deeply depressed. So, what >exactly is your point? Just because she was on certain psychotropic drugs >you are saying that this is the proximate cause for her killing her five >children? Does that mean I can kill you because of what I am taking … I am >feeling kind of … don’t quite know how I would describe this feeling … >help me out here, Eric … kind of twitchy … eyes bugging out … mouth >all dry … >I gues I better be watching out for freaks wearing tinfoil hats ….

You seem awfully defensive about it. I never said there was any connection at all between the drownings and drugs. But she was on drugs and that possibility has to be looked into. Of course she could have just been psychotic since she was taking Haldol.

Response:

>I just watched the CBS news and they showed the drugs the mother who drowned >her children were taking. They were Remeron, Effexor, Haldol, and

Wellbutrin. The husband was on CNN earlier today and said that she had been on Effexor, Wellbutrin and Haldol during her last depressive episode. At the time of the murders, she was only on Effexor and Remeron.

Response:

> I just watched the CBS news and they showed the drugs the mother who drowned > her children were taking. They were Remeron, Effexor, Haldol, and

Wellbutrin. if I added a few more I would start killing??? -tarbox p.s. let’s all take 4 drugs at once!!!

Response:

> I just watched the CBS news and they showed the drugs the mother who drowned > her children were taking. They were Remeron, Effexor, Haldol, and

Wellbutrin. before you blame the meds–ask why a woman who had been diagnosed with post partum depression for over two years–original diagnosis was after the youngest son was born–had another child?? one has to wonder why the family would consider another pregnancy with all the issues she had with the other baby. and, if the father knew she was that bad–which on cbs he stated he saw "it" (referring to the depression/psychosis) coming on and tried to get the meds quickly. but, if he knew she was not well–and she was on extremely strong medications–why did he not get help for her to heal with the five children? good lord, why would he leave an extremely ill person to take care of five young children????? wouldn’t he have tried to make arrangements to get her some help?? connemara — In Memory of Colette Cassavaugh ***8/13/99*** –who lost her will to live to the external demons charged with her care. and then… –lost her life to internal demons. –REFORM MENTAL HEALTH CARE– Remove spam from email for response.

Response:

I just watched the CBS news and they showed the drugs the mother who drowned her children were taking. They were Remeron, Effexor, Haldol, and Wellbutrin.

Response:

Wow … all those drugs … and she was still deeply depressed. So, what exactly is your point? Just because she was on certain psychotropic drugs you are saying that this is the proximate cause for her killing her five children? Does that mean I can kill you because of what I am taking … I am feeling kind of … don’t quite know how I would describe this feeling … help me out here, Eric … kind of twitchy … eyes bugging out … mouth all dry … I gues I better be watching out for freaks wearing tinfoil hats ….

> I just watched the CBS news and they showed the drugs the mother who drowned > her children were taking. They were Remeron, Effexor, Haldol, and

Wellbutrin. —

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