Question:

Irrational gelatinous verbiage such as this isn’t really worth responding to, (it sounds like something you’d see in the 70’s), however I’ll simply state that you’ve said nothing to refute any of my assertions and haven’t provided _any_ evidence to support your addle brained suggestions that any of these alternative treatments are valuable in treating bipolar disorder.  Even their proponents can only provide anecdotal evidence– talk about methodology??  It sounds as if you might be relying a bit too heavily on alternative treatments right now.  My recommendation to you is to visit your nearest medical library after trying all the various home remedies found in the book stores, buy a few texts on basic pharmacology, then neuropsychopharmacology, read and learn… and look forward to advances in the psychopharmacology of affective disorders in the 21st century. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – >x-no-archive: yes >"Thanks for the interesting and informative alternative sites." >You are welcome. >" I didn’t know Hoffer was still living. " >Is he?  I thought he was dead. >"If you’re looking at orthomolecular medicine as an alternative treatment in >manic-depressive illness or schizophrenia, you’re wasting your time.  I take >a number of supplements, including 12 grams of inositol a day, but I use them >adjunctively and, with the exception of inositol, I can’t say for sure >whether or not they’re helpful. " >Interesting, how do you know the inositol is helpful? (and why can you not >tell about the others? are meds alone not helpful?  do you know how the >supplements and the meds interact?) >"In the mid-70’s, I was treated fora while by an orthomolecular psychiatrist >at the Brain-Bio Center in Princeton, NJ in an attempt to get off meds-no >success. Unfortunately, none of Hoffer’s schizophrenia studies have stood up >under scientific scrutiny, that is, double-blind contolled studies.  " >One person’s experience  ’for a while’ with one orthomolecular psychiatrist >is not of great statistical significance–There are many thousands of people >who worked ‘for a while’ with a traditional psychiatrist and had-’no >success’. Neither statement proves much of anything, you will agree I am >sure. I am sorry to argue, but numerous official mental health sources >indicate that a) most mental disorders are misdiagnosed for many years b) the >diagnoses change for many over time c) many people take meds in a variety >doses and combinations or not for many years before stabilization.  How to >talk about outcomes when the paths are so varied and complex and >underdocumented? >Finally , double-blind controlled studies, while helpful, are not the be-all >and end-all. Ther are a lot of problems with this methodology.      For just two >examples, there are very few such studies done which involve more than one >thing’s being double-blind controlled, and the duration of the trials are >questionable in their usefulness. >"Many of us wish there were uncomplicated, natural, side-effect free >treatments, but no efficacy has ever been demonstrated in real clinical >trials." >There are very few "clinical" trials done on such things, so we don’t have >enough evidence to make any decision yet. Maybe we just haven’t hit upon the >right treatment (and there is nobody pouring money into that comparable to >the >$$ being spent on psychotropics, so don’t hold your breath) and the clinical >trials on traditional methods are often quite flawed, as is the >data-crunching >done on them. >"  Remember, lithium is still >the #1 drug used in bipolar illness, and it’s a natural element. " >Doesn’t that say something(s) right there? >" >Pharmaceutical manufacturers have economic incentives, true, but  if their >drugs are ineffective or not an improvement over what’s currently available, >they aren’t used in clinical practice.  " >Hello?      Physicians administer all kinds of things which prove ineffective and >not an improvement, some briefly, some for many years.      Sometimes you hear of >deaths from some of them (eg heart-related things make headlines, or tylenol >overdose etc.) and a great fuss is made.  Often you do not hear a thing >because the patient who feels worse is not believed or heard or is quite >willing to believe he is just getting more ill naturally because he has no >way of proving otherwise  (and most docs are hardly going to encourage him to >think the doc’s aadministrations were harmful!) . >"The first-generation neuroleptics and antidepressants are crude by todays’s >standards,  but ten or twenty years from now, so will, say, the SSRI’s (not >really selective anyway) and the "atypical" antipsychotics, such as >olanzapine, risperidone,and clozapine.      BTW, all three can cause Neuroleptic >Malignant Syndrome or Lethal Catatonia (very rare). " >All which three?  first-gen antips, SSRIs, and atypicals, or the 3 atypicals >on your list? >" In any case, with new drugs it’s difficult to weigh the benefits and risks >because you never know what lies 40 years down the road.  " >Quite.  Furthermore, it is difficult if you take the view that it is a >whole-body illness to separate and understand, or combine and understand, all >the benefits and risks of all the things which affect your whole body for 40 >years.  True? >" My point is that bipolar illness is a genetic, whole body illness,  with >early death as a potential consequence.  Until gene replacement therapy is >available, we’re going to have to rely on the best drugs that neuroscience >has to offer.  Herbs, nutritional supplements, acupuncture, even >homeopathy… I use them occasionally– but not for a genetic, >life-threatening, major medical illness." >We have arguments breaking out on the genes, we have senior members of the >genetics community saying ALL characteristics are genetic, and the expression >or not of any of them is dependent on a number of factors, we still have >people arguing nurture over nature; we have therapists who say they have >patients who stabilized without medicines, we have nutritionists and >acupuncturists who claim same, and we have people who get well >’spontaneously’ (hands up those whose doctors have told them about one, just >one..) We also have death as a potential consequence for those who suffer >side-effects, or abuse in hopital, or stigma, or poverty.  Hsve all those and >more been lumped together in the statistic quoted as 15%, sometimes 20%, >sometimes more? Have you ever tracked down suicide statistics?      I have tried, >what I found was pretty vague and details of causes are less documented than >the methods they chose by gender. >Many  would like to think there is an uncomplicated answer/explanation, but >there isn’t. >We could say seeing a psychiatrist can be documented as leading to a >statistically significant number of deaths–you see my point about treatment >of data, I hope. >We haven’t tried, for example, some kind of massive program whereby some >people at risk get all kinds of orchestrated help in leading a lower-stress >life, somehow, and seeing if that would be just as good as medicine.  (I >didn’t say this would be easy or acceptable to the world!). We have pitifully >little data on what the long-term effects of anything are, or even >short-term. Who knows what delicate mechanism the medicines are upsetting >really, or helping really, or either one in different individuals, and who >knows what controls what even across generations? Example I was  reading >about recently:  women since the 40’s were given medicine to protect them >from miscarriage.  They have collected statistics which say their daughters >have higher cancer and infertility incidence.  Cause and effect? Dunno. >Don’t have details on the stats and the studies.  Don’t know what happened to >the sons. >It is often quoted, but I don’t know who said it, that the greatest >scientists >are those who manage to keep an open mind.  There is so very much unknown or >oversimplified.  The real world is complex and often very subtle.

