SSRIs

Question:

Hey All, I just got back from the Dr and he started me on a new medicine that I am not familiar with and I am hoping y’all can give me some insight on it – Topomax – I read on rx.com it is used for seizures but I don’t have them – what other things is it used for and what can I expect in the way of side effects?   Thanks in advance Polly His eye is on the sparrow….. and I know He watches me… Polly

Response:

>I just got back from the Dr and he started me on a new medicine that I am not >familiar with and I am hoping y’all can give me some insight on it – Topomax >- >I read on rx.com it is used for seizures but I don’t have them – what other >things is it used for and what can I expect in the way of side effects?  

It’s also being used for Neuropathy, like Neurontin is being used for. It’s in that class of meds. It can cause weight loss, unlike the other meds. Topamax is used for seizures, but many meds have "off label" uses, and that’s what Topamax, Neurontin, Tegretol, and Depakote (forgive me if I have left any out) are being used for; Neuropathy, migraines, and other things. I recommend WebMD.com…it’s a lot more thorough than rxlist.com when it comes to explaining medications. It’s also just a great site in general. I would type more but I cant see the screen. Nikki ******* I am who I am Your approval is neither Desired nor required ******* When you throw mud at someone, remember you are the one who is losing ground. ******* If anger is a crutch, then why cant I hit people with it? *******

Response:

Hi Polly ..  let me know if the Topomax helps your pain .. my pain Dr just told me he wants to try me on Neurontin .. and it’s an anti-seizure med,too. I’m leary and scared to start it                       thanks and good luck – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – > Hey All, > I just got back from the Dr and he started me on a new medicine that I am not > familiar with and I am hoping y’all can give me some insight on it – Topomax – > I read on rx.com it is used for seizures but I don’t have them – what other > things is it used for and what can I expect in the way of side effects? > Thanks in advance > Polly > His eye is on the sparrow….. > and I know He watches me… > Polly

Response:

Hey Polly ..  have you tried the Topomax yet ? I got my script filled for Neurontin (same type med {anti-seizure} as your Topomax) and it’s for ONE 300mg a day at bedtime..I don’t see how that small a dose can help my cervical spine pain ..        anxious to hear if you’re having any luck ! – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – > Hey All, > I just got back from the Dr and he started me on a new medicine that I am not > familiar with and I am hoping y’all can give me some insight on it – Topomax – > I read on rx.com it is used for seizures but I don’t have them – what other > things is it used for and what can I expect in the way of side effects? > Thanks in advance > Polly > His eye is on the sparrow….. > and I know He watches me… > Polly

Response:

>Hey Polly .. > have you tried the Topomax yet ? I

I have started it and I do seem to be resting better.  I hope yours will help you as well. Polly His eye is on the sparrow….. and I know He watches me… Polly

Response:

BUT are you having less pain during the day ? I’m so happy it is helping you have better nights ! – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text ->Hey Polly .. > have you tried the Topomax yet ? I > I have started it and I do seem to be resting better.  I hope yours will help > you as well. > Polly > His eye is on the sparrow….. > and I know He watches me… > Polly

Response:

>BUT are you having less pain during the day ?

nope I see no difference during the day – unfortunantly- I only take it at bedtime so far… Polly His eye is on the sparrow….. and I know He watches me… Polly

Response:

>Hey Polly .. > have you tried the Topomax yet ? I got my script filled for Neurontin (same type >med {anti-seizure} as your Topomax) and it’s for ONE 300mg a day at bedtime..

You have to start small and titrate up.  I started at one 100mg at bedtime the first day (three days?  it was a long time ago), then one in the morning and one at bedtime, then three equally spaced.  When that didn’t do anything, I went to 200mg 3x/day, then 300.  Just kept going up, was good at 600mg 3x/day for a while, but then had to increase that.  Now I’m at 3000 mg/day in 4 doses, and the last week has been pretty miserable, so I don’t know where to go from here. >I don’t see how that small a dose can help my cervical spine pain ..

I think that that small a dose helps (sometimes).  I also think it only helps if it’s really nerve pain, it doesn’t do anything for other types of pain. >anxious to hear if you’re having any luck !

Same here.   And for you too. Jon Miller

Response:

me,too … I don’t understand why I have to take mine (Neurontin 300mg) at bedtime .. it has a 1/2 life of 5-7 hours .. so that means.. if I go to bed at 10PM, by 10AM I only have about 75mg in my system .. I’m going to ask the Dr about that on Thursday,,I thought maybe the pharmicist had not read the Dr’s script right .. ‘ at bedtime’ ..

Response:

I’m taking Neurontin 300mg, 3 times a day. Dick

Response:

IS it helping ? I can’t tell if the Neurontin is doing any good at all since I take ONE at bedtime..  The stuff sure is expensive ! I don’t have prescription plan so it’s all out of my pocket.. if my Dr ups the amount I take , I’ll have to research on Inet drugstores ..it’s $40 for 30 here and 3 a day sure would be expensive ! but worth it IF it relieved the pain ! – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – > I’m taking Neurontin 300mg, 3 times a day. > Dick

Response:

anita stated: > IS it helping ? I can’t tell if the Neurontin is doing any good at all > since I take ONE at bedtime.. >  The stuff sure is expensive ! I don’t have prescription plan so it’s > all out of my pocket.. if my Dr ups the amount I take , I’ll have to > research on Inet drugstores ..it’s $40 for 30 here and 3 a day sure > would be expensive ! but worth it IF it relieved the pain !

Hello Anita, I’m sorry, I must have missed your question earlier.  I am taking Neurontin for CDH, and it is the *only* drug that has helped me.  It has not removed the pain entirely, but it has definitely saved my life.  I am taking 800mg x 3 = 2400mg per day.  From what I understand, your one at bedtime will not be enough to get into your system.  Anyone else know about that?  Anyhow, I think that most prescription plans give you a month’s supply, so I currently pay $15 for 90 pills–don’t think I’m gloating because I’m also paying $700/month just to keep my medical insurance and that’s absolutely draining my life’s savings… goodbye house, goodbye retirement .  For me personally, I would have no choice but to pay the $120/month.  Like I said, for me, it saved my life.  If you have the $120, you may want to try it for a month as you should know by then if it’s going to help.  Talk to your doctor; you’ll need a plan for ramping up your dosage (you can’t do it all at once).  Also, ramp yourself up, and then if you find relief, slowly ramp yourself back down to find the efficacy threshold.  I know that 4800mg does me no more good than 2400mg, but it seems to me that I have more frequent flare-ups when I only use 2000mg.  Everyone’s different, so you need to experiment within the supervision of your doctor.  Why pay for or take excess medication, right? Good luck, and I hope you can find some relief! -Deva

Response:

Anita, I think they have a patient assistant program.  I am going to check on that tomorrow.  My doc said he would fill out the paper work if I got the form and if they have it.  If they do I will post it tomorrow. Bonner

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> IS it helping ? I can’t tell if the Neurontin is doing any good at all > since I take ONE at bedtime.. >  The stuff sure is expensive ! I don’t have prescription plan so it’s > all out of my pocket.. if my Dr ups the amount I take , I’ll have to > research on Inet drugstores ..it’s $40 for 30 here and 3 a day sure > would be expensive ! but worth it IF it relieved the pain ! > I’m taking Neurontin 300mg, 3 times a day. > Dick

Response:

Also neurontin comes in a 100ml capsule.  If this med is what you are going to take you might see if you can break it down to 3 times a day.  Having your dose only at one time will not give you the relief you need.  So bottom-line is and your doc should know this is 3 times a day is better then one time a day. Bonner

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> me,too … I don’t understand why I have to take mine (Neurontin 300mg) > at bedtime .. it has a 1/2 life of 5-7 hours .. so that means.. if I go > to bed at 10PM, by 10AM I only have about 75mg in my system .. I’m going > to ask the Dr about that on Thursday,,I thought maybe the pharmicist had > not read the Dr’s script right .. ‘ at bedtime’ ..

Response:

Anita, I am doing drug searches right now, because I no longer have prescription coverage. so I thought I would share this with you. http://auto.search.msn.com/results.asp?cfg=SMCINITIAL&RS=CHECKED&v=1&… FORM=AS5&q=pfizer Share Card Program card.  Scroll down to 8 pfizer products.  They have 1.800 #.  They charge 15 dollars only if you qualify.  Hope this helps.  Oh hell here is the number and questions Q2) How does a patient apply for the Share Card Program?       A2)  To enroll, patients simply call the toll-free enrollment and information hotline (1.800.717.6005). Trained operators initially screen for caller eligibility and then mail an enrollment kit to potential participants. Notably, operators will also help callers locate health and Medicare-related resources in their communities.

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> Anita, > I think they have a patient assistant program.  I am going to check on that > tomorrow.  My doc said he would fill out the paper work if I got the form > and if they have it.  If they do I will post it tomorrow. > Bonner > IS it helping ? I can’t tell if the Neurontin is doing any good at all > since I take ONE at bedtime.. >  The stuff sure is expensive ! I don’t have prescription plan so it’s > all out of my pocket.. if my Dr ups the amount I take , I’ll have to > research on Inet drugstores ..it’s $40 for 30 here and 3 a day sure > would be expensive ! but worth it IF it relieved the pain ! > > I’m taking Neurontin 300mg, 3 times a day. > > Dick

Response:

Anita, Okay first off I do not know if there is any assistance, but there are for other drugs. For example: Lets take this drug Norvac or neurontin 1) I called Pharmacy to see who made the drug 2) I asked if they had the makers phone number.  In my case they did not. 3) After finding out you can call the 1800 # to see if they have a 1800# for that company Now back to Norvac & neurontin Instead of calling the 1800# I found out it was made by parke-davis which is also considered Pfizer.  I went to Pfizer and from there I went to Pfizer products.  I clicked on the share card program.  Then it told me how much I would pay if I qualified. If I qualified it would be 15 dollars per month.  Just a flat fee. 4) I need to find out what their cut off is for assistance. So I scrolled down and found it to be 24000 5) first off I needed my last year tax return.  I then needed to know how much I made for 2001.  Since we filed joint we made XXXX amount of dollars therefore we made more then 24,000.  So we do not qualified. This is where it tells me how much I can make per couple or single. Pfizer recognized that Medicare-enrolled patients who have individual gross incomes of $18,000 (or $24,000 as couples) are truly struggling to afford essential medicines. For example, members of this demographic spend less than $600 per year on drugs-about half of what more affluent individuals spend.1 The consequence is a disproportionate share of poor health outcomes for those Medicare patients most in need. Accordingly, the eligibility threshold was set at a maximum annual income of $18,000 for individuals or $24,000 for couples who file jointly 6)Now if we did qualify I also found out something else they are the makers of another drug I take.  So check and see if this applies also.  I scrolled on down to find other products of theirs. Patients enrolled in the Share Card Program will have access to a multiplicity of prescription drugs manufactured or marketed by Pfizer, including many of those most commonly prescribed to seniors, such as Lipitor

Question:

I have recently been placed on 50mg of Zoloft/day for my depression. For the first two days I had a constant erection, which has now subsided. I am now at day 10. However, I have noticed that now I cannot reach orgasm and my penis has grown. Does anyone here have any input on what I can do about this problem? Has anyone else experienced these types of change? I really haven’t noticed any changes in my mood except that now i feel like I’ve consumed a low dose of LSD. The first two days were horrible. I was nausiated and jittery. I couldn’t concentrate. I was taking ReVia with this so I would not be inclined to drink, but that pill makes me feel awful. I stopped taking Revia on day three and things have gotten a little better. What else can I expect from this/these drug(s)?

Response:

>I really haven’t noticed any changes in my mood except that now i feel like >I’ve consumed a low dose of LSD. The first two days were horrible. I was >nausiated and jittery. I couldn’t concentrate. I was taking ReVia with this >so I would not be inclined to drink, but that pill makes me feel awful. I >stopped taking Revia on day three and things have gotten a little better. >What else can I expect from this/these drug(s)?

Never tried Zoloft but the first time I tried Prozac it induced what felt exactly like an LSD flashback, and just like previous flashbacks it caused my left pupil to dilate.  I tried Prozac several times after (in a recreational attempt) but the sensation never recurred.

Response:

> >I really haven’t noticed any changes in my mood except that now i feel like >I’ve consumed a low dose of LSD. The first two days were horrible. I was >nausiated and jittery. I couldn’t concentrate. I was taking ReVia with this >so I would not be inclined to drink, but that pill makes me feel awful. I >stopped taking Revia on day three and things have gotten a little better. >What else can I expect from this/these drug(s)? > Never tried Zoloft but the first time I tried Prozac it induced what > felt exactly like an LSD flashback, and just like previous flashbacks > it caused my left pupil to dilate.  I tried Prozac several times > after (in a recreational attempt) but the sensation never recurred.

I got the same thing!  The first time I was on Prozac, I had LSD type feelings for almost a week at the beginning.  It was unsettling, but not unpleasant. I have also been on Wellbutrin and Celexa over the years.  Wellbutrin didn’t have the LSD effect.  Celexa had intense "body rushes" for the first week. Anyone know why an antidepressant would trigger LSD type feelings?

Response:

http://www.cs.hmc.edu/~ivl/writing/non_fiction/lsd/

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> >I really haven’t noticed any changes in my mood except that now i feel like > >I’ve consumed a low dose of LSD. The first two days were horrible. I was > >nausiated and jittery. I couldn’t concentrate. I was taking ReVia with this > >so I would not be inclined to drink, but that pill makes me feel awful. I > >stopped taking Revia on day three and things have gotten a little better. > >What else can I expect from this/these drug(s)? > Never tried Zoloft but the first time I tried Prozac it induced what > felt exactly like an LSD flashback, and just like previous flashbacks > it caused my left pupil to dilate.  I tried Prozac several times > after (in a recreational attempt) but the sensation never recurred. > I got the same thing!  The first time I was on Prozac, I had LSD type > feelings for almost a week at the beginning.  It was unsettling, but not > unpleasant. > I have also been on Wellbutrin and Celexa over the years.  Wellbutrin > didn’t have the LSD effect.  Celexa had intense "body rushes" for the > first week. > Anyone know why an antidepressant would trigger LSD type feelings?

Response:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> >I really haven’t noticed any changes in my mood except that now i feel like > >I’ve consumed a low dose of LSD. The first two days were horrible. I was > >nausiated and jittery. I couldn’t concentrate. I was taking ReVia with this > >so I would not be inclined to drink, but that pill makes me feel awful. I > >stopped taking Revia on day three and things have gotten a little better. > >What else can I expect from this/these drug(s)? > Never tried Zoloft but the first time I tried Prozac it induced what > felt exactly like an LSD flashback, and just like previous flashbacks > it caused my left pupil to dilate.  I tried Prozac several times > after (in a recreational attempt) but the sensation never recurred. >I got the same thing!  The first time I was on Prozac, I had LSD type >feelings for almost a week at the beginning.  It was unsettling, but not >unpleasant. >I have also been on Wellbutrin and Celexa over the years.  Wellbutrin >didn’t have the LSD effect.  Celexa had intense "body rushes" for the >first week. >Anyone know why an antidepressant would trigger LSD type feelings?

This fellow drug eater might. They often use SSRIs etc for "trips" it would seem http://users.lycaeum.org/~mort/lsd_05.html [BACKGROUND] So, it’s Thanksgiving Break. I’ve been pretty goddamn bored, spending my time toking. Tuesday rolls around. Standard day. Phone call at one from a friend, who we’ll call H. H and J, my best friend, are coming over, or something. I figure a change of routine will provide an escape from my chronic ennui, so I say ok. Half an hour later, they’re over. Big surprise, though: H gives me 2 hits of acid. Liquid dropped onto a Sweet Tart, or so he claims. I figure it’s probably more like 1 hit, but what the fuck. I buy another 2 hit sweettart from H, as I find low-hit trips to be pretty banal. I also make some impromptu plans. My older brother was flying in Wednesday, and would be here till sunday, so Tuesday was the last night I had before spring break. It was set, then: I would trip that night. J couldn’t come, so it was going to be solo. I’d been wanting to try tripping solo for a while, so I was set, pretty much. Again, I was a bit concerned over whether the acid would work or not. H isn’t really a dealer, but the stuff he gets tends to be of questionable quality. And there was my SSRI’s, 50mg sertraline a day, had been doing it for about two months. I figure that the worst that could happen is that nothing works, and I waste $10. I’d tripped before with the SSRI’s once, but there was also a time when I ate a hit and nothing happened. Ah well. H and I left around 3. I had an appointment at 4, so I took care of that. Coming home, I remembered I’d forgotten to take that day’s dose of sertraline; fixed that. It was around 5. Ate a small dinner at 6. I planned to drop about 7:30-8:00, as with the SSRIs acid seemed to take longer to kick in. I also considered taking some Adderall – a cocktail of pharmaceutical (dextro-)amphetamine salts – with the acid, as I’d heard good things about acid with amphetamines; from what I’d heard, it was nothing like speedy acid. On the contrary, speed takes the edge off acid a bit. It was worth a shot, and I’d had virtually nothing but positive experience with adderall. I gave it a go. After eating dinner, I performed some informal meditation. I’d learned about the importance of set and setting my last trip, and I was determined to make this a positive experience. I cogitated for a bit on what I wanted to achieve with this trip. Now, I’ll go into a bit of background. During the summer, I had a pretty steady flow of cash from an informal job (working for my parent’s business, heh), so money for drugs was no problem. I also wasn’t into pot, in the beginning of the summer anyway. So basically, I had both the money and the time for frequent tripping. I built a lot of experience in those 3 months, but due to some really bad circumstances in August – friend flipping out, parents finding out about drugs – I had to stop indefinitely. Money was also an issue. I was put on sertraline, aka Zoloft, for depression. Fucked around with benzos for a while. Fucked around with ritalin for a while. Then finally, a few weeks ago, I amassed four hits from various sources and daytripped at the Renaissance Fair. It was so different; acid really does seem to change character immensely from trip to trip. While it was quantitavely in the vicinity of 4 hits, it was much different qualitavely, especially the visual aspect. Tripping in broad daylight, something I’d only done with 1.5 hits, might have had something to do with it also. Anyway, I found myself with the opportunity for a classic trip. Maybe would even resemble my first time (which was also solo). I decided that my goals were: [SET] -to further gauge the impact of SSRI’s on acid -to attempt to understand the meaning of a lot of music I’d wanted to listen to whilst frying -to experiment with the acid/adderall combo -to further experiment with the acid/marijuana combo; had done this many times, but they were before I had overly psychedelic effects from pot; -and to use the perspective endowed on me to scope my current position in life, to evaluate where I want to go from here. [SETTING] was going to be my house (primarily, my room), which was where I’d spent almost all of my trips. I figured I’d be off baseline by 9 and peak around 1. I had no idea how/if I was going to get to sleep. My parents wake up early, but they both work. I figured I’d get in bed around 6 am, and either sleep or just trip in bed until my parents got out of the house, which would have been 7-7:30. I had free reign from then until noon or so. I was running low on pot, but I was counting on using all of it that night; I figured I’d sedate myself with mass quantities of it if I really really couldn’t sleep. And, in the event of disaster, I had a milligram of klonopin. I hate the benzo feeling with a passion, but it’s nice to know that there IS a panic button. Shortly before taking the acid, I was hit by a sudden attack of anxiety. Was really weird. I was nervous as hell, but not about anything in particular. It’s not like I was apprehensive about the trip at all; I had all this anxiety, but it was unfocused, not directed towards anything. I took a shit, smoked a cigarette, and it cleared up. [NARRATIVE ^ 11/23/99] 21:10: I take 30mg of Adderall. I had wanted to get this out of the way as early as possible, as it really, really impedes sleep, and I did NOT need that. 21:25: I eat the acid. As mentioned, it was in the form of sweet-tarts. I crunched both of them up and swallowed them. Yum. The quality of said acid was extremely dubitous; H had gotten it from some stranger. One of those guys that claims to make his own acid with moldy rye bread. H claimed that it was good stuff, but he’s said that about a lot of things. 21:25-22:00: I kill time. IRC, guitar. The adderall appeared quite early, maybe around 7:35, 7:40. It put me in a naturally good and stimulated state of mind, which is what I’d been hoping; I anticipated that the adderall would set the stage for the acid and allow a more positive experience. I did have a concern about acid and adderall. Adderall, and Ritalin too, for that matter, turns me into a person I don’t like. With Ritalin (which I stopped doing altogether a while ago), I didn’t notice when I was on it, but as I came down I saw what a prick I’d been. I actually had a lot of personal revelations and insights on a really horrible Rit comedown; they were almost entheogenic in their depth, but unfortunately they didn’t really last that long. That’s a different story, though. Anyway, Adderall makes me a manipulative dick as well, but it allows me to see this, unlike Ritalin. I was worried that the ego dissolution of the acid would do bad things with the ego strengthening of the adderall. As the adderall was starting to kick in, I remembered having absentmindedly taken that sertraline a few hours ago. Fuck! I wasn’t sure if SSRIs inhibited acid short-term; like, if taking an SSRI neutralizes acid. I hoped it didn’t. The time I’d tripped with SSRI’s before, I had refrained from taking my daily dose. 20:00-22:00: Phone rings at 8. It’s H. He’s been kicked out of his house, and needs a place to stay the night. He apparently hadn’t had permission to hang out with us earlier, and his parents are fascists. I didn’t want to get into their business, so I made it clear with him that I was just making sure he had a place to stay for the night. My parents didn’t mind at all, so here I am, driving over to pick up a friend who’s been kicked out of his house while waiting for 4 hits of acid to kick in. Nice. I pick him up, drive back home. We did a bunch of pedestrian stuff; ate, I played guitar for a bit, yadda yadda. The adderall was making me talkative as a mofo, so I was expounding drug knowledge to H, who is, unfortunately, rather tardly as far as believing urban drug myths goes. I educated him on the nature of the drug war and on various rare psychedelics. My state of mind at this point was all waiting. I was waiting for that bizarre acid weirdness, and I wasn’t getting it. I *was* getting extremely vague hallucinations and such, but hey, it was probably because I was looking for them. My analysis of the situation was that the lifting-off feel of the acid was overshadowed by the adderall, which would explain why I had virtually no mental effects, but mild visual effects. 22:45: H and I go out in the backyard to spark a bowl. We have some trouble getting started – it’s windy, my lighters stink, and we had to change a screen – but we … read more »

Response:

I found I grew a third testicle.

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> I have recently been placed on 50mg of Zoloft/day for my depression. For the > first two days I had a constant erection, which has now subsided. I am now > at day 10. However, I have noticed that now I cannot reach orgasm and my > penis has grown. Does anyone here have any input on what I can do about this > problem? Has anyone else experienced these types of change? > I really haven’t noticed any changes in my mood except that now i feel like > I’ve consumed a low dose of LSD. The first two days were horrible. I was > nausiated and jittery. I couldn’t concentrate. I was taking ReVia with this > so I would not be inclined to drink, but that pill makes me feel awful. I > stopped taking Revia on day three and things have gotten a little better. > What else can I expect from this/these drug(s)?

Response:

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> I have recently been placed on 50mg of Zoloft/day for my depression. For the > first two days I had a constant erection, which has now subsided. I am now > at day 10. However, I have noticed that now I cannot reach orgasm and my > penis has grown. Does anyone here have any input on what I can do about this > problem? Has anyone else experienced these types of change? > I really haven’t noticed any changes in my mood except that now i feel like > I’ve consumed a low dose of LSD. The first two days were horrible. I was > nausiated and jittery. I couldn’t concentrate. I was taking ReVia with this > so I would not be inclined to drink, but that pill makes me feel awful. I > stopped taking Revia on day three and things have gotten a little better. > What else can I expect from this/these drug(s)?

you can expect Adverse Reactions Zoloft may cause the following reactions: fast heart rate, palpitations dizziness or lightheadedness fast talking, excited feelings skin rash, itching (hives) unusual tiredness or weakness confusion flushing sweating muscle spasms nausea, vomiting diarrhea decreased appetite weight loss dry mouth vaginitis insomnia headache indigestion, fatigue insomnia nervousness stupor please note Interactions with Drugs and Other Substances Drugs or substances that may interact with Zoloft are: illicit drugs (LSD, cocaine, methamphetamine) http://www.whatmeds.com/meds/zyprexa.html – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text –

Response:

Question:

Large amounts of crossposting. Reams of articles. Both signs of a control freak.

Response:

> ->Large amounts of crossposting. > ->Reams of articles. > ->Both signs of a control freak. > Hey – should you be posting all the headers from this stated control > freak? They are x-no-archived!

       I only do that  a selected few posts meet       certain criteria

Response:

> Poor Ralphy boy.. he still has not figured out who owns this NG

yoo doo. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text ->->Large amounts of crossposting. >->Reams of articles. >->Both signs of a control freak. >Hey – should you be posting all the headers from this stated control >freak? They are x-no-archived! > — > Psychiatry is to Science > as Astrology is to Astronomy

Response:

Volume 1, Number 1 — Summer 1996 INTERNATIONAL JOURNAL OF PSYCHOPATHOLOGY, PSYCHOPHARMACOLOGY AND PSYCHOTHERAPY ISSN: 1088-6710 Hanky-Panky in the Pharmaceutical Industry. Seymour Fisher, Ph.D. Center for Medication Monitoring Department of Psychiatry & Behavioral Sciences University of Texas Medical Branch Galveston TX 77555-0441 ABSTRACT This paper reprints three essays that were originally distributed on the Internet, to the Psychopharmacology Forum of InterPsych, in the latter half of 1995. Part I is a factually based account of how a pharmaceutical company unethically intervened in the publication of a scientific article reporting clinical results inimical to that company’s interests. A follow-up Part II offered additional documentation of drug companies’ influence on academic research, and further raised questions as to the industry’s pervasive influence on the training of young physicians. Part III revealed some of my thinking behind the hope that the public can be aroused to bring moral pressure on the pharmaceutical industry. Cite as: Fisher S Hanky-Panky in the Pharmaceutical Industry. Int J Psychopath Psychopharmacol Psychother 1996, 1 (1). URL http://www.psycom.net/ijppp.v1n1.html PART I (First posted on the Internet in late July 1995) Does the pharmaceutical industry want clinicians and patients to learn more about possible side effects of newly marketed drugs? I think the time has come to make public just one egregious example of how individual drug companies can influence the publication of clinical research results that are not in their best financial interests. (I also have documented instances of how insidiously the pharmaceutical industry can influence publication of other manuscripts and even NIH support of research projects dealing with adverse drug reactions of newly marketed drugs. But that’s another story for, perhaps, another time.) First, however, for those who do not know me, I’d like to point out that I have nothing to gain personally by going public with this issue. I’m just about 70 years of age, and my academic credentials and career don’t need any embellishing (a brief resume can be found in "Who’s Who in America"). Next, I urge you to read the article on "Postmarketing Surveillance by Patient Self-Monitoring: Preliminary Data for Sertraline versus Fluoxetine" in the July, 1995 issue of the Journal of Clinical Psychiatry (1995;56:288-296). This paper is based on large-scale data indicating that many adverse reactions known to be induced by fluoxetine (Prozac) were being reported with even greater frequency by sertraline (Zoloft) patients; the tables also include suggestions to the clinician for age and gender patient types most at risk. Zoloft is manufactured by Pfizer Incorporated (Roerig Division). The manuscript was accepted for publication on May 12, 1994. On December 8, 1994 the Editor wrote me to say that he had become "concerned that our largely clinician readership might interpret the results more literally than our investigator colleagues. This apprehension led me to draft the accompanying commentary, which I would like to publish along with your article." Although none of the journal’s three reviewers who had originally recommended publication voiced this apprehension, the Editor’s proposed commentary was entitled "What will this drug do to me, doctor?", and tacitly implied that our results and conclusions might be spurious. I replied to this letter on December 20, showing that most of the substantive criticisms he raised in his proposed commentary were simply not valid, suggesting instead that the research results along with the article’s carefully qualified discussion of the results should be able to speak for themselves. Letter from the Editor dated December 30: "I have revised and (I hope you will agree) ’softened’ some of my comments. I hope you will be more comfortable with the current draft." His revised commentary included sentences such as "It would be simplistic and premature, however, to treat this report as gospel and conclude that in reality sertraline produces a higher frequency of unwanted reactions than does fluoxetine." And the final paragraph was to be: "The report by Fisher et al. is thought- provoking and can frame hypotheses for additional testing. The actual incidence of side effects of these two SSRIs will become clearer with time and additional study." (Similar caveats were actually included in the discussion section of the article, but without the pejorative flavor of the proposed Editorial.) By February of 1995, when we had not yet received page proof nine months after acceptance of the article, I phoned the editorial office for information. I was told it was scheduled for the May issue. However, in April when we had still not received either page or galley proof, and when a follow-up phone call elicited the information that the publication date was now postponed until July, I undertook a quickie "research project." This led to a letter I wrote to the Editor on May 1, in which I expressed the view that publication of his proposed Commentary would be grossly unfair unless I was also given the opportunity to respond to the Editorial. What follows was my proposed rebuttal: COMMENTARY ON "What will this drug do to me, doctor?" In this issue, an article by Fisher (Fisher S, Kent TA, and Bryant SG, 1995) presents data from more than 2,700 fluoxetine and sertraline patients using a well-validated postmarketing surveillance method developed to signal possible adverse drug reactions (ADRs). The preliminary results indicated that many adverse reactions known to be induced by fluoxetine were being reported with substantially greater frequency by sertraline patients. The article is accompanied by an Editorial Commentary (Gelenberg AJ, 1995), admonishing readers not to "conclude that in reality sertraline produces a higher frequency of unwanted reactions than does fluoxetine." Certainly this could be a premature conclusion to draw. But a legitimate question can be raised as to why this particular paper is being singled out when the implied "conclusions" in more than 90% of the papers published in this Journal and in other psychiatric journals are also generally subject to alternative interpretations, not all of which may be equally plausible. The Editor notes that a bias could have been introduced because we relied "on a comparatively small percentage of volunteers [almost 20%] out of an approached population." But all postmarketing surveillance studies use only a minute sample of the total population of interest (Baum C and Anello C, 1989). The more salient question is whether there is reason based on empirical evidence to believe that the final selected samples favor one drug group over the other. If selection causes a bias in our method, we should not have been able to detect in our validation studies so many of the commonly accepted ADRs for various drugs (Fisher S, 1995; Fisher S, Bryant SG and Kent TA, 1993). However, it is always possible in any postmarketing surveillance method that volunteer subjects (including physicians who are urged to report possible ADRs to the FDA) or even medical record samples could introduce a bias. Similarly, although the Editor questions "whether this technique is well suited for comparing incidences of adverse events between a newer and an older agent," he also acknowledges that results from our past studies along with the statistical controls used in the data analyses suggest that what we were seeing in this sertraline study is not simply a "newer drug" phenomenon. So, again, why the red-flag editorial? A review of 119 articles published in this Journal from July 1993 through April 1995 (excluding supplements, monographs, and the October 1994 issue, which was unavailable) offers some clues. The mean article length was slightly less than six pages (skewed upward by a few longer papers); the mean publication lag, defined as the number of months between the date of acceptance and the published issue date, was eight months — for which most authors are grateful to the Editor. Only two of the 119 articles were not published until 11 months after acceptance, and none had a lag of one year or more. There was no relationship between the length of an article and the publication lag. While some issues of the Journal included a "commentary" on a specific paper, none of them were signed by the Editor. In fact, a cursory search through issues dating back to 1990 found only one previous Editorial, which also focused on adverse drug reactions (Gelenberg AJ, 1992). Yet, our sertraline paper not only prompted an Editorial, but publication was delayed more than a year after it was formally accepted on May 12, 1994. During the past four years of the 10-year development of our postmarketing method [continuously supported by the National Institute of Mental Health along with other nonpharmaceutical funding sources], we have became acutely aware of the fact that, once a new drug has been marketed, many pharmaceutical companies clearly do not want their drugs to be carefully monitored for possible ADRs — in particular, not by any method that can systematically and sensitively compare possible ADR profiles. The Editor of this Journal is to be commended for having the courage to publish our sertraline/fluoxetine paper, but one cannot help wonder to what degree external pressures may have contributed to both the publication delay and the need for a cautionary Editorial. Presently, the ultimate clinical preference for one psychopharmacological agent over another is mainly determined not so much by true differences in therapeutic efficacy (most antidepressants in most situations are about equally effective) but by presumed … read more »

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hi Carol… a lot of what you are mentioning is mentioned in the book "Prozac Backlash". I picked up a copy of it and read it. The author describes the pharmacology of the meds and exactly how they impact the neurotransmitters in our brains. Here is a link to the book from amazon.com: http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/0743200624/qid=1018763310/sr=8… sr_8_3_1/104-2453826-0711126 After about 10 years on SSRIs, I also – can’t find the right words at times – will lose my train of thought mid-sentence. It’s like my brain just shuts off. – my reading comprehension is poor; I have to re-read things numerous times to fully comprehend them – my memory/retention is extremely poor, both short term and long term However, SSRIs and my other meds keep me balanced enough to be a "work in progress". Without them I am just a depressed, dull grey canvas. Thanks for sharing, Carol. You express yourself extremely well. — regards, Compucat  >^+^<

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> For me, it isn’t a question.  I am my mid-20’s and am pretty positive > that I’ve experienced subtle brain damage after taking SSRI’s for 3 > years and quitting them over a year ago.  Just curious, anyone notice > the following "bad brain" effects after quitting medication: > 1.) Decreased vividness and memory of dreams (or no dreams at all.) > yes.  I rarely dream anymore. > 2.) Trouble finding words > yes. I notice when talking to people that I frequently grope for words > and have trouble quickly coming up with something to say.  My mind has > completely lost its agility and quickness, though I find writing to be > somewhat easier.  When people are speaking to me, or joking around, I > have trouble keeping up. (This wasn’t the case prior to the meds) > 3.) Trouble with fine-motor coordination > yes.  My handwriting has taken on a shaky look, and I have more > trouble with needlepoint and guitar. > 4.) Decreased imagination > yes.  I feel permanently trapped in the mundanity of the present.  My > world has taken on an increasingly flat appearance (I’ve considered > aging to be a possible cause, but I’m only 26, and I notice these > difficulties run almost directly parallel to the timing of the > medication.)  I’ve been off meds for over a year and notice almost > zero improvement in my word-retention and ability to ‘imagine’ things > (I wish I could explain this better…It just feels as though my > thoughts have to push through caramel in order to get through!) > 5.) Decreased memory > yes. both short and long-term > 6.) Deadened emotions > yes.  I feel as though the pleasure center in my brain is partially > gone, although  I can still enjoy food and drink. > That’s just a few of the effects I’ve noticed.  Some are more subtle > than others.  Anyone else experience this? > Note: This is not to discourage the use of medication.  I would not be > alive today if it weren’t for the need for an SSRI to intervene as I > was in a major crisis in school and was seriously considering suicide. > The mistake I made was continuing with the medication long after > things stabilized. > Although not exactly brain dead (though I experience moments in > darkness wondering how I will ever form a meaningful friendship in > the limited shell of consciousness that I’m in) I am definitely NOT > the same person that I used to be prior to the medication.  I feel > like a zombie emotionally.  I cannot remember things nearly as well I > used to, and frequently call off gatherings with family and friends > because I cannot fake this emotion for long.  I have also become very > inarticulate (as my prose here doesn’t exactly show–or perhaps it > does?)  My most significant problem is the inability to utter a > complete sentence without stumbling at least once.  DO NOT tell me > this is just anxiety or depression—I NEVER had this problem before. > It feels too real and bizarre to be a product of my imagination. > I feel dreadfully inarticulate.  I would do anything to get my mental > powers back. > It amazes me that even my own doctor scoffs at the possibility that > the meds caused permanent damage, though I guess I shouldn’t be > surprised since he’s being paid a handsome sum to prescribe.  Perhaps > I should consult a neurologist instead? > That’s enough for now.  (The meds I took were Zoloft and Paxil.) > Or maybe it isn’t the meds (as my psychiatrist stated?)  Could I have > the gene for early Alzheimers? > Somehow I doubt it.  This decline has *only* been within the last 2 > years and seems to mirror (coincidentally) the timing of my usage of > SSRIs. > Thanks for reading this.  Any feedback would be appreciated. > Carol