Response:

>http://www.thewayup.com/links.htm >http://www.orthomed.org/links/web.htm

Here some additional potential FAQ material: web links to info about alternative (unpatentable) methods to treat depression: Good-bye Depression (From "Alcoholism–The Biochemical Connection" by Joan Larson) http://www.personal.u-net.com/~trans4mind/depression.html Nutritional Approaches to Mental Health. Hyla Cass, M.D. http://www.healthy.net/LIBRARY/Articles/Cass/Nutritional.htm Life Extension Foundation’s depression protocol http://lef.org/protocols/prtcl-040.shtml Dr. Weil’s depression protocol http://cgi.pathfinder.com/drweil/database/display/0,1412,35,00.html Dietary Supplements (Dr. Weil’s protocol mentioned, too) http://www.depression.com/anti/anti_27_dietary.htm 5-Hydroxytryptophan: The Serotonin Solution http://www.mediconsult.com/vitamins/shareware/solution/ WARNING About 5-hydroxytryptophan http://lef.org/magazine/hotlines3.html , Controversy Erupts About Safety of 5-HTP http://www.vrp.com/cgi-bin/SoftCart.exe/new/2library/5htps.htm?L+vrp+… http://www.shaysnet.com/~wmson/5htps.htm http://www.mediconsult.com/vitamins/shareware/controversy/ Listening To 5-HTP http://www.smartbasic.com/glos.news/1.listening.to.5htp.html Increase serotonin with 5-HTP http://www.life-enhancement.com/n38/n385htp.html 5-HTP Abstracts http://www.thorne.com/altmedrev/recent-5htp3-3.html Chronology of Articles in  Life Enhancement’s 5-HTP Archives http://www.life-enhancement.com/808nwebsite/808nchronology.htm Inositol Found Effective For Depression And Panic-Anxiety by Richard Podell, M.D. http://www.nutritionsciencenews.com/NSN_backs/Oct_96/inositol.html Controlled trials of inositol in psychiatry by Levine J http://www.biopsychiatry.com/inositol.htm PROZAC