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> 1.) Decreased vividness and memory of dreams (or no dreams at all.)

no… quite the opposite.. i have recurrent nightmares all the time…possibly this is a side effect of my mood stabiliser i’ve just started on as well (sodium valproate… anyone heard of that effect before?) > 2.) Trouble finding words

yes, definately – although this for me is also a symtom of my depression and mania… i also have become a bit dyslexic/dyspraxic…. > 3.) Trouble with fine-motor coordination

no… this was one of my biggest concerns as i’m a professional musician and graphic artist… my spelling / coordination for typing are shocking at the moment thoug… > 4.) Decreased imagination

no… again, see above… although i do have difficulty with concentration… particularly on high doses… i wonder if it depends on the medications? i’m on Sertraline (zoloft)… i wonder if Prozac tends more towards these side fx…? > 5.) Decreased memory

definately, especially on high doses. again its part of my depression/mania too, so its confusing to isolate. > 6.) Deadened emotions

strangely im the opposite. only when i’ve been really depressed and needed to go on a high dose (like now) have i felt deadening of emotions… and i’ve only stayed on high doses briefly. but i have totally lost the taste for food…. hth. take care m — ~~~~~>><:>~~~~~ iriXx "sometimes i get overcharged thats when you see sparks you ask me where the hell i’m going at a thousand feet per second…" radiohead – the tourist

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- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – > informed me of this: > < My most significant problem is the inability to utter a > <complete sentence without stumbling at least once. > I have this problem when I become manic. It could be possible that > these symptoms you see now are things that would have come to be with > or without an AD. You need to talk to a pdoc about it, tho he is > likely to be bias. The deadening of emotion is not a normal affect of > ADs, but people have some strange side effects and you are not the > first here to think that they have had permanent changes in brain > function caused by meds and the increase in tremors in the fingers and > hands is pretty common thing to see increase. See the doctor. > xp

actually i get this when im manic as well, along with poor concentration… i also get problems with concentration with depression… so the SSRIs have actually helped there, in a way… more later… m — ~~~~~>><:>~~~~~ iriXx "sometimes i get overcharged thats when you see sparks you ask me where the hell i’m going at a thousand feet per second…" radiohead – the tourist

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For me, it isn’t a question.  I am my mid-20’s and am pretty positive that I’ve experienced subtle brain damage after taking SSRI’s for 3 years and quitting them over a year ago.  Just curious, anyone notice the following "bad brain" effects after quitting medication: 1.) Decreased vividness and memory of dreams (or no dreams at all.) yes.  I rarely dream anymore. 2.) Trouble finding words yes. I notice when talking to people that I frequently grope for words and have trouble quickly coming up with something to say.  My mind has completely lost its agility and quickness, though I find writing to be somewhat easier.  When people are speaking to me, or joking around, I have trouble keeping up. (This wasn’t the case prior to the meds) 3.) Trouble with fine-motor coordination yes.  My handwriting has taken on a shaky look, and I have more trouble with needlepoint and guitar. 4.) Decreased imagination yes.  I feel permanently trapped in the mundanity of the present.  My world has taken on an increasingly flat appearance (I’ve considered aging to be a possible cause, but I’m only 26, and I notice these difficulties run almost directly parallel to the timing of the medication.)  I’ve been off meds for over a year and notice almost zero improvement in my word-retention and ability to ‘imagine’ things (I wish I could explain this better…It just feels as though my thoughts have to push through caramel in order to get through!) 5.) Decreased memory yes. both short and long-term 6.) Deadened emotions yes.  I feel as though the pleasure center in my brain is partially gone, although  I can still enjoy food and drink. That’s just a few of the effects I’ve noticed.  Some are more subtle than others.  Anyone else experience this? Note: This is not to discourage the use of medication.  I would not be alive today if it weren’t for the need for an SSRI to intervene as I was in a major crisis in school and was seriously considering suicide. The mistake I made was continuing with the medication long after things stabilized. Although not exactly brain dead (though I experience moments in darkness wondering how I will ever form a meaningful friendship in the limited shell of consciousness that I’m in) I am definitely NOT the same person that I used to be prior to the medication.  I feel like a zombie emotionally.  I cannot remember things nearly as well I used to, and frequently call off gatherings with family and friends because I cannot fake this emotion for long.  I have also become very inarticulate (as my prose here doesn’t exactly show–or perhaps it does?)  My most significant problem is the inability to utter a complete sentence without stumbling at least once.  DO NOT tell me this is just anxiety or depression—I NEVER had this problem before. It feels too real and bizarre to be a product of my imagination. I feel dreadfully inarticulate.  I would do anything to get my mental powers back.   It amazes me that even my own doctor scoffs at the possibility that the meds caused permanent damage, though I guess I shouldn’t be surprised since he’s being paid a handsome sum to prescribe.  Perhaps I should consult a neurologist instead? That’s enough for now.  (The meds I took were Zoloft and Paxil.)   Or maybe it isn’t the meds (as my psychiatrist stated?)  Could I have the gene for early Alzheimers? Somehow I doubt it.  This decline has *only* been within the last 2 years and seems to mirror (coincidentally) the timing of my usage of SSRIs. Thanks for reading this.  Any feedback would be appreciated. Carol

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> My son used to take Celexa and I believe he took it in the morning.  It > couldn’t hurt for you to try for a few days and see what happens.  I always > take my prozac in the morning, but then the pdoc recommends that as well.

i take an SSRI too, sertraline (Zoloft)… i was told to take it in the morning because SSRIs have a mild stimulant effect and can cause sleep disturbance if you take them at night… what matters i think is that you take them at the same time each day, regardless of when… hugs m — ~~~~~~>><:>~~~~~~ iriXx " you can try the best you can    you can try the best you can …the best you can is good enough" radiohead: optomistic

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hi there.. Here is my current med regime – my question follows: Morning: 37.5 mg Effexor  <— am being weaned off this, won’t take it next week              900 mg Gabapentin Evening:  50 mg. Celexa              1200 mg. Gabapentin Okay you Celexa folks, do you take your Celexa in the morning on in the evening? I am starting to think it may not be the best med for me to take at night as I am not sleeping well. I get 3-4 hours very light sleep if I don’t take a sleep med, or 5 – 6 hours of a deeper sleep if I give in and take 7.5 mg. Imovane (Canadian non-benzodiazepine sleep med). Gabapentin folks – do you think it is the Gabapentin keeping me on such a light sleep regime? thanks so much everyone, Compucat  >^+^<

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- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – > hi there.. > Here is my current med regime – my question follows: > Morning: 37.5 mg Effexor  <— am being weaned off this, won’t take it next > week >              900 mg Gabapentin > Evening:  50 mg. Celexa >              1200 mg. Gabapentin > Okay you Celexa folks, do you take your Celexa in the morning on in the > evening? I am starting to think it may not be the best med for me to take at > night as I am not sleeping well. I get 3-4 hours very light sleep if I don’t > take a sleep med, or 5 – 6 hours of a deeper sleep if I give in and take 7.5 > mg. Imovane (Canadian non-benzodiazepine sleep med).

My son used to take Celexa and I believe he took it in the morning.  It couldn’t hurt for you to try for a few days and see what happens.  I always take my prozac in the morning, but then the pdoc recommends that as well. > Gabapentin folks – do you think it is the Gabapentin keeping me on such a > light sleep regime?

Fo me I am having a lot of trouble with neurontin (gabapentin) making me sleepy.  I take a larger dose of it at bedtime and it usually helps me to sleep better.  But then that just shows how different we all are with the same meds. I hope your sleep gets better soon Compucat. Bonnie – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> thanks so much everyone, > Compucat  >^+^<

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> Take deep breaths…maybe a hot bath.  This too shall pass.  It is > only temporary.  It can…and it will…get better. > –bethster

thats a really good suggestion, there are many natural things that you can try that can help relieve your anxiety too… try adding a few drops of lavender oil into your bath… it has relaxing properties, also helps you to sleep… chamomile tea is very good for anxiety… i also do relaxation exercises, very simple ones, starting with my feet, i slowly clench one muscle at a time and relax it, and work my way up to my head… while im doing this i just take nice relaxed deep breaths… the effort of concentrating on doing this can be enough to distract you for a while too, and it feels like you’re giving your whole body a massage which is rather nice ))) distraction is very useful for anxiety and panic, if you feel able to try reading a book, or phoning a friend for a chat, things that occupy your mind help you to stop thinking about the feelings you’re getting… which can make you worry all the more, and round it goes… you can stop it in its tracks sometimes just simply by distracting yourself with something nice… i know some more specific techniques if you’re having worries about particular things or events rather than general feelings of anxiety and panic… they’re a bit more involved though. take care and let us know how you are doing m — ~~~~~>><:>~~~~~ iriXx version: 3.12 GMU/FA/O/U/AT d? s-:+ a C++++$ UL>++++$ UI>+++ P+ L+++ E W+++$ N* o- K- w– O- M+$ V– PS+++ PE— Y++ PGP(++) t- 5? X? R !tv b+++ DI(+) D? G+ e+++(++++) h* r++ x? UF+++

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>I am doing bad now. Real bad. I cry, panic, just plain need to get away from >myself. It is bad. I cry & cry, I am so tired, yet am having problems sleeping. >I have been off meds for 4 months, and the last med I was perscribed was >prozac. I am too afraid to take it, and I cannot waite for a med to kick in. >What can I do? Please, suggest something. Also, i heard prozac makes you more >anxious at first couple days.

It sounds like you need to go back on meds.  You might need to try something else besides prozac, but you ought to at least try whatever prozac you have left and make an appointment to see a psychiatrist as soon as you can.  The doctor can prescribe clonazepam, xanax, or numerous other drugs to help with anxiety.

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(((((((((((((hugs)))))))))))))) it does sound like you’re having a very tough time hon, i would say, please do visit your family doctor or p-doc as soon as you can, im sure they can give you some relief that will help straight away.. i was in a similiar situation 4 years ago and was prescribed 2 meds, one to relieve the panic straight away (and it was non-addictive too) and am antidepressant as a longer-term solution. there are many different types of meds, do explain to your doc the troubles that you had with prozac, because docs do understand that people react differently to different meds. i am taking Zoloft (sertraline, known as Lustral in the UK) which has helped me a lot with anxiety as well as depression, it has a calming effect on me. Zoloft is an SSRI antidepressant, like prozac, but doesnt have the tension side effects, there are many alternatives that your doctor would be able to suggest. i do hope that you can get some relief soon, we are here if you feel you want to write more or just let out how you’re feeling take care m > I am doing bad now. Real bad. I cry, panic, just plain need to get away from > myself. It is bad. I cry & cry, I am so tired, yet am having problems sleeping. > I have been off meds for 4 months, and the last med I was perscribed was > prozac. I am too afraid to take it, and I cannot waite for a med to kick in. > What can I do? Please, suggest something. Also, i heard prozac makes you more > anxious at first couple days.

– ~~~~~>><:>~~~~~ iriXx version: 3.12 GMU/FA/O/U/AT d? s-:+ a C++++$ UL>++++$ UI>+++ P+ L+++ E W+++$ N* o- K- w– O- M+$ V– PS+++ PE— Y++ PGP(++) t- 5? X? R !tv b+++ DI(+) D? G+ e+++(++++) h* r++ x? UF+++

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> I am doing bad now. Real bad. I cry, panic, just plain need to get away from > myself. It is bad. I cry & cry, I am so tired, yet am having problems sleeping. > I have been off meds for 4 months, and the last med I was perscribed was > prozac. I am too afraid to take it, and I cannot waite for a med to kick in. > What can I do? Please, suggest something. Also, i heard prozac makes you more > anxious at first couple days.

Is there some place local that you can get a hold of? Like you I haven’t had any meds for about two months now, and my pdoc retired. Last week was bad, and I got hold of a centre here that deals with people in trouble like ours. I didn’t consider myself an emergency case, so I met an assessment person, and have an appointment with another pdoc shortly. I could have been dealt with immediately. Maybe even emerge would work for you if desparate. Sorry I can’t be more help than this. jodelli

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Hello Marypoohbear, Things can get very frightening at times can’t they?  I have trouble with panic attacks and that is even with meds so I know you must be really miserable.  Is there anyone there with you tonight?  Is there someone there you know and trust that you can talk to just to get some of your feelings out?  Or maybe a friend you can call and talk to?  Sometimes it helps a little to talk about all that is bothering you so at least you can get your feelings out.  I find that when I hold my feelings in that they grow and become more painful.  If there is no one there you can talk to then maybe there is some kind of a crisis line you can call? Tomorrow can you call and set up an appointment with your doc or pdoc so you can see about getting back on meds?  If you feel this badly then you would probably benefit from getting whatever kind of help you could get.  In the meantime if you feel too badly tonight please do not hesitate to go to the emergency room and explain how you are and have been feeling.  They should be able to help you for now and maybe even  help you to get in to see a pdoc sooner than if you just called to set up an appointment. Whatever you do, you know you can always write your feelings here and you will find others that are understanding of them.  I have done that many times before and I have always found others that knew what I was talking about and were very understanding of my feelings. I hope you feel better soon and you are able to get some help, Hugs, Bonnie

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> I am doing bad now. Real bad. I cry, panic, just plain need to get away from > myself. It is bad. I cry & cry, I am so tired, yet am having problems sleeping. > I have been off meds for 4 months, and the last med I was perscribed was > prozac. I am too afraid to take it, and I cannot waite for a med to kick in. > What can I do? Please, suggest something. Also, i heard prozac makes you more > anxious at first couple days.

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Hi Marypoohbear,     I’m sorry that you are in such a sad state of mind.  If you are frightened and feeling alone please try to get help.  Talk to your pdoc for example; or if you feel the situation has reach a urgent level, go to the emergency ward.     What ever you decide, please know that people are thinking about you and you are not completely alone.  I wish you the best. Peter

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> I am doing bad now. Real bad. I cry, panic, just plain need to get away from > myself. It is bad. I cry & cry, I am so tired, yet am having problems sleeping. > I have been off meds for 4 months, and the last med I was perscribed was > prozac. I am too afraid to take it, and I cannot waite for a med to kick in. > What can I do? Please, suggest something. Also, i heard prozac makes you more > anxious at first couple days.

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I am doing bad now. Real bad. I cry, panic, just plain need to get away from myself. It is bad. I cry & cry, I am so tired, yet am having problems sleeping. I have been off meds for 4 months, and the last med I was perscribed was prozac. I am too afraid to take it, and I cannot waite for a med to kick in. What can I do? Please, suggest something. Also, i heard prozac makes you more anxious at first couple days.

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Question:

Even though the package insert for Prozac and the Physicians Desk Reference list no sexual side effects for Prozac when taken for depression, a review of the current literature will tell you that from 40 to 80 per cent of patients expereience sexual dysfunction with the SSRI’s.  For me, Prozac has caused a drastic reduction on libido, an inability to sustain an erection, difficulty in achieving orgasm and much less pleasurable sensation.   My psychiatrist recommended cutting the dosage of Prozac in half to 10 mg.day. This did not help. In fact, I had a relapse and went back to 20 mg a day of Prozac.   He is now recommending adding 75 mg of Wellbutrin SR per day to augment the Prozac and hopefuly relieve the sexual dysfunction.  I would really appretiate anyone who has taken this combination letting me know if it worked to reverse the sexual dusfunction.  Also, I take 3 to 4 mg of Xanax a day to alleviate the anxiety caused by the Prozac, and am therefore concerned about any increased agitation caused by the addition of the Wellbutrin. My psychiatrist said I was too concerned about increased agitation;  he stated I could simply increase the dosage of Xanax.  However, he did no realize I was taking 3 to 4 mg a day of Xanax.  He had thought I was taking three to 4 0.25 mg tablets a day rather than 3 to 4 mg even though he wrote the prescription.  He said he had failed to check my chart when he approved the increase from 3 to 4 mg per day when I told him that I was having a relapse. Note:  I had *no* sexual dysfuntion and minimal anxiety problems prior to taking Prozac.  My depression had no effect on these areas. Also, interested in any other solutions people have attempted and their results;  ie.: Switching to Serzone or augmenting an SSRI with Serzone Switching to Remeon or augmenting an SSRI with Remeron (My psychiatrist did not recommend Remeron because he said it was too new and caused excessive sedation, more so than Serzone). Really appreciate some real life expereiences and not just material read from medical journals.  Thanks!!!

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> (My psychiatrist did not recommend Remeron because he said it was too > new and caused excessive sedation, more so than Serzone). > Really appreciate some real life expereiences and not just material > read from medical journals.  Thanks!!!

That’s true about Remeron.  It makes people fat too.   I’d suggest getting off Xanax – it’s a benzodiazepine, and they’re addictive. Gingko biloba tablets may help with the sexual dysfunction side: www.sexual-enhancement-gingko.com   A sugary meal/drink may help.

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http://www.sexual-enhancement-gingko.com/sexual-enhancement.htm There is general agreement of a low risk associated with Ginkgo extract products. In one study , gingko biloba by itself, improved erectile dysfunction in a group of impotent males after six months of use. The discovery of Ginkgo biloba extract’s (GBE) ability to reverse antidepressant-induced sexual dysfunction was reported in patients studied over a 6-8 week period. Five patients treated for DSM-IV diagnosis of Depression with an SSRI (fluoxetine or sertraline) developed sexual dysfunction during the course of their treatment. The three men in the study reported anorgasmia, decreased libido, and erectile failure. The two women had anorgasmia, delayed orgasm and decreased libido. Each patient was started on a course of GBE 60 mg. (50:1 extract) twice a day. In another study, each patient chose to continue the treatment for an open ended period with clinical monitoring of symptoms. Three patients described brief periods of discontinuation of the GBE with a concomitant return of the ASD. The male patients,ages 45, 42, and 38, each had a single episode of non- psychotic major depression. The women, 48 and 49, had recurrent, unipolar depression, non-psychotic. Both women also had Hashimoto’s thyroiditis. Their thyroid indices were normal on replacement T-4. There were no other medical conditions, nor substance abuse problems. Adverse reactions to the GBE were minimal and did not disrupt the treatment. Some gastro-intestinal complaints and lightheadedness were reported. No abnormal bleeding nor bruising occurred.

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i tried just about all the usuall treatments for sexual dysfuntion and nothing worked.   cyproheptadine,  stimulants and so on did nothing. very low dose zoloft worked but it might not be enough to treat your depression. i found with the effexor tablets i could get a few hours a day of normal sexual function before having to take the days dosage. i eventually just gave up – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – >Even though the package insert for Prozac and the Physicians Desk >Reference list no sexual side effects for Prozac when taken for >depression, a review of the current literature will tell you that from >40 to 80 per cent of patients expereience sexual dysfunction with the >SSRI’s.  For me, Prozac has caused a drastic reduction on libido, an >inability to sustain an erection, difficulty in achieving orgasm and >much less pleasurable sensation.   >My psychiatrist recommended cutting the dosage of Prozac in half to 10 >mg.day. This did not help. In fact, I had a relapse and went back to >20 mg a day of Prozac.   He is now recommending adding 75 mg of >Wellbutrin SR per day to augment the Prozac and hopefuly relieve the >sexual dysfunction.  I would really appretiate anyone who has taken >this combination letting me know if it worked to reverse the sexual >dusfunction.  Also, I take 3 to 4 mg of Xanax a day to alleviate the >anxiety caused by the Prozac, and am therefore concerned about any >increased agitation caused by the addition of the Wellbutrin. My >psychiatrist said I was too concerned about increased agitation;  he >stated I could simply increase the dosage of Xanax.  However, he did >no realize I was taking 3 to 4 mg a day of Xanax.  He had thought I >was taking three to 4 0.25 mg tablets a day rather than 3 to 4 mg even >though he wrote the prescription.  He said he had failed to check my >chart when he approved the increase from 3 to 4 mg per day when I told >him that I was having a relapse. >Note:  I had *no* sexual dysfuntion and minimal anxiety problems prior >to taking Prozac.  My depression had no effect on these areas. >Also, interested in any other solutions people have attempted and >their results;  ie.: >Switching to Serzone or augmenting an SSRI with Serzone >Switching to Remeon or augmenting an SSRI with Remeron >(My psychiatrist did not recommend Remeron because he said it was too >new and caused excessive sedation, more so than Serzone). >Really appreciate some real life expereiences and not just material >read from medical journals.  Thanks!!!

Response:

Question:

Taking down the tree….putting away the decorations….looking forward to Spring. — LyndaNP Reality isn’t the way you wish things to be, nor the way they appear to be, but the way they actually are. – Robert J. Ringer

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> Taking down the tree….putting away the decorations….looking forward > to Spring.

Yes. Great isn’t it! I hate all the enforced jollity of Xmas… I’m new here btw.. I’m almost certainly bipolar (maybe *only* cyclothymic)… the docs seem a bit unsure… atm I’m seeing a clinical psychologist for ‘assessment’… This seems like a nice place… — Steven http://www.davecovcomedy.com/

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Time to start your Tomato seedlings!  I have to start telling myself that now, so I can procrastinate a month and still plant them in time. Ralph Vi,  world’s only Linux and Aol user. To email, remove those sicklids.  They keep eating my Mollies

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> — > Steven > http://www.davecovcomedy.com/

Hi Steven, I love your link – I am a Python fanatic – and I go into convulsions over the Mouse Episode of "Fawlty Towers".  "You put Basil in the Ratattouille?" Squiggles

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> I’m new here btw.. I’m almost certainly bipolar (maybe *only* > cyclothymic)… the docs seem a bit unsure… atm I’m seeing a > clinical psychologist for ‘assessment’…

Can y’all tell me the differences between bipolar and cyclothymic? — Wordy, Radiant Sun to the Galaxy of Controversy

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- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> I’m new here btw.. I’m almost certainly bipolar (maybe *only* > cyclothymic)… the docs seem a bit unsure… atm I’m seeing a > clinical psychologist for ‘assessment’… > Can y’all tell me the differences between bipolar and cyclothymic? > — > Wordy, > Radiant Sun to the > Galaxy of Controversy

Here is a site with definitions; just click on the left; cyclothymic literally means change or cycle in mood – how it’s used may be a matter of stressing degree of manic-depression swings: http://www.mentalhealth.com/fr20.html Squiggles

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> Taking down the tree….putting away the decorations….looking forward > to Spring.

im  going to choose to bum you all out by feeling sorry for myself. no tree, no decorations, no family, no party, no love. none for me this year. big flat NUTHIN. not even allowed to feel the feelings i felt. just cold. ice, freezing, coldness. i hate my family and i hope they die violent painful lonely deaths somewhere far away from me, and that i get my daughter home where she belongs asap. i mean that. in case you thought i was kidding, let me say it again. i hope that my stepmother and my father die vicious violent lonely painful deaths far away from everyone they care about (although they dont care about anyone so that is kind of meaningless) and that my daughter and i live the rest of our lives as far away from them and their insanity as we can possibly get ourselves. so there. i need a miracle this holiday. thats what its gonna take. gonna go have coffee now. you can return to your regularly scheduled humanity. > — > LyndaNP > Reality isn’t the way you wish things to be, nor the way > they appear to be, but the way they actually are. > – Robert J. Ringer

– its a buck:  dancer’s choice, my friend better take my advice – you know all the rules by now and the fire from the ice. think this through with me; let me know your mind oh, what i want to know is – are you kind ? ~~ blessed are we to dwell in these beautiful temples ~~

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- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> Taking down the tree….putting away the decorations….looking forward > to Spring. > im  going to choose to bum you all out by feeling sorry for myself. no > tree, no decorations, no family, no party, no love. > none for me this year. big flat NUTHIN. > not even allowed to feel the feelings i felt. just cold. ice, freezing, > coldness. > i hate my family and i hope they die violent painful lonely deaths > somewhere far away from me, and that i get my daughter home where she > belongs asap. > i mean that. in case you thought i was kidding, let me say it again. i > hope that my stepmother and my father die vicious violent lonely painful > deaths far away from everyone they care about (although they dont care > about anyone so that is kind of meaningless) and that my daughter and i > live the rest of our lives as far away from them and their insanity as > we can possibly get ourselves. > so there. > i need a miracle this holiday. thats what its gonna take. gonna go have > coffee now. you can return to your regularly scheduled humanity. > — > LyndaNP > Reality isn’t the way you wish things to be, nor the way > they appear to be, but the way they actually are. > – Robert J. Ringer > —

Anna, I am sorry – i forget how bad your situation is; please feel free to rant as much as you like. I don’t know what kind of advice to give, i’m rather misanthropic myself.  Actually, I do just well among people who are gentle, but most groups I know and relatives and so forth are just so aggressive, that I want to hide.  This is what I miss about my world – academia the most.  I should have been a monk or a monkette, lol. Squiggles

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>>– >Steven >http://www.davecovcomedy.com/ > Hi Steven, > I love your link – I am a Python fanatic – and > I go into convulsions over the Mouse Episode of > "Fawlty Towers".  "You put Basil in the Ratattouille?"

Hi Squiggles… Just before Xmas my girlfriend and I sat down and enjoyed the Boxed Set of Fawlty Towers… two episodes a night… great stuff. I love loads of different kinds of comedy… the link I used points to the more mainstream sort… my favourite kind is the Chris Morris type of savage satire. VERY cathartic. ) — Steven http://www.davecovcomedy.com/

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>> Taking down the tree….putting away the decorations….looking forward > to Spring. > Yes. Great isn’t it! I hate all the enforced jollity of Xmas…

I’m with you on that one, Steve! – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> I’m new here btw.. I’m almost certainly bipolar (maybe *only* > cyclothymic)… the docs seem a bit unsure… atm I’m seeing a clinical > psychologist for ‘assessment’… > This seems like a nice place…

Response:

> Here is a site with definitions; just click on the left; > cyclothymic literally means change or cycle in mood – how > it’s used may be a matter of stressing degree of manic-depression > swings:

Yes, I’ve done some searches on the subjet, but I wanted to hear it in layman’s terms. — Wordy, Radiant Sun to the Galaxy of Controversy

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Hi Steven, yes this is a nice place.  I’ve only been here a couple of months myself.  Good to see you join us. Bonnie

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> Taking down the tree….putting away the decorations….looking forward > to Spring. > Yes. Great isn’t it! I hate all the enforced jollity of Xmas… > I’m new here btw.. I’m almost certainly bipolar (maybe *only* > cyclothymic)… the docs seem a bit unsure… atm I’m seeing a > clinical psychologist for ‘assessment’… > This seems like a nice place… > — > Steven > http://www.davecovcomedy.com/

Response:

> im  going to choose to bum you all out by feeling sorry for myself. no > tree, no decorations, no family, no party, no love.

I don’t know what to say, except that I feel for you. {{{{{Anna}}}}} Fiona — If we had no winter, the spring would not be so pleasant: if we did not sometimes taste the adversity, prosperity would not be so welcome.      – Anne Bradstreet, Meditations Divine and Moral, 1664

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> Taking down the tree….putting away the decorations….looking forward > to Spring.

Well, I never put up a tree, so I don’t have to worry about that part. But I do have to get the decorations put away; soon, since my family’s tradition is that it’s bad luck to have decorations up past Jan. 6 (Twelfth Night). Definately looking forward to Spring. This year I’m trying to pay attention to noticing that every day though January and February sunset is really a few minutes later. I’m hoping this will help derail some of my usual February funk. Fiona — If we had no winter, the spring would not be so pleasant: if we did not sometimes taste the adversity, prosperity would not be so welcome.      – Anne Bradstreet, Meditations Divine and Moral, 1664

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- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text ->Taking down the tree….putting away the decorations….looking forward >to Spring. > Well, I never put up a tree, so I don’t have to worry about that part. > But I do have to get the decorations put away; soon, since my family’s > tradition is that it’s bad luck to have decorations up past Jan. 6 > (Twelfth Night). > Definately looking forward to Spring. This year I’m trying to pay > attention to noticing that every day though January and February sunset > is really a few minutes later. I’m hoping this will help derail some of > my usual February funk.

February Funk, huh?  Sounds like the genisis of a 1970’s right guard Ad! Feb is a toughie month, has to get it’s licks in good, only 28 lousy short grey days!

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> Hi Steven, yes this is a nice place.  I’ve only been here a couple of months > myself.  Good to see you join us. > Bonnie

Hi Bonnie. These groups (ASDM, SSDM and ASDMed) are great aren’t they. I used to post to a UK depression group… but I ended up getting more depressed and more bitter! Not good news… But I’m pretty sure that I’m at least cyclothymic… Slightly ‘OT’: I don’t seem to need ANY sleep these days… a couple of hours a night and I’m more or less ok… weird… is this… er… ‘normal’ for our conditions? — Steven http://www.davecovcomedy.com/

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>>> Taking down the tree….putting away the decorations….looking forward >> to Spring. > Yes. Great isn’t it! I hate all the enforced jollity of Xmas… > I’m with you on that one, Steve!

Nothing worse than ‘having’ to have fun… I prefer fun to happen naturally… and it usually does… ;o) — Steven http://www.davecovcomedy.com/

Response:

Hi Setven Welcome to the ng. > These groups (ASDM, SSDM and ASDMed) are great aren’t they. I used > to post to a UK depression group… but I ended up getting more > depressed and more bitter! Not good news… > But I’m pretty sure that I’m at least cyclothymic… > Slightly ‘OT’: I don’t seem to need ANY sleep these days… a couple > of hours a night and I’m more or less ok… weird… is this… > er… ‘normal’ for our conditions?

Yes….hypomania….please inform your doctor. Peace, Lynda

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> Yes….hypomania….please inform your doctor. > Peace, > Lynda

Me too. But I like it. I know…. jodelli

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>>Yes….hypomania….please inform your doctor. >Peace, >Lynda > Me too. But I like it. I know….

It is a pain in the neck, yes… but I get a hell of a lot done with all the extra hours!!! / So it does have its advantages… — Steven http://www.davecovcomedy.com/

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- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text ->>Yes….hypomania….please inform your doctor. >>Peace, >>Lynda > Me too. But I like it. I know…. > It is a pain in the neck, yes… but I get a hell of a lot done with > all the extra hours!!! / So it does have its advantages…

My problem is when the mania is gone and my ass has to keep the committments my manic mouth made. — Wordy, Radiant Sun to the Galaxy of Controversy

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- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text ->>>Yes….hypomania….please inform your doctor. >>Me too. But I like it. I know…. >It is a pain in the neck, yes… but I get a hell of a lot done with >all the extra hours!!! / So it does have its advantages… > My problem is when the mania is gone and my ass has to keep the > committments my manic mouth made.

I tend to just dance about (in a deliberately silly way) and sing silly songs when I’m really manic… (my children love it!) ) I don’t really make any commitments as such (when I’m ‘up’… or ‘down’ come to think of it!) … not ones I can’t honour anyway… — Steven http://www.davecovcomedy.com/

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> >My problem is when the mania is gone and my ass has to keep the >committments my manic mouth made. > I’m living down that reality right now. Hugs, Ralph

LOL!  Then you know what I mean.   — Wordy, Radiant Sun to the Galaxy of Controversy

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> I tend to just dance about (in a deliberately silly way) and sing > silly songs when I’m really manic… (my children love it!) ) > I don’t really make any commitments as such (when I’m ‘up’… or > ‘down’ come to think of it!) … not ones I can’t honour anyway… > — > Steven

i guess thats one small blessing that we can count as cyclothymics… i dont seem to make commitments that i cant honour and stuff when i’m ‘up’… nor do i seem to get much of the euphoria unfortunately, it might be more fun like that ;o)… i just tend to rush around and gabble ten to the dozen, i lose concentration and cant keep focus on one thing, everythings too loud… its almost like a big stress attack except my mind and body is racing as well…. apparently its called dysphoric hypomania. hehe i just wish i could have some fun now and then…. ‘care m — ~~~~~>><:>~~~~~ iriXx "… faith is being sure of what we hope for, and certain of what we cannot see"

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 >> I tend to just dance about (in a deliberately silly way) and  >> sing  silly songs when I’m really manic… (my children love  >> it!) )  >>  >> I don’t really make any commitments as such (when I’m ‘up’…  >> or  ’down’ come to think of it!) … not ones I can’t honour  >> anyway…  > i guess thats one small blessing that we can count as  > cyclothymics… i dont seem to make commitments that i cant  > honour and stuff when i’m ‘up’… nor do i seem to get much of  > the euphoria unfortunately, it might be more fun like that  > ;o)…  i just tend to rush around and gabble ten to the dozen,  >  i lose concentration and cant keep focus on one thing,  > everythings too loud… its almost like a big stress attack  > except my mind and body is racing as well…. apparently its  > called dysphoric hypomania. hehe i just wish i could have some  > fun now and then…. I know what you mean about losing concentration… lots of the time I can’t seem to concentrate long enough to read things properly… which is a bit of a hindrance when reading newsgroup postings! I have to force myself to slow down and read things… carefully. I don’t have euphoria as such, though I am definitely ‘up’ as in happy and smiling and being ‘wacky’ (aka ‘tiresome’!) / Thankfully I have a very sympathetic girlfriend… — Steven http://www.davecovcomedy.com/

Response:

>>> Taking down the tree….putting away the decorations….looking forward >> to Spring. > Yes. Great isn’t it! I hate all the enforced jollity of Xmas… > me too…. i kept very quiet this xmas cept for hanging out here… > needed to know other people felt the same about all that fake happy that > goes on…. > hehe, well, we can at least now say the shortest day of the year has > passed and things literally will be getting brighter… thats something > )))

I don’t really mind the dark nights… ) It’s the cold I can’t stand… (I’m in Britain, btw… very cold here right now!) > I’m new here btw.. I’m almost certainly bipolar (maybe *only* > cyclothymic)… the docs seem a bit unsure… atm I’m seeing a > clinical psychologist for ‘assessment’… > This seems like a nice place… > hiya, welcome )))) > i’m a fellow cyclothymic. i was diagnosed just under a year ago… been > coming to terms with the idea of being BP since. this is a cool place > ))) i hope you’ll find a lot of support here, as i have. keep an eye > out on lynda’s posts of medical information, i’ve found them invaluable > just in learning about BP, and occasionally things crop up about > cyclothymia too.

As I’ve said I haven’t had a firm diagnosis… just ‘maybes’… one therapist I saw said I may have a personality disorder… my doctor thinks I could be cyclothymic… and the psychologist I’m seeing right now seems to think it could be bipolar… the opinion I trust the most though, is that of my girlfriend… she has had some medical training in the past and is pretty sure I’m ‘manic’… > yeah, i understand what you mean about "only" cyclothymic… it might be > milder… but in some ways the rapid cycles are more confusing, and > emotionally exhausting i find too… i seem to be either racing around > and gabbling ten to the dozen at the moment, or really depressed…. > are you on any meds?… i’d be interested to know how you find them, if > you’re okay about chatting about them… i’m still trying to work all of > the med stuff out myself.

I take Seroxat for ‘depression’ – which *does* help, I have to say. I also take pretty strong drugs for my Crohn’s Disease – I’ve had it since I was 22 (I’m now 39). Take care. ) — Steven http://www.davecovcomedy.com/

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> My psych thinks I’m bipolar2, but I’m confused at the subtle differences > between the numbers.

Me too.  I was told I was bipolar 2 but there are days that I have quite a bit of the rapid cycling and that makes me wonder.  I’m only now learning more about being bipolar 2 –  cyclothymia is still really confusing to me. Heck, I don’t know what I am and I doubt if anyone else does either…. Bonnie

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> i’m cyclothymic, thats my official diagnosis… i’ve been looking out > for info on it since i was diagnosed… i guess cos its taken me a while > to come to terms with it…. > hugs > m

Hi m. you know this coming to terms business is difficult isn’t it? I hope you are doing OK, Bonnie

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Hi Brenda, I was only diagnosed a couple of months ago and I still have so much to learn about all this.  I can tell you this is the place to be to get information on the various forms of bipolar.  I have found more helpful info here than anywhere. I have taken welbutrin in the past and found if I had any caffeine while on it I would be climbing the walls.  I now take prozac for my AD and neurontin as a mood stabilizer.   I’m still trying to adjust the neurontin and the holidays sure don’t help any.  This is the first mood stabilizer I’ve taken and I do think it helps although it takes me a long time to get the dosage adjusted on any meds I take.  As far as side effects I really have not had very many once I got past the first few weeks. Take care Brenda, Bonnie

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> Hi there, new here and having a particularly hard day with ups and > downs. I’m talking so fast my mouth can’t keep up.  It would be funny > if I didn’t crash an hour later, replay the gaffe in my head and start > beating myself up for being such a big moron. > I’ve never been diagnosed as having anything more specific than > bipolar disorder, but cyclothymia sounds right on the money. > I take wellbutrin, which kind of keeps things level most of the time, > but some heavy life stress has turned me into a tilt-a-whirl.  Is > anyone talking mood stabilizers?  Do they work?  What are the side > effects? > Thanks, just feeling the need for some ‘real world’ information at the > moment.

Response:

> Taking down the tree….putting away the decorations….looking forward > to Spring.

Well, I never put up a tree, so I don’t have to worry about that part. But I do have to get the decorations put away; soon, since my family’s tradition is that it’s bad luck to have decorations up past Jan. 6 (Twelfth Night). Definately looking forward to Spring. This year I’m trying to pay attention to noticing that every day though January and February sunset is really a few minutes later. I’m hoping this will help derail some of my usual February funk. Fiona — If we had no winter, the spring would not be so pleasant: if we did not sometimes taste the adversity, prosperity would not be so welcome.      – Anne Bradstreet, Meditations Divine and Moral, 1664

Response:

Hi Steven, yes this is a nice place.  I’ve only been here a couple of months myself.  Good to see you join us. Bonnie

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> Taking down the tree….putting away the decorations….looking forward > to Spring. > Yes. Great isn’t it! I hate all the enforced jollity of Xmas… > I’m new here btw.. I’m almost certainly bipolar (maybe *only* > cyclothymic)… the docs seem a bit unsure… atm I’m seeing a > clinical psychologist for ‘assessment’… > This seems like a nice place… > — > Steven > http://www.davecovcomedy.com/

Response:

> im  going to choose to bum you all out by feeling sorry for myself. no > tree, no decorations, no family, no party, no love.

I don’t know what to say, except that I feel for you. {{{{{Anna}}}}} Fiona — If we had no winter, the spring would not be so pleasant: if we did not sometimes taste the adversity, prosperity would not be so welcome.      – Anne Bradstreet, Meditations Divine and Moral, 1664

Response:

Hi there, new here and having a particularly hard day with ups and downs. I’m talking so fast my mouth can’t keep up.  It would be funny if I didn’t crash an hour later, replay the gaffe in my head and start beating myself up for being such a big moron. I’ve never been diagnosed as having anything more specific than bipolar disorder, but cyclothymia sounds right on the money. I take wellbutrin, which kind of keeps things level most of the time, but some heavy life stress has turned me into a tilt-a-whirl.  Is anyone talking mood stabilizers?  Do they work?  What are the side effects? Thanks, just feeling the need for some ‘real world’ information at the moment.

Response:

Yeah, it can get incredibly confusing. I’m BP2, but I am a rapid cycler, as is my son who is BP1 w/psychosis. I just call myself a beeper, take my meds, and deal with it one day at a time (sometimes one minute at a time). CJ

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text ->>I’m new here btw.. I’m almost certainly bipolar (maybe *only* >>cyclothymic)… the docs seem a bit unsure… atm I’m seeing a >>clinical psychologist for ‘assessment’… > Can y’all tell me the differences between bipolar and cyclothymic? > cyclothymia is what i have. its one of the many spectrum variants of > bipolar… usually classified as mild hypomania and depression, but with > cycles that can last anything from a few hours to days or weeks. > sometimes its known as bipolar III (although sometimes that > classification is given to antidepressant-induced bipolar, it depends > whose manual you’re reading.). i like the term bipolar III because it > keeps the trend of the scale from bp I being longer term and more > intense mania and depression, to bp II being hypomania, often dysphoric > mania, and depression, and bp III or cyclothymia, being rather similiar > to bp II but with shorter cycles. its sometimes called rapid cycling > too, although all types of bp can have times of rapid cycling. > hope that helps > ‘care > m > — > ~~~~~>><:>~~~~~ > iriXx > "… faith is being sure of what we hope for, > and certain of what we cannot see"

Response:

> Yeah, it can get incredibly confusing. > I’m BP2, but I am a rapid cycler, as is my son who is BP1 w/psychosis. > I just call myself a beeper, take my meds, and deal with it one day at a > time (sometimes one minute at a time). > CJ

yeahh… me too… i just try and follow the advice of my therapist which is to look at me and what i want to work on and change, rather than the label ))) (((((((hugs to you and your son)))))))))) m — ~~~~~>><:>~~~~~ iriXx "… faith is being sure of what we hope for, and certain of what we cannot see"

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- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – > Hi there, new here and having a particularly hard day with ups and > downs. I’m talking so fast my mouth can’t keep up.  It would be funny > if I didn’t crash an hour later, replay the gaffe in my head and start > beating myself up for being such a big moron. > I’ve never been diagnosed as having anything more specific than > bipolar disorder, but cyclothymia sounds right on the money. > I take wellbutrin, which kind of keeps things level most of the time, > but some heavy life stress has turned me into a tilt-a-whirl.  Is > anyone talking mood stabilizers?  Do they work?  What are the side > effects? > Thanks, just feeling the need for some ‘real world’ information at the > moment.

hiya, yeah that sounds a bit like me, i talk fast when i’m hypomanic, or work really fast… and then crash about 3 hours or so later…. sometimes this cycle goes on for days…. today i was a little hypomanic but mostly balanced which was a breath of fresh air ))) i’ve had one hell of a xmas… i take zoloft (sertraline)… i havent got mood stabilisers yet, thats my other option, but last time i spoke to my p-doc she just wanted me to stay stable on what i’m on., cos i had a nasty reaction to some stuff a consultant tried to put me on (and then i sacked him!)… from what i gather the mood stabilisers are excellent though ))) almost everyone else here is on them i think ))) take care m — ~~~~~>><:>~~~~~ iriXx "… faith is being sure of what we hope for, and certain of what we cannot see"

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> Here is a site with definitions; just click on the left; > cyclothymic literally means change or cycle in mood – how > it’s used may be a matter of stressing degree of manic-depression > swings:

Yes, I’ve done some searches on the subjet, but I wanted to hear it in layman’s terms. — Wordy, Radiant Sun to the Galaxy of Controversy

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> Yeah, it can get incredibly confusing. > I’m BP2, but I am a rapid cycler, as is my son who is BP1 w/psychosis. > I just call myself a beeper, take my meds, and deal with it one day at a > time (sometimes one minute at a time).

My psych thinks I’m bipolar2, but I’m confused at the subtle differences between the numbers. — Wordy, Radiant Sun to the Galaxy of Controversy

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I think it is more like aftershock with all the extreme changes up and down and too much to do and too many problems to deal with and all that squeezed into one month.  It is supposed to be a happy time but ends up being all stress and problems. Take down the tree?  You mean I have to do that too?  I was hoping if I didn’t say anything I could just leave it alone with the other Christmas decorations.  Besides, the cats love the tree – they would hate to see it go.  It was several weeks of stressing getting the tree up.  I’m just not ready to start stressing about taking it down yet. I go back to "normal life" (whatever that is) tomorrow.  Today started out with a one hour+ drive to the airport in the snow to see my son back off to school.  It was so hard – we both cried.  He is in total denial of his bipolar condition even though a few years ago he accepted it and took meds for it.  It was great having him home after not seeing him for a year but it has been difficult seeing how he suffers from his condition.  I’m learning so much more about this since I was recently diagnosed and I want to help him but can’t – he has to do things his own way.  I have to say my husband was much more patient than usual about putting up with two beepers and all those "extra" holiday mood swings.  Maybe he is actually learning to accept this a bit. I’ve been on vacation for the past week but tomorrow it is back to work. I’d rather not but I have no choice so I’ll try to ignore the tree and decorations a little longer and see what happens. I hope everyone is healing from the holidays, Bonnie

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> Taking down the tree….putting away the decorations….looking forward > to Spring. > — > LyndaNP > Reality isn’t the way you wish things to be, nor the way > they appear to be, but the way they actually are. > – Robert J. Ringer

Response:

> I’m new here btw.. I’m almost certainly bipolar (maybe *only* > cyclothymic)… the docs seem a bit unsure… atm I’m seeing a > clinical psychologist for ‘assessment’…

Can y’all tell me the differences between bipolar and cyclothymic? — Wordy, Radiant Sun to the Galaxy of Controversy

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- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> I’m new here btw.. I’m almost certainly bipolar (maybe *only* > cyclothymic)… the docs seem a bit unsure… atm I’m seeing a > clinical psychologist for ‘assessment’… > Can y’all tell me the differences between bipolar and cyclothymic? > — > Wordy, > Radiant Sun to the > Galaxy of Controversy

Here is a site with definitions; just click on the left; cyclothymic literally means change or cycle in mood – how it’s used may be a matter of stressing degree of manic-depression swings: http://www.mentalhealth.com/fr20.html Squiggles

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>>Can y’all tell me the differences between bipolar and cyclothymic? > Here is a site with definitions; just click on the left; > cyclothymic literally means change or cycle in mood – how > it’s used may be a matter of stressing degree of manic-depression > swings: > http://www.mentalhealth.com/fr20.html > Squiggles

  cool thanx heaps. i’m cyclothymic, thats my official diagnosis… i’ve been looking out for info on it since i was diagnosed… i guess cos its taken me a while to come to terms with it…. hugs m — ~~~~~>><:>~~~~~ iriXx "… faith is being sure of what we hope for, and certain of what we cannot see"

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>>I’m new here btw.. I’m almost certainly bipolar (maybe *only* >cyclothymic)… the docs seem a bit unsure… atm I’m seeing a >clinical psychologist for ‘assessment’… > Can y’all tell me the differences between bipolar and cyclothymic?

cyclothymia is what i have. its one of the many spectrum variants of bipolar… usually classified as mild hypomania and depression, but with cycles that can last anything from a few hours to days or weeks. sometimes its known as bipolar III (although sometimes that classification is given to antidepressant-induced bipolar, it depends whose manual you’re reading.). i like the term bipolar III because it keeps the trend of the scale from bp I being longer term and more intense mania and depression, to bp II being hypomania, often dysphoric mania, and depression, and bp III or cyclothymia, being rather similiar to bp II but with shorter cycles. its sometimes called rapid cycling too, although all types of bp can have times of rapid cycling. hope that helps ‘care m — ~~~~~>><:>~~~~~ iriXx "… faith is being sure of what we hope for, and certain of what we cannot see"

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>> Taking down the tree….putting away the decorations….looking forward > to Spring. > Yes. Great isn’t it! I hate all the enforced jollity of Xmas…

me too…. i kept very quiet this xmas cept for hanging out here… needed to know other people felt the same about all that fake happy that goes on…. hehe, well, we can at least now say the shortest day of the year has passed and things literally will be getting brighter… thats something ))) > I’m new here btw.. I’m almost certainly bipolar (maybe *only* > cyclothymic)… the docs seem a bit unsure… atm I’m seeing a clinical > psychologist for ‘assessment’… > This seems like a nice place…

hiya, welcome )))) i’m a fellow cyclothymic. i was diagnosed just under a year ago… been coming to terms with the idea of being BP since. this is a cool place ))) i hope you’ll find a lot of support here, as i have. keep an eye out on lynda’s posts of medical information, i’ve found them invaluable just in learning about BP, and occasionally things crop up about cyclothymia too. yeah, i understand what you mean about "only" cyclothymic… it might be milder… but in some ways the rapid cycles are more confusing, and emotionally exhausting i find too… i seem to be either racing around and gabbling ten to the dozen at the moment, or really depressed…. are you on any meds?… i’d be interested to know how you find them, if you’re okay about chatting about them… i’m still trying to work all of the med stuff out myself. take care atb m — ~~~~~>><:>~~~~~ iriXx "… faith is being sure of what we hope for, and certain of what we cannot see"

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>>– >Steven >http://www.davecovcomedy.com/ > Hi Steven, > I love your link – I am a Python fanatic – and > I go into convulsions over the Mouse Episode of > "Fawlty Towers".  "You put Basil in the Ratattouille?"

Hi Squiggles… Just before Xmas my girlfriend and I sat down and enjoyed the Boxed Set of Fawlty Towers… two episodes a night… great stuff. I love loads of different kinds of comedy… the link I used points to the more mainstream sort… my favourite kind is the Chris Morris type of savage satire. VERY cathartic. ) — Steven http://www.davecovcomedy.com/

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> Taking down the tree….putting away the decorations….looking forward > to Spring.

im  going to choose to bum you all out by feeling sorry for myself. no tree, no decorations, no family, no party, no love. none for me this year. big flat NUTHIN. not even allowed to feel the feelings i felt. just cold. ice, freezing, coldness. i hate my family and i hope they die violent painful lonely deaths somewhere far away from me, and that i get my daughter home where she belongs asap. i mean that. in case you thought i was kidding, let me say it again. i hope that my stepmother and my father die vicious violent lonely painful deaths far away from everyone they care about (although they dont care about anyone so that is kind of meaningless) and that my daughter and i live the rest of our lives as far away from them and their insanity as we can possibly get ourselves. so there. i need a miracle this holiday. thats what its gonna take. gonna go have coffee now. you can return to your regularly scheduled humanity. > — > LyndaNP > Reality isn’t the way you wish things to be, nor the way > they appear to be, but the way they actually are. > – Robert J. Ringer

– its a buck:  dancer’s choice, my friend better take my advice – you know all the rules by now and the fire from the ice. think this through with me; let me know your mind oh, what i want to know is – are you kind ? ~~ blessed are we to dwell in these beautiful temples ~~

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- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> Taking down the tree….putting away the decorations….looking forward > to Spring. > im  going to choose to bum you all out by feeling sorry for myself. no > tree, no decorations, no family, no party, no love. > none for me this year. big flat NUTHIN. > not even allowed to feel the feelings i felt. just cold. ice, freezing, > coldness. > i hate my family and i hope they die violent painful lonely deaths > somewhere far away from me, and that i get my daughter home where she > belongs asap. > i mean that. in case you thought i was kidding, let me say it again. i > hope that my stepmother and my father die vicious violent lonely painful > deaths far away from everyone they care about (although they dont care > about anyone so that is kind of meaningless) and that my daughter and i > live the rest of our lives as far away from them and their insanity as > we can possibly get ourselves. > so there. > i need a miracle this holiday. thats what its gonna take. gonna go have > coffee now. you can return to your regularly scheduled humanity. > — > LyndaNP > Reality isn’t the way you wish things to be, nor the way > they appear to be, but the way they actually are. > – Robert J. Ringer > —

Anna, I am sorry – i forget how bad your situation is; please feel free to rant as much as you like. I don’t know what kind of advice to give, i’m rather misanthropic myself.  Actually, I do just well among people who are gentle, but most groups I know and relatives and so forth are just so aggressive, that I want to hide.  This is what I miss about my world – academia the most.  I should have been a monk or a monkette, lol. Squiggles

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Taking down the tree….putting away the decorations….looking forward to Spring. — LyndaNP Reality isn’t the way you wish things to be, nor the way they appear to be, but the way they actually are. – Robert J. Ringer

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> Taking down the tree….putting away the decorations….looking forward > to Spring.

Yes. Great isn’t it! I hate all the enforced jollity of Xmas… I’m new here btw.. I’m almost certainly bipolar (maybe *only* cyclothymic)… the docs seem a bit unsure… atm I’m seeing a clinical psychologist for ‘assessment’… This seems like a nice place… — Steven http://www.davecovcomedy.com/

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> — > Steven > http://www.davecovcomedy.com/

Hi Steven, I love your link – I am a Python fanatic – and I go into convulsions over the Mouse Episode of "Fawlty Towers".  "You put Basil in the Ratattouille?" Squiggles

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Question:

hi there. yea im on neurontin as a mood stabilizer. xanax for anxiety(i have it badly) and zyprexa to chill me out from leaping off tall buildings at a single bound. you have a good xmas too! harp

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> thanks.i will do my best.so far so good. > and i have been on zoloft for a number of years now with good results. > of course they could be better. > im on 200 mgs a day. > whats ther highest dosage they can use??? > harp > as far as i know the highest dose for sertraline hydrochloride is > 250mg… 200 is the standard highest dose though. it makes sense if > you’re on that much that it would be very painful for you cutting > down… i was on 150mg but it aggravated my hypomania so i cut back to > 100mg… that was very hard though, i had a big depressive reaction even > though i did it in small stages, i actually split the pills in half for > a week and took 125mg… i do think its good stuff…. it keeps me > balanced enough while i’m working on the deep things and long-term > solutions with my therapist. yeah, i couldbe better too… maybe adding > a mood stabiliser would be a good idea… do you take a MS ? > hope you’re feeling more stable now, and that you can enjoy a peaceful > day tomorrow, > take care > m > — > ~~~~~>><:>~~~~~ > iriXx > www.iriXx.org > "… faith is being sure of what we hope for, > and certain of what we cannot see"

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> thanks.i will do my best.so far so good. > and i have been on zoloft for a number of years now with good results. > of course they could be better. > im on 200 mgs a day. > whats ther highest dosage they can use??? > harp

as far as i know the highest dose for sertraline hydrochloride is 250mg… 200 is the standard highest dose though. it makes sense if you’re on that much that it would be very painful for you cutting down… i was on 150mg but it aggravated my hypomania so i cut back to 100mg… that was very hard though, i had a big depressive reaction even though i did it in small stages, i actually split the pills in half for a week and took 125mg… i do think its good stuff…. it keeps me balanced enough while i’m working on the deep things and long-term solutions with my therapist. yeah, i couldbe better too… maybe adding a mood stabiliser would be a good idea… do you take a MS ? hope you’re feeling more stable now, and that you can enjoy a peaceful day tomorrow, take care m — ~~~~~>><:>~~~~~ iriXx www.iriXx.org "… faith is being sure of what we hope for, and certain of what we cannot see"

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thanks.i will do my best.so far so good. and i have been on zoloft for a number of years now with good results. of course they could be better. im on 200 mgs a day. whats ther highest dosage they can use??? harp

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> thanks A BUNCH! > im stayin on it. > i havent seen the new pdoc yet so i dont know what he will want.im sure if > im(reasonably) stable he will keep me on what i take. > my recently"dismissed" pdoc wanted me off all meds. > she was terrible! > harpy > yes, that does sound terrible. i sacked one of my p-docs who decided to > mess with my meds and put me on reboxetine which gave me a terrible > anxiety reaction (((. then he tried to blame it on me cos "im ill, i > cant possibly know"… i thought those sorta doctors werent around any > more… but ho hum… anyhow after him i saw my current p-doc. she just > wanted to make sure i was stable because that incident messed me up so > much. i am really glad of this, she doesnt even want to try me on a mood > stabiliser yet, even though its gonna be the next logical thing, because > she thinks i need time just being stable on what im on. i think thats > really important – always remember that its your choice in the end, and > the doctor is there for you (and not the other way round, the way some > of them seem to like to think! ;o))) > i would think if you are stable he would be happy to keep you on zoloft. > it has a good reputation for being calming too, which im sure has a > slight calming effect on my hypomania as well as helping lots with my > depression. just make it clear to him you want to stay stable, im sure > he will be happy to keep you on it )))). yeah, stay on it until you > see him too… coming off any AD is hard work… and there’s no harm you > can do in taking it, its not like its addictive or anything…. > hope you can have some peace of mind this xmas ))) > take care > m > — > ~~~~~>><:>~~~~~ > iriXx > "… faith is being sure of what we hope for, > and certain of what we cannot see"

Response:

> thanks A BUNCH! > im stayin on it. > i havent seen the new pdoc yet so i dont know what he will want.im sure if > im(reasonably) stable he will keep me on what i take. > my recently"dismissed" pdoc wanted me off all meds. > she was terrible! > harpy

yes, that does sound terrible. i sacked one of my p-docs who decided to mess with my meds and put me on reboxetine which gave me a terrible anxiety reaction (((. then he tried to blame it on me cos "im ill, i cant possibly know"… i thought those sorta doctors werent around any more… but ho hum… anyhow after him i saw my current p-doc. she just wanted to make sure i was stable because that incident messed me up so much. i am really glad of this, she doesnt even want to try me on a mood stabiliser yet, even though its gonna be the next logical thing, because she thinks i need time just being stable on what im on. i think thats really important – always remember that its your choice in the end, and the doctor is there for you (and not the other way round, the way some of them seem to like to think! ;o))) i would think if you are stable he would be happy to keep you on zoloft. it has a good reputation for being calming too, which im sure has a slight calming effect on my hypomania as well as helping lots with my depression. just make it clear to him you want to stay stable, im sure he will be happy to keep you on it )))). yeah, stay on it until you see him too… coming off any AD is hard work… and there’s no harm you can do in taking it, its not like its addictive or anything…. hope you can have some peace of mind this xmas ))) take care m — ~~~~~>><:>~~~~~ iriXx "… faith is being sure of what we hope for, and certain of what we cannot see"

Response:

thanks A BUNCH! im stayin on it. i havent seen the new pdoc yet so i dont know what he will want.im sure if im(reasonably) stable he will keep me on what i take. my recently"dismissed" pdoc wanted me off all meds. she was terrible! harpy

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> yes, it does… i take zoloft and i find if i miss a dose , i’ll be a > weepy wreck by the evening. im on 100mg. > my pdoc has always said to me if it helps being on it then i should stay > on it… we’ve talked about the alternative of switching me to a MS, but > she doesnt want to do that just because stability is so important to me > right now. i reckon you could make that point to your p-doc as well, > that being stable is what you need…. is he trying to take you off it? > i’d suggest dont worry about decreasing it right yet…. just try to > keep stable, and raise the point with him if and when he suggests coming > off it… sometimes you might need to be on them for some time (im > thinking maybe i might need to be on them for life or at least another > few years…) > take care and i hope you feel better soon > ((((((((((((((harpy)))))))))))))))) > m > does it exist? sure feels like it when i try to get off it no matter how > little i decrease it. > i dont WANNA  get off it but it would be good to have something concrete to > take to my new pdoc should he try and get me off the med. > my head feels like a damned baloon when i try and come off that stuff and i > cant think or function. > but it helps me tenfold being on it. > any good advice on this is welcome or input. > thanks > harpy > — > ~~~~~>><:>~~~~ > iriXx > www.iriXx.org > "…faith is being sure of what we hope for, >   and certain of what we cannot see"

Response:

thanks jim.yep..those are the bad effects described to a tee. im staying on it thats for sure!!! harp

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> I took Zoloft for about a year and then the pdoc changed me over to > wellbutrin SR 300MG.  I experienced a lot of headaches and malaise during > that time but she still changed it.  I hope you can persuade him to keep you > on it if it works for you. > Jim > does it exist? sure feels like it when i try to get off it no matter how > little i decrease it. > i dont WANNA  get off it but it would be good to have something concrete > to > take to my new pdoc should he try and get me off the med. > my head feels like a damned baloon when i try and come off that stuff and > i > cant think or function. > but it helps me tenfold being on it. > any good advice on this is welcome or input. > thanks > harpy

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yes, it does… i take zoloft and i find if i miss a dose , i’ll be a weepy wreck by the evening. im on 100mg. my pdoc has always said to me if it helps being on it then i should stay on it… we’ve talked about the alternative of switching me to a MS, but she doesnt want to do that just because stability is so important to me right now. i reckon you could make that point to your p-doc as well, that being stable is what you need…. is he trying to take you off it? i’d suggest dont worry about decreasing it right yet…. just try to keep stable, and raise the point with him if and when he suggests coming off it… sometimes you might need to be on them for some time (im thinking maybe i might need to be on them for life or at least another few years…) take care and i hope you feel better soon ((((((((((((((harpy)))))))))))))))) m > does it exist? sure feels like it when i try to get off it no matter how > little i decrease it. > i dont WANNA  get off it but it would be good to have something concrete to > take to my new pdoc should he try and get me off the med. > my head feels like a damned baloon when i try and come off that stuff and i > cant think or function. > but it helps me tenfold being on it. > any good advice on this is welcome or input. > thanks > harpy

– ~~~~~>><:>~~~~ iriXx www.iriXx.org "…faith is being sure of what we hope for,   and certain of what we cannot see"

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does it exist? sure feels like it when i try to get off it no matter how little i decrease it. i dont WANNA  get off it but it would be good to have something concrete to take to my new pdoc should he try and get me off the med. my head feels like a damned baloon when i try and come off that stuff and i cant think or function. but it helps me tenfold being on it. any good advice on this is welcome or input. thanks harpy

Response:

I took Zoloft for about a year and then the pdoc changed me over to wellbutrin SR 300MG.  I experienced a lot of headaches and malaise during that time but she still changed it.  I hope you can persuade him to keep you on it if it works for you. Jim

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> does it exist? sure feels like it when i try to get off it no matter how > little i decrease it. > i dont WANNA  get off it but it would be good to have something concrete to > take to my new pdoc should he try and get me off the med. > my head feels like a damned baloon when i try and come off that stuff and i > cant think or function. > but it helps me tenfold being on it. > any good advice on this is welcome or input. > thanks > harpy

Response:

Question:

> Galen? > Larry, > look at "… pharmacy " section ; Galen was > the proponent of the theory that dose was critical > in pharmacology and a drug could be a poison under > the wrong dose. > Squiggles > http://www.geocities.com/omermalik_2000/galen_2.htm

Oh, THAT Galen. For some reason, I was searching my brain for  someone more "modern". It is an honour to be linked in any way to a great mind like Galen. Lar

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- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> Another thing I am looking for I guess, is whether lithium > is "disease-specific" – ahhh, if only all drugs matched > the illness, it could be used as a diagnostic tool – that’s > what i’m looking for.  I think Dr. David Healy referred to > that happy situation as "The Magic Bullet". > thanks FierceWaters > Squiggles > I came across the answer to that while looking for the other information I > collected; the answer is no, lithium is not disease-specific. At least 10% > of classic BP1 subjects obtain no relief from lithium. In fact, some studies > have specifically selected lithium "high-responders" in order to try and > figure out why lithium works for them, and not the others. > Lar

Aha.  Well, 10% could be a misdiagnosis or misperception of the bipolar symptoms – i know something sounds wrong with this argument but I don’t have my list of fallacies at my side. Squiggles

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> One final comment: the dose makes the poison. You could view lithium > prophylaxis as sub-lethal chronic poisoning. The "response" of BPers is as > much a function of their starting point, as it is of the toxic effects of > lithium. > Lar > Ouch!  You sound like Galen. > Squiggles

Galen?

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- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> > One final comment: the dose makes the poison. You could view lithium > > prophylaxis as sub-lethal chronic poisoning. The "response" of BPers is > as > > much a function of their starting point, as it is of the toxic effects > of > > lithium. > > Lar > Ouch!  You sound like Galen. > Squiggles > Galen?

Larry, look at "… pharmacy " section ; Galen was the proponent of the theory that dose was critical in pharmacology and a drug could be a poison under the wrong dose. Squiggles http://www.geocities.com/omermalik_2000/galen_2.htm

Response:

> Another thing I am looking for I guess, is whether lithium > is "disease-specific" – ahhh, if only all drugs matched > the illness, it could be used as a diagnostic tool – that’s > what i’m looking for.  I think Dr. David Healy referred to > that happy situation as "The Magic Bullet". > thanks FierceWaters > Squiggles

I came across the answer to that while looking for the other information I collected; the answer is no, lithium is not disease-specific. At least 10% of classic BP1 subjects obtain no relief from lithium. In fact, some studies have specifically selected lithium "high-responders" in order to try and figure out why lithium works for them, and not the others. Lar

Response:

> I can’t remember where I read it, but I read in a scientific journal > that lithium will NOT have an effect on non-bipolar clients.  I will > try to find it….it may have been in the new journal Bipolar > Disorders, in one of the first issues.

The reports vary according to what is looked for – I am not savvy on statistical significance designs; but yes, I have seen conclusions of both – not effective on Beepers and effective in some regard or other. I am not at all certain that these studies take into effect the amount of time necessary to adjust and stabilize on the drug. In my experience, I felt like a 600 lb. lead weight for 3 months – very lethargic.  However, I was greatful to be taken out of a very bad state of agitated depression and mania and did not mind.  The important point though, is that after 3 months, I did not feel that heaviness or lethargy.  My husband described me as "energetic" still – much more that him. Another thing I am looking for I guess, is whether lithium is "disease-specific" – ahhh, if only all drugs matched the illness, it could be used as a diagnostic tool – that’s what i’m looking for.  I think Dr. David Healy referred to that happy situation as "The Magic Bullet". thanks FierceWaters Squiggles

Response:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> > my doctor told me the story of when he was studying the effects of > lithium > > (he has published several papers on it and won the mogen schou prize for > > contributions to research in the treatment of bipolar disorder) that he > and > > several other medical personnel took large doses (therapeutic levels) of > > lithium for several months in order to ascertain exactly what you have > been > > looking for. the result was the same constellation of side-effects that > > people with bp have, and a noticeable flattening of the general affect > > (blunting, i recall, was a term he described the state of mood as … > > blunted). > > all of the participants, as far as i recall, managed to minimize weight > gain > > by exercising and watching their diets, bet even so, there were > significant > > examples of weight gain. > > this has all been part of this doctor’s ongoing research into the > long-term > > effectiveness of lithium treatment – it is, i believe, a thirty-year > study – > > the largest of its kind in the world (lithium was only introduced in the > > 50’s … so it is a very comprehensive study that looks at a medication > that > > can be taken over a lifetime). > > unfortunately, the fruits of this work are not yet available – although > you > > can certainly find other articles by this doctor. > > another thing of note is that lithium is banned in japan – the japanese > have > > a genetic predisposition for developing lithium toxicity – so they > banned > > the drug outright. that is why the other mood stabilizers such as > topamax, > > gabapentin and neurontin were developed (they also use valproic acid and > > carpamezapine). > > i do not know when the lithium study will be published – it will > definitely > > be in the major psychiatric journals. the name of the doctor is groff. > paul > > groff. > > peace, > > sj > Thanks very much Simon, > I’m collecting all this stuff and will look into it; > I find what you say very interesting.  I, myself have > taken lithium for 25 years, with normal weight gain, > developed and controlled hypothyroidism, and no other > side effects (except when taken with higher doses of > benzos, esp. Rivotril – bad interaction – now taking > R at lower dose);  There is of course modulation of > dose and your doctor can adjust that.  From a cursory > glance at what Larry provided and what you say, I think > it looks like lithium works on everyone but especially > on beepers. > tx > Squiggles > One final comment: the dose makes the poison. You could view lithium > prophylaxis as sub-lethal chronic poisoning. The "response" of BPers is as > much a function of their starting point, a it is of the toxic effects of > lithium. > Lar

Ouch!  You sound like Galen. Squiggles

Response:

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> my doctor told me the story of when he was studying the effects of lithium > (he has published several papers on it and won the mogen schou prize for > contributions to research in the treatment of bipolar disorder) that he and > several other medical personnel took large doses (therapeutic levels) of > lithium for several months in order to ascertain exactly what you have been > looking for. the result was the same constellation of side-effects that > people with bp have, and a noticeable flattening of the general affect > (blunting, i recall, was a term he described the state of mood as … > blunted). > all of the participants, as far as i recall, managed to minimize weight gain > by exercising and watching their diets, bet even so, there were significant > examples of weight gain. > this has all been part of this doctor’s ongoing research into the long-term > effectiveness of lithium treatment – it is, i believe, a thirty-year study – > the largest of its kind in the world (lithium was only introduced in the > 50’s … so it is a very comprehensive study that looks at a medication that > can be taken over a lifetime). > unfortunately, the fruits of this work are not yet available – although you > can certainly find other articles by this doctor. > another thing of note is that lithium is banned in japan – the japanese have > a genetic predisposition for developing lithium toxicity – so they banned > the drug outright. that is why the other mood stabilizers such as topamax, > gabapentin and neurontin were developed (they also use valproic acid and > carpamezapine). > i do not know when the lithium study will be published – it will definitely > be in the major psychiatric journals. the name of the doctor is groff. paul > groff. > peace, > sj > Thanks very much Simon, > I’m collecting all this stuff and will look into it; > I find what you say very interesting.  I, myself have > taken lithium for 25 years, with normal weight gain, > developed and controlled hypothyroidism, and no other > side effects (except when taken with higher doses of > benzos, esp. Rivotril – bad interaction – now taking > R at lower dose);  There is of course modulation of > dose and your doctor can adjust that.  From a cursory > glance at what Larry provided and what you say, I think > it looks like lithium works on everyone but especially > on beepers. > tx > Squiggles

One final comment: the dose makes the poison. You could view lithium prophylaxis as sub-lethal chronic poisoning. The "response" of BPers is as much a function of their starting point, a it is of the toxic effects of lithium. Lar

Response:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – > my doctor told me the story of when he was studying the effects of lithium > (he has published several papers on it and won the mogen schou prize for > contributions to research in the treatment of bipolar disorder) that he and > several other medical personnel took large doses (therapeutic levels) of > lithium for several months in order to ascertain exactly what you have been > looking for. the result was the same constellation of side-effects that > people with bp have, and a noticeable flattening of the general affect > (blunting, i recall, was a term he described the state of mood as … > blunted). > all of the participants, as far as i recall, managed to minimize weight gain > by exercising and watching their diets, bet even so, there were significant > examples of weight gain. > this has all been part of this doctor’s ongoing research into the long-term > effectiveness of lithium treatment – it is, i believe, a thirty-year study – > the largest of its kind in the world (lithium was only introduced in the > 50’s … so it is a very comprehensive study that looks at a medication that > can be taken over a lifetime). > unfortunately, the fruits of this work are not yet available – although you > can certainly find other articles by this doctor. > another thing of note is that lithium is banned in japan – the japanese have > a genetic predisposition for developing lithium toxicity – so they banned > the drug outright. that is why the other mood stabilizers such as topamax, > gabapentin and neurontin were developed (they also use valproic acid and > carpamezapine). > i do not know when the lithium study will be published – it will definitely > be in the major psychiatric journals. the name of the doctor is groff. paul > groff. > peace, > sj

Thanks very much Simon, I’m collecting all this stuff and will look into it; I find what you say very interesting.  I, myself have taken lithium for 25 years, with normal weight gain, developed and controlled hypothyroidism, and no other side effects (except when taken with higher doses of benzos, esp. Rivotril – bad interaction – now taking R at lower dose);  There is of course modulation of dose and your doctor can adjust that.  From a cursory glance at what Larry provided and what you say, I think it looks like lithium works on everyone but especially on beepers. tx Squiggles

Response:

my doctor told me the story of when he was studying the effects of lithium (he has published several papers on it and won the mogen schou prize for contributions to research in the treatment of bipolar disorder) that he and several other medical personnel took large doses (therapeutic levels) of lithium for several months in order to ascertain exactly what you have been looking for. the result was the same constellation of side-effects that people with bp have, and a noticeable flattening of the general affect (blunting, i recall, was a term he described the state of mood as … blunted). all of the participants, as far as i recall, managed to minimize weight gain by exercising and watching their diets, bet even so, there were significant examples of weight gain. this has all been part of this doctor’s ongoing research into the long-term effectiveness of lithium treatment – it is, i believe, a thirty-year study – the largest of its kind in the world (lithium was only introduced in the 50’s … so it is a very comprehensive study that looks at a medication that can be taken over a lifetime). unfortunately, the fruits of this work are not yet available – although you can certainly find other articles by this doctor. another thing of note is that lithium is banned in japan – the japanese have a genetic predisposition for developing lithium toxicity – so they banned the drug outright. that is why the other mood stabilizers such as topamax, gabapentin and neurontin were developed (they also use valproic acid and carpamezapine). i do not know when the lithium study will be published – it will definitely be in the major psychiatric journals. the name of the doctor is groff. paul groff. peace, sj

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> Hi everyone, > I am still searching for a good reply to this > question:  "What is the effect of lithium > on normal (i.e. not bipolar) subjects? > I would like to add this piece of information > to my lithium site.  I am also personally interested > in extraneous circumstances which may distort > the diagnosis of bipolar. > A trustworthy test would be, if lithium works > on a subject, then he or she is bipolar – but this > too is not addressed in the literature I’ve found. > Thanks for reading; > Squiggles

Response:

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> Hi everyone, > I am still searching for a good reply to this > question:  "What is the effect of lithium > on normal (i.e. not bipolar) subjects? > I would like to add this piece of information > to my lithium site.  I am also personally interested > in extraneous circumstances which may distort > the diagnosis of bipolar. > A trustworthy test would be, if lithium works > on a subject, then he or she is bipolar – but this > too is not addressed in the literature I’ve found. > Thanks for reading; > Squiggles

Perhaps the serendipitous discovery of the calming effect of lithium salts on rats would be worthy of consideration? The table salt substitutes lithium and potassium chloride were found to be toxic if simply substituted ounce for ounce for sodium chloride. This lead to rodent studies of varying proportions of lithium and potassium chlorides with sodium chloride, to test for a suitable sodium-reduced salt. It was noted that moderate doses of lithium had a calming effect on the rats. Someone had a light-bulb moment, and lithium salts were then given to humans in sublethal concentrations, as a treatment for mania. At least, that’s how I remember the story. Larry

Response:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> Hi everyone, > I am still searching for a good reply to this > question:  "What is the effect of lithium > on normal (i.e. not bipolar) subjects? > I would like to add this piece of information > to my lithium site.  I am also personally interested > in extraneous circumstances which may distort > the diagnosis of bipolar. > A trustworthy test would be, if lithium works > on a subject, then he or she is bipolar – but this > too is not addressed in the literature I’ve found. > Thanks for reading; > Squiggles > Perhaps the serendipitous discovery of the calming effect of lithium salts > on rats would be worthy of consideration? The table salt substitutes lithium > and potassium chloride were found to be toxic if simply substituted ounce > for ounce for sodium chloride. This lead to rodent studies of varying > proportions of lithium and potassium chlorides with sodium chloride, to test > for a suitable sodium-reduced salt. It was noted that moderate doses of > lithium had a calming effect on the rats. Someone had a light-bulb moment, > and lithium salts were then given to humans in sublethal concentrations, as > a treatment for mania. At least, that’s how I remember the story. > Larry

Yes.  A clue – right! On rats, maybe some study on humans – thanks for the lead Larry. You’re ubiquitous lol. Squiggles

Response:

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> > Hi everyone, > > I am still searching for a good reply to this > > question:  "What is the effect of lithium > > on normal (i.e. not bipolar) subjects? > > I would like to add this piece of information > > to my lithium site.  I am also personally interested > > in extraneous circumstances which may distort > > the diagnosis of bipolar. > > A trustworthy test would be, if lithium works > > on a subject, then he or she is bipolar – but this > > too is not addressed in the literature I’ve found. > > Thanks for reading; > > Squiggles > Perhaps the serendipitous discovery of the calming effect of lithium salts > on rats would be worthy of consideration? The table salt substitutes lithium > and potassium chloride were found to be toxic if simply substituted ounce > for ounce for sodium chloride. This lead to rodent studies of varying > proportions of lithium and potassium chlorides with sodium chloride, to test > for a suitable sodium-reduced salt. It was noted that moderate doses of > lithium had a calming effect on the rats. Someone had a light-bulb moment, > and lithium salts were then given to humans in sublethal concentrations, as > a treatment for mania. At least, that’s how I remember the story. > Larry > Yes.  A clue – right! On rats, maybe some study on humans – > thanks for the lead Larry. You’re ubiquitous lol. > Squiggles

Ah, yes, I revel in ubiquity. I was off a little on my history of lithium, so I present the following: A true account of the history of lithium prophelaxis: http://jama.ama-assn.org/issues/v281n24/ffull/jmn0623-1.html http://willmar.ridgewater.mnscu.edu/library/nursing/gomez.htm I was also able to find a few studies which assessed the effect of lithium on normal subjects. Here ya go: J Affect Disord 2000 Nov;60(3):147-57 A double-blind, placebo-controlled study of the effects of lithium on cognition in healthy subjects: mild and selective effects on learning. Stip E, Dufresne J, Lussier I, Yatham L. Centre de Recherche Fernand Seguin, Hopital L.H. Lafontaine, Universite de Montreal, 7331 Hochelaga, Quebec H1N 3V2, Montreal, Canada. BACKGROUND: Several studies have shown cognitive impairment in short-term memory, long-term memory and psychomotor speed in bipolar patients taking lithium. The aim of the study was to look at the effect of lithium in normal subjects (N=30) taking lithium for 3 weeks. A comprehensive battery was used to assess attention and memory. METHODS: Subjects were randomized to double-blind treatment with either lithium (N=15) or placebo (N=15) for a 3-week period. Thirteen participants in the lithium group and 15 in the placebo group completed the study. The lithium and placebo were administered twice daily in doses varying from 1050 to 1950 mg (mean=1569 mg). The initial daily dose was calculated according to the Pepin formula to achieve a blood serum lithium level of about 0.8 mmol/l. Cognitive performance (attention, memory) was assessed in each subjects during three periods, i.e. at baseline, after 3 weeks of lithium or placebo, and 2 weeks after discontinuation of study medication. RESULTS: In short-term memory tasks, the performance of subjects in the lithium group was worst 3 weeks after lithium treatment compared to 2 weeks after discontinuation. In long-term memory, a significantly higher number of words was recalled by the placebo group but not the lithium group. CONCLUSIONS: Lithium may have an effect on learning when long-term explicit memory test are administered repeatedly. It means that the practice effect when a subject performs the same task several times is less in the lithium-treated group than in the placebo group. This practice effect is related to the learning of a task. Biol Trace Elem Res 1994 Jan;40(1):89-101 Effects of nutritional lithium supplementation on mood. A placebo-controlled study with former drug users. Schrauzer GN, de Vroey E. Department of Chemistry and Biochemistry, University of California, San Diego, La Jolla 92093-0314. A total of 24 subjects, 16 males and 8 females, average age 29.4 +/- 6.5 y, were randomly divided into two groups. Group A received 400 micrograms/d of lithium orally, in tablets composed of a naturally lithium-rich brewer’s yeast, for 4 wk. Group B was given normal, lithium-free brewer’s yeast as a placebo. All the subjects of the study were former drug users (mostly heroin and crystal methamphetamine). Some of the subjects were violent offenders or had a history of domestic violence. The subjects completed weekly self-administered mood test questionnaires, which contained 29 items covering parameters measuring mental and physical activity, ability to think and work, mood, and emotionality. In the lithium group, the total mood test scores increased steadily and significantly during the period of supplementation. The 29 items were furthermore placed into three subcategories reflecting happiness, friendliness, and energy, as well as their negative counterparts. In Group A, the scores increased consistently for all subcategories until wk 4 and remained essentially the same in wk 5. In Group B, the combined mood test scores showed no consistent changes during the same period. The only positive change in some members of Group B occurred during wk 1 and was attributed to a placebo effect. In Group B, the placebo effect was noticeable for the subcategories of energy and friendliness; the happiness scores declined during the entire period of observation. Based on these results and the analysis of voluntary written comments of study participants, it is concluded that lithium at the dosages chosen had a mood-improving and -stabilizing effect. Biol Psychiatry 1993 Dec 15;34(12):878-84 Mood variability in normal subjects on lithium. Barton CD Jr, Dufer D, Monderer R, Cohen MJ, Fuller HJ, Clark MR, DePaulo JR Jr. Department of Psychiatry and Behavioral Sciences, Johns Hopkins University School of Medicine, Baltimore, MD. To investigate the effect of lithium carbonate on normal volunteers’ moods, we randomly assigned 30 subjects to 5 weeks each of placebo and lithium treatment with crossover at midstudy. Lithium levels were maintained during the treatment period at a mean serum level of 0.54 mEq/L. All subjects completed visual analogue mood scales (VAMS) daily throughout the study period; segmented visual analogue scales (SVAS) measuring mood, anxiety, and energy and the Profile of Mood States (POMS) were completed weekly at testing sessions. Neither mean mood nor mood variability as assessed by the delta square (mean square successive difference) differed between placebo and lithium conditions. Segmented visual analogue scale mood ratings were highly correlated with the VAMS and similarly showed no difference between conditions. The self-rated mood variability, however, declined significantly in both experimental conditions as a function of time on study. None of the POMS factors differed between placebo and lithium conditions. These data suggest that lithium, in modest doses administered over 5 weeks, does not have a substantial mood-stabilizing effect in normal subjects. Biol Psychiatry 1990 Apr 1;27(7):711-22 The effects of lithium carbonate on healthy volunteers: mood stabilization? Calil HM, Zwicker AP, Klepacz S. Department of Psychobiology, Escola Paulista de Medicina, Sao Paulo, Brazil. A 2-month lithium-placebo double-blind cross-over study was carried out with 17 healthy volunteers. Their mood was self-rated: twice daily (AM, PM) with the Visual Analogue Mood Scale (VAMS); weekly with the analogue scales for subjective states and body symptoms; and three times (basal and at the end of each treatment period) with the Profile of Mood States (POMS). Memory and reaction time were also assessed, but did not show any change. The mean VAMS score decreased during lithium treatment, but the mean mood variability, a measure of the mean successive differences between consecutive mood ratings (delta squared), did not change significantly. There was a tendency toward decreased mood variability on lithium, both during the full 1-month treatment period and in the last week of treatment, when all volunteers had a lithium serum level ranging from 0.6 to 1.0 mEq/liter. The lower mean VAMS scores on lithium could be attributed to lithium-induced dysphoric mood as recorded on the analogue scales and POMS. However, very large inter- and intraindividual differences in response to lithium were observed. Actually, lithium even had an opposite effect on some volunteers’ mood. The data and problems involved with assessment of mood and its changes are discussed. Arch Gen Psychiatry 1977 Mar;34(3):346-51 The effect of lithium carbonate on affect, mood, and personality of normal subjects. Judd LL, Hubbard B, Janowsky DS, Huey LY, Attewell PA. Data reflecting affect, mood, and personality attributes of 23 normal men were compared after two weeks of placebo administration and two weeks of therapeutic serum lithium levels (mean, 0.91 mEq/liter). The study was a placebo-controlled, split-half crossover, double-blind design. Affect and mood were measured by three self-rating instruments, independent rater observation, and by the subjects’ "significant others." Two personality inventories were administered. Substantial affect and mood changes are induced by lithium carbonate. Lethargy, dysphoria, a loss of interest in interacting with others and the environment, and a state of increased mental confusion were reported. No generalized effects were found in the responses to ther personality inventories.

Response:

> Squiggles – I have taken lithium in 1989.  They wanted to augment ADs I was > taking to see if something would work.  What it did was exactly what this > Doctor above said here.  It flattened me so depressed it was the most > horrible experience.  I’d put it in the BIG YUK category of 10.  I retained > fluid horribly, and had some awful tremor going on.  Considering my problem > with easy weight gain and drugs, a long term round with lithium would have > turned me into that Michelin man for sure.  I tell you about the time they > tried to augment with Amphetamines with an AD about a months or so later. > It also makes the list.

Carrie, first let me say that I’d like to drop by your house and kick the shit out of your husband for yelling at you like that.  I suspect he knows he’s only making the problem worse. My pdoc told me that if the Zoloft doesn’t continue to work for me that Lithium was my alternative.  (said it wouldn’t do any good to try Prozac or Paxil, since they were the same as Zoloft)  So I wrote Jock and asked him what he thought about lithium and here’s how the conversation went: > Do you take lithium, Jock? > I can’t take the anti-seizure mood stabilizers and I’m about at the top of > the Sertraline dosage.  It works fine, til I hit another bad patch.  Then > it gets increased and works til next time.  I may try lithium next and see > if it works for me.

No i dont take it. Its for hormonal disorders which result in bi-polar disorder. I have an aut-immune disorder which affects my joints and have to take all sorts of stuff for that but not Lithium. I would strongly counsel you to not take Lithium unless your mood swings are absolutely unbearable. Even then, only if its causing relationships which you have to fall apart. Something i dont think you will be troubled with knowing your caring nature. Lithium is a salt type which is found in rivers in the Orient. Psychiatry researchers noticed that in South East Asia, there were very few cases of manic-depressive people which have the type of bi-polar disorder which is measurable by the hormone householding in the blood. Researcherswere baffled and it took them a while to find out that there was a relationship between hormonal balance and this salt type which flowed naturally into the rivers and thus to the drinking water of South East Asians. This mineral salt, has been chemically reproduced in the drug known as Lithium. But the flip side is that the drug flattens emotions and your very facial expression is that of a mask after long usage. It holds lots of fluid and some people gain weight up to 60 pounds in one month. It also doesnt always take on with everyone. Some patients can actually go manic with it. People on Lithium must go and have their blood checked every 3 months because it can cause thrombosis as well allthough its rare. Lithium can cause more problems than it solves and only in severe cases should a psychiatrist prescribe it. So now that i have scared you, here is the good news. Zyprexa is a good alternative to Lithium. It has a stabalising factor and it doesnt have the evil side effects that Lithium does. It does hold fluid slightly and you would have to take urine stimulation pills for that. It also causes you to involuntary move. You get symptoms like Parkinsons disease. But that can be counteracted by Tremblex or Akineton. Down side is that the Tremblex and Akineton only start working when they have built enough levels in your blood. So for the first couple of weeks you will have such shaky hands, you will have trouble even writing. I do hope this doesnt upset you to hear. Psycofarmacyis really still in its infancy. I notice how you tell us a lot about going to bed early and rising early. This is good. Having a regular lifestyle helps a lot and some things which are caused by trauma cannot really be treated by drugs. You know i am speaking from experience as well. People like you and i go through life and are constantly reminded of how horrible life can be. We get upset when people react against us. We find it difficult to take things in our stride. But we do get on with things dont we? You are lucky to have good friends like Regina. A real good friend is sometimes even better than a partner. But life itself inspires us from time to time. We take great joy in art and sometimes even use art in different forms to express the unspeakable. To let it all come out. But that aside, i do wish you well these coming times. When your mood swings, just go with the flow. Sleep enough and have as regular a life as possible. By regular i mean a fixed daily rythm. But please put off taking Lithium unless you really need to. Peace and God Bless, Jock — Wordy Jingle Jangle Jingle Here comes Mr. Bingle With another message from Kris Kringle

Response:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> > Squiggles, I passed your question along to a mental health professional > > friend of mine.  Here is his response. > > Squiggles wrote… > > > Hi everyone, > > > I am still searching for a good reply to this > > > question:  "What is the effect of lithium > > > on normal (i.e. not bipolar) subjects? > > Jock: I could think of no other reason to prescribe Lithium other than > for > > the relief of bi-polar disorder. It has so many bad, I mean REAL bad > side > > effects that there would be no justification of non bi-polar’s in using > it. > > The extreme weight gain should not be underestimated. I have known > patients > > to gain 60 pounds in a month. > > So I would not recommend prescribing it to "normal" patients. OTOH the > idea > > of testing on 2 groups i.e. bi-polar and non bi-polar would be > interesting. > > Because there is no study that I have heard of, I can only guess what it > > would do. I would guess it would "flatten" emotions. Having ups and down > > days is very normal. Being sad or a bit depressed is human and not a bad > > thing. OTOH its also very normal to feel elated. That new job, new love > in > > ones life or realising your dream is all very legitimate reasons to be > > elated. > > So my guess is that Lithium would have the same side effects (they are > > purely physical and can be measured in the bloodstream) but would make > the > > patient lose the ups and downs. > > Maybe it is noticed that Asian people especially from the far south > eastern > > part are very level minded. Often they dont show emotions. This has > become > > an ethnical trait but can be traced back to the effects of a salt like > > mineral in south far east Asian rivers. This mineral is the one that > > Lithium > > imitates. The noticable flattened out emotion of Chinese and other south > > east Asians that have emigrated to other parts pf the world and still > have > > their offspring being rather "flat" emotionally is a passed down thing > from > > one generation to another. The fact that Chinese dont often intermarry > > causes the offspring to act in this fashion as well. We all have a great > > effect on one another. Chinese people usually living in the same part of > > town ( i.e. Chinatown) is an explanation of peering among Chinese > > youngsters. This peering causes them to have the same traits in life. > > > I would like to add this piece of information > > > to my lithium site.  I am also personally interested > > > in extraneous circumstances which may distort > > > the diagnosis of bipolar. > > Jock: Peer pressure and the tendancy of our youth today of being > addicted > > to > > stimuli. Flashing lights, thumping music, electrical beats etc, etc > causes > > our youth to be actually addicted to stimuli. When it is quiet and they > are > > in a place of tranquility, the youth tend to get depressed. But will > pick > > up > > when they get back to the "zap culture". > > Parents with careers that takes up time often produce children that have > > similar traits to the bi-polar. > > Some parents think that if their children dont do ballet, appreciate > art, > > go > > to sports, actually they contribute to the vast amount of stimuli that > the > > youth are allready under. Monday, ballet lessons, Tuesday piano, > Wedensday > > football, Thursday swimming, Friday art lessons. Weekends are spent > zapping > > the TV and practising all the other things they attend during the week. > On > > top of this they have a normal curricullum of schooling. When on > vacation, > > the kids dont know what to do with themselves. They are addicted to > being > > busy. We adults have also contributed to a feeling of being not worthy > if > > the children dont achieve enough. > > > A trustworthy test would be, if lithium works > > > on a subject, then he or she is bipolar – but this > > > too is not addressed in the literature I’ve found. > > > Thanks for reading; > > > Squiggles > > How can one know if Lithium works if the individual has had no symptoms? > > Also there is the dynamic I have described of being busy all the time. > > Lithium would be of no use to such people. It would stop them from > > achieving > > and actualising themselves. That problem is a social problem and not a > > bi-polar one. It is best treated by having the most severe cases living > in > > a > > sociotherapeutic environment for a while. > > Wordy > > Jingle Jangle Jingle > > Here comes Mr. Bingle > > With another message from Kris Kringle > > — > Thanks for going into the trouble Wordy.  This is > a psychosocial perspective I suppose, which is significant > in its context.  I can see Jock’s point that it is unlikely > that anyone would prescribe lithium without good reason, > i.e. without witnessing symptoms of bipolarism – that is > what my doctor did – alas, you have probably heard of > differential diagnosis  - that is something done in medicine > which is necessitated by the many possible causes for the > same symptoms.  Shish – nothing is simple! > Well, actually I still want to hear from people who > have taken it or know of those who have taken it and who > are normal -testimonials or research. > I appreciate your critique for the environmental influences > in taking any of these drugs. > Squiggles > Squiggles – I have taken lithium in 1989.  They wanted to augment ADs I was > taking to see if something would work.  What it did was exactly what this > Doctor above said here.  It flattened me so depressed it was the most > horrible experience.  I’d put it in the BIG YUK category of 10.  I retained > fluid horribly, and had some awful tremor going on.  Considering my problem > with easy weight gain and drugs, a long term round with lithium would have > turned me into that Michelin man for sure.  I tell you about the time they > tried to augment with Amphetamines with an AD about a months or so later. > It also makes the list. > Carrie

Thanks Carrie, obviously sucked for you; still waiting for that elusive test of lithium on control subjects – i have had trouble finding this stuff; btw the highly respected, original research of lithium, Dr. Mogens Schou, actually tried it on himself (very honourable) and so did the disoverere – Cade. But I am looking for studies, studies, thanks – hope you are better now; Squiggles

Response:

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> Squiggles, I passed your question along to a mental health professional > friend of mine.  Here is his response. > Squiggles wrote… > > Hi everyone, > > I am still searching for a good reply to this > > question:  "What is the effect of lithium > > on normal (i.e. not bipolar) subjects? > Jock: I could think of no other reason to prescribe Lithium other than for > the relief of bi-polar disorder. It has so many bad, I mean REAL bad side > effects that there would be no justification of non bi-polar’s in using it. > The extreme weight gain should not be underestimated. I have known patients > to gain 60 pounds in a month. > So I would not recommend prescribing it to "normal" patients. OTOH the idea > of testing on 2 groups i.e. bi-polar and non bi-polar would be interesting. > Because there is no study that I have heard of, I can only guess what it > would do. I would guess it would "flatten" emotions. Having ups and down > days is very normal. Being sad or a bit depressed is human and not a bad > thing. OTOH its also very normal to feel elated. That new job, new love in > ones life or realising your dream is all very legitimate reasons to be > elated. > So my guess is that Lithium would have the same side effects (they are > purely physical and can be measured in the bloodstream) but would make the > patient lose the ups and downs. > Maybe it is noticed that Asian people especially from the far south eastern > part are very level minded. Often they dont show emotions. This has become > an ethnical trait but can be traced back to the effects of a salt like > mineral in south far east Asian rivers. This mineral is the one that > Lithium > imitates. The noticable flattened out emotion of Chinese and other south > east Asians that have emigrated to other parts pf the world and still have > their offspring being rather "flat" emotionally is a passed down thing from > one generation to another. The fact that Chinese dont often intermarry > causes the offspring to act in this fashion as well. We all have a great > effect on one another. Chinese people usually living in the same part of > town ( i.e. Chinatown) is an explanation of peering among Chinese > youngsters. This peering causes them to have the same traits in life. > > I would like to add this piece of information > > to my lithium site.  I am also personally interested > > in extraneous circumstances which may distort > > the diagnosis of bipolar. > Jock: Peer pressure and the tendancy of our youth today of being addicted > to > stimuli. Flashing lights, thumping music, electrical beats etc, etc causes > our youth to be actually addicted to stimuli. When it is quiet and they are > in a place of tranquility, the youth tend to get depressed. But will pick > up > when they get back to the "zap culture". > Parents with careers that takes up time often produce children that have > similar traits to the bi-polar. > Some parents think that if their children dont do ballet, appreciate art, > go > to sports, actually they contribute to the vast amount of stimuli that the > youth are allready under. Monday, ballet lessons, Tuesday piano, Wedensday > football, Thursday swimming, Friday art lessons. Weekends are spent zapping > the TV and practising all the other things they attend during the week. On > top of this they have a normal curricullum of schooling. When on vacation, > the kids dont know what to do with themselves. They are addicted to being > busy. We adults have also contributed to a feeling of being not worthy if > the children dont achieve enough. > > A trustworthy test would be, if lithium works > > on a subject, then he or she is bipolar – but this > > too is not addressed in the literature I’ve found. > > Thanks for reading; > > Squiggles > How can one know if Lithium works if the individual has had no symptoms? > Also there is the dynamic I have described of being busy all the time. > Lithium would be of no use to such people. It would stop them from > achieving > and actualising themselves. That problem is a social problem and not a > bi-polar one. It is best treated by having the most severe cases living in > a > sociotherapeutic environment for a while. > Wordy > Jingle Jangle Jingle > Here comes Mr. Bingle > With another message from Kris Kringle > — > Thanks for going into the trouble Wordy.  This is > a psychosocial perspective I suppose, which is significant > in its context.  I can see Jock’s point that it is unlikely > that anyone would prescribe lithium without good reason, > i.e. without witnessing symptoms of bipolarism – that is > what my doctor did – alas, you have probably heard of > differential diagnosis  - that is something done in medicine > which is necessitated by the many possible causes for the > same symptoms.  Shish – nothing is simple! > Well, actually I still want to hear from people who > have taken it or know of those who have taken it and who > are normal -testimonials or research. > I appreciate your critique for the environmental influences > in taking any of these drugs. > Squiggles

Squiggles – I have taken lithium in 1989.  They wanted to augment ADs I was taking to see if something would work.  What it did was exactly what this Doctor above said here.  It flattened me so depressed it was the most horrible experience.  I’d put it in the BIG YUK category of 10.  I retained fluid horribly, and had some awful tremor going on.  Considering my problem with easy weight gain and drugs, a long term round with lithium would have turned me into that Michelin man for sure.  I tell you about the time they tried to augment with Amphetamines with an AD about a months or so later. It also makes the list. Carrie

Response:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – > Squiggles, I passed your question along to a mental health professional > friend of mine.  Here is his response. > Squiggles wrote… > Hi everyone, > I am still searching for a good reply to this > question:  "What is the effect of lithium > on normal (i.e. not bipolar) subjects? > Jock: I could think of no other reason to prescribe Lithium other than for > the relief of bi-polar disorder. It has so many bad, I mean REAL bad side > effects that there would be no justification of non bi-polar’s in using it. > The extreme weight gain should not be underestimated. I have known patients > to gain 60 pounds in a month. > So I would not recommend prescribing it to "normal" patients. OTOH the idea > of testing on 2 groups i.e. bi-polar and non bi-polar would be interesting. > Because there is no study that I have heard of, I can only guess what it > would do. I would guess it would "flatten" emotions. Having ups and down > days is very normal. Being sad or a bit depressed is human and not a bad > thing. OTOH its also very normal to feel elated. That new job, new love in > ones life or realising your dream is all very legitimate reasons to be > elated. > So my guess is that Lithium would have the same side effects (they are > purely physical and can be measured in the bloodstream) but would make the > patient lose the ups and downs. > Maybe it is noticed that Asian people especially from the far south eastern > part are very level minded. Often they dont show emotions. This has become > an ethnical trait but can be traced back to the effects of a salt like > mineral in south far east Asian rivers. This mineral is the one that > Lithium > imitates. The noticable flattened out emotion of Chinese and other south > east Asians that have emigrated to other parts pf the world and still have > their offspring being rather "flat" emotionally is a passed down thing from > one generation to another. The fact that Chinese dont often intermarry > causes the offspring to act in this fashion as well. We all have a great > effect on one another. Chinese people usually living in the same part of > town ( i.e. Chinatown) is an explanation of peering among Chinese > youngsters. This peering causes them to have the same traits in life. > I would like to add this piece of information > to my lithium site.  I am also personally interested > in extraneous circumstances which may distort > the diagnosis of bipolar. > Jock: Peer pressure and the tendancy of our youth today of being addicted > to > stimuli. Flashing lights, thumping music, electrical beats etc, etc causes > our youth to be actually addicted to stimuli. When it is quiet and they are > in a place of tranquility, the youth tend to get depressed. But will pick > up > when they get back to the "zap culture". > Parents with careers that takes up time often produce children that have > similar traits to the bi-polar. > Some parents think that if their children dont do ballet, appreciate art, > go > to sports, actually they contribute to the vast amount of stimuli that the > youth are allready under. Monday, ballet lessons, Tuesday piano, Wedensday > football, Thursday swimming, Friday art lessons. Weekends are spent zapping > the TV and practising all the other things they attend during the week. On > top of this they have a normal curricullum of schooling. When on vacation, > the kids dont know what to do with themselves. They are addicted to being > busy. We adults have also contributed to a feeling of being not worthy if > the children dont achieve enough. > A trustworthy test would be, if lithium works > on a subject, then he or she is bipolar – but this > too is not addressed in the literature I’ve found. > Thanks for reading; > Squiggles > How can one know if Lithium works if the individual has had no symptoms? > Also there is the dynamic I have described of being busy all the time. > Lithium would be of no use to such people. It would stop them from > achieving > and actualising themselves. That problem is a social problem and not a > bi-polar one. It is best treated by having the most severe cases living in > a > sociotherapeutic environment for a while. > Wordy > Jingle Jangle Jingle > Here comes Mr. Bingle > With another message from Kris Kringle > —

Thanks for going into the trouble Wordy.  This is a psychosocial perspective I suppose, which is significant in its context.  I can see Jock’s point that it is unlikely that anyone would prescribe lithium without good reason, i.e. without witnessing symptoms of bipolarism – that is what my doctor did – alas, you have probably heard of differential diagnosis  - that is something done in medicine which is necessitated by the many possible causes for the same symptoms.  Shish – nothing is simple! Well, actually I still want to hear from people who have taken it or know of those who have taken it and who are normal -testimonials or research. I appreciate your critique for the environmental influences in taking any of these drugs. Squiggles

Response:

Hi everyone, I am still searching for a good reply to this question:  "What is the effect of lithium on normal (i.e. not bipolar) subjects? I would like to add this piece of information to my lithium site.  I am also personally interested in extraneous circumstances which may distort the diagnosis of bipolar. A trustworthy test would be, if lithium works on a subject, then he or she is bipolar – but this too is not addressed in the literature I’ve found. Thanks for reading; Squiggles

Response:

Squiggles, I passed your question along to a mental health professional friend of mine.  Here is his response. Squiggles wrote… > Hi everyone, > I am still searching for a good reply to this > question:  "What is the effect of lithium > on normal (i.e. not bipolar) subjects?

Jock: I could think of no other reason to prescribe Lithium other than for the relief of bi-polar disorder. It has so many bad, I mean REAL bad side effects that there would be no justification of non bi-polar’s in using it. The extreme weight gain should not be underestimated. I have known patients to gain 60 pounds in a month. So I would not recommend prescribing it to "normal" patients. OTOH the idea of testing on 2 groups i.e. bi-polar and non bi-polar would be interesting. Because there is no study that I have heard of, I can only guess what it would do. I would guess it would "flatten" emotions. Having ups and down days is very normal. Being sad or a bit depressed is human and not a bad thing. OTOH its also very normal to feel elated. That new job, new love in ones life or realising your dream is all very legitimate reasons to be elated. So my guess is that Lithium would have the same side effects (they are purely physical and can be measured in the bloodstream) but would make the patient lose the ups and downs. Maybe it is noticed that Asian people especially from the far south eastern part are very level minded. Often they dont show emotions. This has become an ethnical trait but can be traced back to the effects of a salt like mineral in south far east Asian rivers. This mineral is the one that Lithium imitates. The noticable flattened out emotion of Chinese and other south east Asians that have emigrated to other parts pf the world and still have their offspring being rather "flat" emotionally is a passed down thing from one generation to another. The fact that Chinese dont often intermarry causes the offspring to act in this fashion as well. We all have a great effect on one another. Chinese people usually living in the same part of town ( i.e. Chinatown) is an explanation of peering among Chinese youngsters. This peering causes them to have the same traits in life. > I would like to add this piece of information > to my lithium site.  I am also personally interested > in extraneous circumstances which may distort > the diagnosis of bipolar.

Jock: Peer pressure and the tendancy of our youth today of being addicted to stimuli. Flashing lights, thumping music, electrical beats etc, etc causes our youth to be actually addicted to stimuli. When it is quiet and they are in a place of tranquility, the youth tend to get depressed. But will pick up when they get back to the "zap culture". Parents with careers that takes up time often produce children that have similar traits to the bi-polar. Some parents think that if their children dont do ballet, appreciate art, go to sports, actually they contribute to the vast amount of stimuli that the youth are allready under. Monday, ballet lessons, Tuesday piano, Wedensday football, Thursday swimming, Friday art lessons. Weekends are spent zapping the TV and practising all the other things they attend during the week. On top of this they have a normal curricullum of schooling. When on vacation, the kids dont know what to do with themselves. They are addicted to being busy. We adults have also contributed to a feeling of being not worthy if the children dont achieve enough. > A trustworthy test would be, if lithium works > on a subject, then he or she is bipolar – but this > too is not addressed in the literature I’ve found. > Thanks for reading; > Squiggles

How can one know if Lithium works if the individual has had no symptoms? Also there is the dynamic I have described of being busy all the time. Lithium would be of no use to such people. It would stop them from achieving and actualising themselves. That problem is a social problem and not a bi-polar one. It is best treated by having the most severe cases living in a sociotherapeutic environment for a while. Wordy Jingle Jangle Jingle Here comes Mr. Bingle With another message from Kris Kringle —

Response: