SSRIs

Question:

I have recently been placed on 50mg of Zoloft/day for my depression. For the first two days I had a constant erection, which has now subsided. I am now at day 10. However, I have noticed that now I cannot reach orgasm and my penis has grown. Does anyone here have any input on what I can do about this problem? Has anyone else experienced these types of change? I really haven’t noticed any changes in my mood except that now i feel like I’ve consumed a low dose of LSD. The first two days were horrible. I was nausiated and jittery. I couldn’t concentrate. I was taking ReVia with this so I would not be inclined to drink, but that pill makes me feel awful. I stopped taking Revia on day three and things have gotten a little better. What else can I expect from this/these drug(s)?

Response:

>I really haven’t noticed any changes in my mood except that now i feel like >I’ve consumed a low dose of LSD. The first two days were horrible. I was >nausiated and jittery. I couldn’t concentrate. I was taking ReVia with this >so I would not be inclined to drink, but that pill makes me feel awful. I >stopped taking Revia on day three and things have gotten a little better. >What else can I expect from this/these drug(s)?

Never tried Zoloft but the first time I tried Prozac it induced what felt exactly like an LSD flashback, and just like previous flashbacks it caused my left pupil to dilate.  I tried Prozac several times after (in a recreational attempt) but the sensation never recurred.

Response:

> >I really haven’t noticed any changes in my mood except that now i feel like >I’ve consumed a low dose of LSD. The first two days were horrible. I was >nausiated and jittery. I couldn’t concentrate. I was taking ReVia with this >so I would not be inclined to drink, but that pill makes me feel awful. I >stopped taking Revia on day three and things have gotten a little better. >What else can I expect from this/these drug(s)? > Never tried Zoloft but the first time I tried Prozac it induced what > felt exactly like an LSD flashback, and just like previous flashbacks > it caused my left pupil to dilate.  I tried Prozac several times > after (in a recreational attempt) but the sensation never recurred.

I got the same thing!  The first time I was on Prozac, I had LSD type feelings for almost a week at the beginning.  It was unsettling, but not unpleasant. I have also been on Wellbutrin and Celexa over the years.  Wellbutrin didn’t have the LSD effect.  Celexa had intense "body rushes" for the first week. Anyone know why an antidepressant would trigger LSD type feelings?

Response:

http://www.cs.hmc.edu/~ivl/writing/non_fiction/lsd/

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> >I really haven’t noticed any changes in my mood except that now i feel like > >I’ve consumed a low dose of LSD. The first two days were horrible. I was > >nausiated and jittery. I couldn’t concentrate. I was taking ReVia with this > >so I would not be inclined to drink, but that pill makes me feel awful. I > >stopped taking Revia on day three and things have gotten a little better. > >What else can I expect from this/these drug(s)? > Never tried Zoloft but the first time I tried Prozac it induced what > felt exactly like an LSD flashback, and just like previous flashbacks > it caused my left pupil to dilate.  I tried Prozac several times > after (in a recreational attempt) but the sensation never recurred. > I got the same thing!  The first time I was on Prozac, I had LSD type > feelings for almost a week at the beginning.  It was unsettling, but not > unpleasant. > I have also been on Wellbutrin and Celexa over the years.  Wellbutrin > didn’t have the LSD effect.  Celexa had intense "body rushes" for the > first week. > Anyone know why an antidepressant would trigger LSD type feelings?

Response:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> >I really haven’t noticed any changes in my mood except that now i feel like > >I’ve consumed a low dose of LSD. The first two days were horrible. I was > >nausiated and jittery. I couldn’t concentrate. I was taking ReVia with this > >so I would not be inclined to drink, but that pill makes me feel awful. I > >stopped taking Revia on day three and things have gotten a little better. > >What else can I expect from this/these drug(s)? > Never tried Zoloft but the first time I tried Prozac it induced what > felt exactly like an LSD flashback, and just like previous flashbacks > it caused my left pupil to dilate.  I tried Prozac several times > after (in a recreational attempt) but the sensation never recurred. >I got the same thing!  The first time I was on Prozac, I had LSD type >feelings for almost a week at the beginning.  It was unsettling, but not >unpleasant. >I have also been on Wellbutrin and Celexa over the years.  Wellbutrin >didn’t have the LSD effect.  Celexa had intense "body rushes" for the >first week. >Anyone know why an antidepressant would trigger LSD type feelings?

This fellow drug eater might. They often use SSRIs etc for "trips" it would seem http://users.lycaeum.org/~mort/lsd_05.html [BACKGROUND] So, it’s Thanksgiving Break. I’ve been pretty goddamn bored, spending my time toking. Tuesday rolls around. Standard day. Phone call at one from a friend, who we’ll call H. H and J, my best friend, are coming over, or something. I figure a change of routine will provide an escape from my chronic ennui, so I say ok. Half an hour later, they’re over. Big surprise, though: H gives me 2 hits of acid. Liquid dropped onto a Sweet Tart, or so he claims. I figure it’s probably more like 1 hit, but what the fuck. I buy another 2 hit sweettart from H, as I find low-hit trips to be pretty banal. I also make some impromptu plans. My older brother was flying in Wednesday, and would be here till sunday, so Tuesday was the last night I had before spring break. It was set, then: I would trip that night. J couldn’t come, so it was going to be solo. I’d been wanting to try tripping solo for a while, so I was set, pretty much. Again, I was a bit concerned over whether the acid would work or not. H isn’t really a dealer, but the stuff he gets tends to be of questionable quality. And there was my SSRI’s, 50mg sertraline a day, had been doing it for about two months. I figure that the worst that could happen is that nothing works, and I waste $10. I’d tripped before with the SSRI’s once, but there was also a time when I ate a hit and nothing happened. Ah well. H and I left around 3. I had an appointment at 4, so I took care of that. Coming home, I remembered I’d forgotten to take that day’s dose of sertraline; fixed that. It was around 5. Ate a small dinner at 6. I planned to drop about 7:30-8:00, as with the SSRIs acid seemed to take longer to kick in. I also considered taking some Adderall – a cocktail of pharmaceutical (dextro-)amphetamine salts – with the acid, as I’d heard good things about acid with amphetamines; from what I’d heard, it was nothing like speedy acid. On the contrary, speed takes the edge off acid a bit. It was worth a shot, and I’d had virtually nothing but positive experience with adderall. I gave it a go. After eating dinner, I performed some informal meditation. I’d learned about the importance of set and setting my last trip, and I was determined to make this a positive experience. I cogitated for a bit on what I wanted to achieve with this trip. Now, I’ll go into a bit of background. During the summer, I had a pretty steady flow of cash from an informal job (working for my parent’s business, heh), so money for drugs was no problem. I also wasn’t into pot, in the beginning of the summer anyway. So basically, I had both the money and the time for frequent tripping. I built a lot of experience in those 3 months, but due to some really bad circumstances in August – friend flipping out, parents finding out about drugs – I had to stop indefinitely. Money was also an issue. I was put on sertraline, aka Zoloft, for depression. Fucked around with benzos for a while. Fucked around with ritalin for a while. Then finally, a few weeks ago, I amassed four hits from various sources and daytripped at the Renaissance Fair. It was so different; acid really does seem to change character immensely from trip to trip. While it was quantitavely in the vicinity of 4 hits, it was much different qualitavely, especially the visual aspect. Tripping in broad daylight, something I’d only done with 1.5 hits, might have had something to do with it also. Anyway, I found myself with the opportunity for a classic trip. Maybe would even resemble my first time (which was also solo). I decided that my goals were: [SET] -to further gauge the impact of SSRI’s on acid -to attempt to understand the meaning of a lot of music I’d wanted to listen to whilst frying -to experiment with the acid/adderall combo -to further experiment with the acid/marijuana combo; had done this many times, but they were before I had overly psychedelic effects from pot; -and to use the perspective endowed on me to scope my current position in life, to evaluate where I want to go from here. [SETTING] was going to be my house (primarily, my room), which was where I’d spent almost all of my trips. I figured I’d be off baseline by 9 and peak around 1. I had no idea how/if I was going to get to sleep. My parents wake up early, but they both work. I figured I’d get in bed around 6 am, and either sleep or just trip in bed until my parents got out of the house, which would have been 7-7:30. I had free reign from then until noon or so. I was running low on pot, but I was counting on using all of it that night; I figured I’d sedate myself with mass quantities of it if I really really couldn’t sleep. And, in the event of disaster, I had a milligram of klonopin. I hate the benzo feeling with a passion, but it’s nice to know that there IS a panic button. Shortly before taking the acid, I was hit by a sudden attack of anxiety. Was really weird. I was nervous as hell, but not about anything in particular. It’s not like I was apprehensive about the trip at all; I had all this anxiety, but it was unfocused, not directed towards anything. I took a shit, smoked a cigarette, and it cleared up. [NARRATIVE ^ 11/23/99] 21:10: I take 30mg of Adderall. I had wanted to get this out of the way as early as possible, as it really, really impedes sleep, and I did NOT need that. 21:25: I eat the acid. As mentioned, it was in the form of sweet-tarts. I crunched both of them up and swallowed them. Yum. The quality of said acid was extremely dubitous; H had gotten it from some stranger. One of those guys that claims to make his own acid with moldy rye bread. H claimed that it was good stuff, but he’s said that about a lot of things. 21:25-22:00: I kill time. IRC, guitar. The adderall appeared quite early, maybe around 7:35, 7:40. It put me in a naturally good and stimulated state of mind, which is what I’d been hoping; I anticipated that the adderall would set the stage for the acid and allow a more positive experience. I did have a concern about acid and adderall. Adderall, and Ritalin too, for that matter, turns me into a person I don’t like. With Ritalin (which I stopped doing altogether a while ago), I didn’t notice when I was on it, but as I came down I saw what a prick I’d been. I actually had a lot of personal revelations and insights on a really horrible Rit comedown; they were almost entheogenic in their depth, but unfortunately they didn’t really last that long. That’s a different story, though. Anyway, Adderall makes me a manipulative dick as well, but it allows me to see this, unlike Ritalin. I was worried that the ego dissolution of the acid would do bad things with the ego strengthening of the adderall. As the adderall was starting to kick in, I remembered having absentmindedly taken that sertraline a few hours ago. Fuck! I wasn’t sure if SSRIs inhibited acid short-term; like, if taking an SSRI neutralizes acid. I hoped it didn’t. The time I’d tripped with SSRI’s before, I had refrained from taking my daily dose. 20:00-22:00: Phone rings at 8. It’s H. He’s been kicked out of his house, and needs a place to stay the night. He apparently hadn’t had permission to hang out with us earlier, and his parents are fascists. I didn’t want to get into their business, so I made it clear with him that I was just making sure he had a place to stay for the night. My parents didn’t mind at all, so here I am, driving over to pick up a friend who’s been kicked out of his house while waiting for 4 hits of acid to kick in. Nice. I pick him up, drive back home. We did a bunch of pedestrian stuff; ate, I played guitar for a bit, yadda yadda. The adderall was making me talkative as a mofo, so I was expounding drug knowledge to H, who is, unfortunately, rather tardly as far as believing urban drug myths goes. I educated him on the nature of the drug war and on various rare psychedelics. My state of mind at this point was all waiting. I was waiting for that bizarre acid weirdness, and I wasn’t getting it. I *was* getting extremely vague hallucinations and such, but hey, it was probably because I was looking for them. My analysis of the situation was that the lifting-off feel of the acid was overshadowed by the adderall, which would explain why I had virtually no mental effects, but mild visual effects. 22:45: H and I go out in the backyard to spark a bowl. We have some trouble getting started – it’s windy, my lighters stink, and we had to change a screen – but we … read more »

Response:

I found I grew a third testicle.

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> I have recently been placed on 50mg of Zoloft/day for my depression. For the > first two days I had a constant erection, which has now subsided. I am now > at day 10. However, I have noticed that now I cannot reach orgasm and my > penis has grown. Does anyone here have any input on what I can do about this > problem? Has anyone else experienced these types of change? > I really haven’t noticed any changes in my mood except that now i feel like > I’ve consumed a low dose of LSD. The first two days were horrible. I was > nausiated and jittery. I couldn’t concentrate. I was taking ReVia with this > so I would not be inclined to drink, but that pill makes me feel awful. I > stopped taking Revia on day three and things have gotten a little better. > What else can I expect from this/these drug(s)?

Response:

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> I have recently been placed on 50mg of Zoloft/day for my depression. For the > first two days I had a constant erection, which has now subsided. I am now > at day 10. However, I have noticed that now I cannot reach orgasm and my > penis has grown. Does anyone here have any input on what I can do about this > problem? Has anyone else experienced these types of change? > I really haven’t noticed any changes in my mood except that now i feel like > I’ve consumed a low dose of LSD. The first two days were horrible. I was > nausiated and jittery. I couldn’t concentrate. I was taking ReVia with this > so I would not be inclined to drink, but that pill makes me feel awful. I > stopped taking Revia on day three and things have gotten a little better. > What else can I expect from this/these drug(s)?

you can expect Adverse Reactions Zoloft may cause the following reactions: fast heart rate, palpitations dizziness or lightheadedness fast talking, excited feelings skin rash, itching (hives) unusual tiredness or weakness confusion flushing sweating muscle spasms nausea, vomiting diarrhea decreased appetite weight loss dry mouth vaginitis insomnia headache indigestion, fatigue insomnia nervousness stupor please note Interactions with Drugs and Other Substances Drugs or substances that may interact with Zoloft are: illicit drugs (LSD, cocaine, methamphetamine) http://www.whatmeds.com/meds/zyprexa.html – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text –

Response:

Question:

I’m taking two Wellbutrin and one Prozac (20 mg.) each day.  Is there any reason he would have me taking them in combo?  What side effects can I expect?  Thanks for any help. Posted Via Uncensored-News.Com – Still Only $9.95 – http://www.uncensored-news.com       <><><><><><><>   The Worlds Uncensored News Source   <><><><><><><><>

Response:

> I’m taking two Wellbutrin and one Prozac (20 mg.) each day.  Is there > any reason he would have me taking them in combo?  What side effects > can I expect?  Thanks for any help.

One reason is that Prozac can have sexual side effects and Wellbutrin can help to counter that. Bruce.

Response:

Don’t know why for sure, but since both work on different neurotransmitters you might get more benefit.  I was on Paxil and later Zoloft (both in the same class as Prozac) and thought it was a good combo.  Also Wellbutrin helped with feeling tired.

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> I’m taking two Wellbutrin and one Prozac (20 mg.) each day.  Is there > any reason he would have me taking them in combo?  What side effects > can I expect?  Thanks for any help. > One reason is that Prozac can have sexual side effects and Wellbutrin can > help to counter that. > Bruce.

Response:

>I’m taking two Wellbutrin and one Prozac (20 mg.) each day.  Is there >any reason he would have me taking them in combo?  What side effects >can I expect?  Thanks for any help.

It’s not entirely unreasonable. While I’m no fan of fluoxetine (Prozac), it does have benefits for many people and has been used with bupropion (Wellbutrin) for hard to treat cases. I’m currently on citalopram (Celexa) 20mg tid, bupropion (Wellbutrin) SR 150mg tid, as well as mood stabilisers. I haven’t had any problems with my med combinations, although like the saying goes, what works for me might not work for you. Darren.

Response:

>I’m taking two Wellbutrin and one Prozac (20 mg.) each day.  Is there >any reason he would have me taking them in combo?

SBN, I think the best person to ask is your  doctor.  The responses have all seemed reasonable, but no one here is a mind reader.  Only your doc knows why he prescribed it.  And it is always good to ask a doc, any doc, why they are prescribing something – what is it supposed to do; how long is going to take before you see an effect; any side effects you should look for and which ones should be contact him about immediately and which ones can hold off until the next visit; etc. Good luck, Cathy Postcard Pals: http://www.geocities.com/mensan_Cathy Affective Friends: http://www.geocities.com/postcard_Cathy Kutsher’s Camp Anawana: http://www.geocities.com/kutsherscampanawana Hewlett High School: http://www.geocities.com/hewlettalumni

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Question:

I am on xanax & zoloft already. Today my Dr also gave me risperdal. She almost went with lithium. Does anyone know anything about risperdal?

Response:

Hi, > I am on xanax & zoloft already. Today my Dr also gave me risperdal. She > almost went with lithium. Does anyone know anything about risperdal?

Risperdal is an newer antipsychotic medication. It is used for psychotic symptoms that may accopnay a manic episode. MS are the first line treatment for people with BP illness. ADs alone have the potential of triggering mania. Peace, Reach beyond your grasp!

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I have been on and off Risperidal for almost 3 years. It really helps me. It’s not as sedating as the other anti-psychotics, and for me anyways, I don;t feel lke a zombie(though sometimes I’d like to).

Response:

>Well, I just had a Dr appt. today and she gave me zoloft. I have also been on >xanax for 3 weeks. What will zoloft do for me? side effects? I have panic >attacks and depression but they want to work on the panic first. If both drugs >are for panic, why do i need both? How will zoloft make me feel? Will i tell a >difference?

Zoloft is a SSRI antidepressant, but one that is (typically: YMMV) mildly sedating. It also has some effects on panic. It takes a while to take hold, therefore the Xanax. I’ve been on that combination at one time in the past.

Response:

Try the County, I don’t know which one your in, but they pay all for me and I get a fee waiver for psych. appts., therapy and meds. They rarely say no to anyone.  USUALLY!!!

Response:

Well, I just had a Dr appt. today and she gave me zoloft. I have also been on xanax for 3 weeks. What will zoloft do for me? side effects? I have panic attacks and depression but they want to work on the panic first. If both drugs are for panic, why do i need both? How will zoloft make me feel? Will i tell a difference? Also, I do not work b/c of my panic attacks. I have not worked in 6yrs b/c i had a child and stayed home with him and since Aug 97 my attacks are so bad i CANNOT work. I have no insurance & do not qualify for state & fed. help because I live with my fiance. He makes little so we cannot afford ins. Someone told me to try ssi. Would they help? I have only been on meds for 3 weeks.

Response:

                    DE  DIGITALE  STAD Op 26 Feb 1999, MandMandM3 schreef: > Well, I just had a Dr appt. today and she gave me zoloft. I have also been on > xanax for 3 weeks. What will zoloft do for me? side effects? I have panic > attacks and depression but they want to work on the panic first. If both drugs > are for panic, why do i need both? How will zoloft make me feel? Will i tell a

Zoloft is an SSRI. SSRIs are useful in panic disorders. However it will take 3 to 8 weeks before benefit of SSRIs in panic disorder may be noticed. Xanax is a benzodiazepine, they are useful in panic disorders and work immediately. Because SSRIs can actually cause a slight worsening of symptoms in the beginning of therapy, your doc might have decided to give Xanax as well, so overcoming this first period will be easier, and the effects of the therapy are noted faster. Benzodiazepines are also the basis of treatment of panic disorders, and you’ve received the famous SSRI combo for panic disorder. It’s quite common, my guess is that if this proves to be not effective enough after dosage adjustments and all he will add buspirone (buspar), fenfluramine, trazodone or nefazodone. The first of those being the more likely. > difference? Also, I do not work b/c of my panic attacks. I have not worked in > 6yrs b/c i had a child and stayed home with him and since Aug 97 my attacks are > so bad i CANNOT work. I have no insurance & do not qualify for state & fed. > help because I live with my fiance. He makes little so we cannot afford ins. > Someone told me to try ssi. Would they help? I have only been on meds for 3

It might still take some weeks before the benefits of the treatment become apparent, and maybe even more if the meds need to be adjusted. Be patient, panic disorder is treatable. Taking your meds spaced over the day, and drinking no or almost no coffee can increase the effectiveness of treatment. > weeks.

GreetinX & Good Luck !        X        X       Bas p.s: There’s a newsgroup called alt.support.anxiety.panic which is on this type of disease. I consider you welcome here, but they might be able to give you more support.

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Question:

Anyone know of an on-line pharmacy where I can get prozac (generic) w/o a prescription?  I’ve been taking it for years, but don’t currently have health insurance.

Response:

> Anyone know of an on-line pharmacy where I can get prozac (generic) > w/o a prescription?  I’ve been taking it for years, but don’t > currently have health insurance.

Those online pharmacies that will prescribe for you will end up costing you more than a doctor’s visit without insurance. They have a high "consultation fee", charge more (in most cases) for the drug than your local pharmacy, and there are rumors that often they are selling outdated meds. ALSO, if you go to a doctor, they may be able to hook you up with a program for reduced cost meds. All the drug companies have some kind of program.

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> Anyone know of an on-line pharmacy where I can get prozac (generic) > w/o a prescription?  I’ve been taking it for years, but don’t > currently have health insurance.

healthcarepharma.com has 30 caps x 20 mg fluoxetine for $31. Is that a good price?

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> > Anyone know of an on-line pharmacy where I can get prozac (generic) > w/o a prescription?  I’ve been taking it for years, but don’t > currently have health insurance. > healthcarepharma.com has 30 caps x 20 mg fluoxetine for $31. Is that a good > price?

Yes, that’s a good price.  Have you ever used them? The Dr.’s consult alone would cost me $180.  Some of the on-line places do it w/o consult or prescription.  That is if they’re legitimate.

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> healthcarepharma.com

Hmmm I dunno, I don’t trust any site I can’t find any contact info on.

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> healthcarepharma.com has 30 caps x 20 mg fluoxetine for $31. Is that a good > price? > Yes, that’s a good price.  Have you ever used them?

Yes, they’re an offshore supplier, mostly European pharmaceutical products, based on what I’ve gotten from them. Guaranteed delivery, and they seem to bend over backwards on the customer service side. That said, there’s a risk with any importation. I believe there’s a discussion of the issues, and their experience with US customers on the site, after you register. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> The Dr.’s consult alone would cost me $180.  Some of the on-line > places do it w/o consult or prescription.  That is if they’re > legitimate.

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Not all online pharmacies charge a consultation fee. I’ve used two of them. One from Mexico and one from India. Neither charged a consult fee. The one from Mexico is www.medsmex.com. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> Those online pharmacies that will prescribe for you will end up costing you > more than a doctor’s visit without insurance. They have a high "consultation > fee", charge more (in most cases) for the drug than your local pharmacy, and > there are rumors that often they are selling outdated meds. > ALSO, if you go to a doctor, they may be able to hook you up with a program > for reduced cost meds. All the drug companies have some kind of program.

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I’ve bought several prescriptions at www.medsmex.com. You can pay with Paypal and they’re shipped promptly. No prescription needed. Generic Prozac is $29.95 for 28 pills of 20 mg. strength.

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> Anyone know of an on-line pharmacy where I can get prozac (generic) > w/o a prescription?  I’ve been taking it for years, but don’t > currently have health insurance.

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Here’s another online pharmacy that does not require a consultation to order meds: www.1drugstore-online.com They have brandnames and generics. They carry Prozac, Paxil, Buspar, Wellbutrin, Celexa, etc.

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> Anyone know of an on-line pharmacy where I can get prozac (generic) > w/o a prescription?  I’ve been taking it for years, but don’t > currently have health insurance.

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Here’s another one. Try www.1drugstore-online.com No prescription needed. They have Prozac, Buspar, Wellbutrin, Celexa, Paxil, etc. both brand names and generics. 100 tabs of Prozac, 20 mg each, is about $75. You don’t need an online consultation to order.

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> Anyone know of an on-line pharmacy where I can get prozac (generic) > w/o a prescription?  I’ve been taking it for years, but don’t > currently have health insurance.

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http://www.medicinedrugstore.com/ Kills www.xenu.net

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Question:

Of course, the biggest problem about cross posting to so many groups is that you increase the amount of people available for mud slinging once it starts and as this very post shows, some of the posts go way off track to the original question.  I suspect this thread will run and run and run….. Regards, Andrew Austin. — NLP, Neurology, Schizophrenia:  http://www.23NLPeople.com

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> > Hello, > > Please don’t think this message is spam or trollery, due to the fact > that > I posted it to several newsgroups, as it is neither. > It’s cross-posted; that’s bad enough. > Where is there a law against cross-posting? How is that "bad enough"? It’s > true that spammers and trolls often crosspost to many unrelated newsgroups. > It’s quite clear, as this guy said, that what he wrote is not spam or a > troll post, but some serious questions, and all the NGs he posted it to were > related to the topic. I don’t see anything wrong with that. What’s "bad" > about that? > > If you look at the list of NGs I posted to, you’ll see that they all are > related to the topic. > I’m posting from a depression group, not a medication group. > Are you saying that a post about the medication Prozac, certainly one of the > major anti-depressants, is not relevant to a depression group?  Please > explain. Do you see any newsgroup he posted to, to which the topic of > "Prozac" is not relevant? Is this the first time someone discussed a > medication on the depression group? > > I don’t know which newsgroup might be more likely to have someone > reading > who could give me useful input into these questions, so I’m crossposting > to > several related newsgroups. > You’re too lazy to do any research. > Asking people to share their experiences with a medication is being "lazy"? > Somehow, I don’t get that connection. Discussion with others = laziness? > > If you reply, please do not delete some of the NGs in your reply. > I’ll do as I please, just as you have done. > Of course, you can do as you please. You can go stand on your head now for > an hour, if you wish. He was just making a request. Of course he cannot > force you to do anything. Is there something wrong with his making a > request, regarding how his message is replied to? > > I will probably only read replies in one NG, and it might not be the one > you are reading it in. If you delete the others in your reply, I might > never > see it. > You post to a NG you don’t read and you reckon you’re not a troll? > I don’t see anything in his post that has the slightest connection to being > a troll. Serious questions, related to all the newsgroups he posted to. > Nothing vaguely related to trollery in that. Trolldom has nothing to do with > what or how many newsgroups one posts to, but has to do with the content of > what is written. > > Also, the e-mail address given here for me is a fake one, to avoid spam, > so do not reply via e-mail. > You’re such a man. Mashed email = troll. > Oh, you’re being macho now, insulting his manhood? A real man prints his > real e-mail address to his newsgroup posts, ensuring that he’ll get tons of > spam? A lot of people use fake e-mail addresses in their newsgroup posts, > including myself, as that’s the surest way to avoid spam, as spammers have > programs that "harvest" e-mail addresses from newsgroups. You sure have a > strange definition of what is a "troll". > There are plenty of real trolls on Usenet, especially on the mental health > newsgroups, people who ruin those NGs, filling them with trollery, so it’s > often hard to find the real discussions there. Trolls really wreck many > newsgroups. Better to spend your time fighting the real trolls, rather than > going after someone who starts a serious and relevant discussion. > (Actually, the e-mail address that you use here on the NG > not saying it isn’t, just that it doesn’t look like one to me. Is there a > real domain called "absinthebri.com"? If you yourself are using a fake > e-mail address (as many do on Usenet, to avoid spam and troll e-mails, > nothing wrong with it), why are you slamming him for doing the same thing?) > > Please reply via newsgroup, and keep all the NGs above in your reply. > Don’t tell people what to do. > Again, he made a request, he did not "tell you what to do". Yes Brian, you > are free to do as you wish. You are a free man. No one is "telling you what > to do". > > Please no troll or OT replies, only serious discussion of the issues > raised. > You post, I reply; you get what you get. You have shown Usenet no respect > whatsoever by cross-posting your troll instructions. > There is no Usenet law against cross-posting. And nothing at all trollish in > what he wrote. Again, if you want to fight trolls, there are plenty of real > ones to go after. > If you are concerned about your medication see your doctor. You are > unlikely > to get medically qualified advice here (however valid the personal > experiences may be). > Of course, only one’s personal doctor can decide what medication is right > for the patient. That said, it’s understandable that people want to share > ideas, discuss experiences, etc. Otherwise, what are these medical > newsgroups for? You could say that to anyone writing to a medical newsgroup, > asking to hear about other’s experiences–"don’t write here, see your > doctor". What are newsgroups for then, IYO, if asking about other’s > experience with a condition, treatment, medication, etc. is taboo? > I think this guy (Edgar) would have been better off if he had skipped the > part at the beginning, in which he explained why he was posting his message > to several NGs.  You might have then paid more attention to what he was > writing about. (And I see another guy answered him by only quoting that > part, and then asking "What was the question?", I guess not wanting to read > farther than that.) So, by trying to explain the cross-posting at the > beginning, some people make that the issue, rather than reading farther to > see what the man was trying to discuss. He (Edgar) should have just started > with the issue, rather than starting with an apology/explanation for > cross-posting, for which there was really no need to apologize. Or, he > should have at least left that explanation to the end, rather than at the > beginning, as it seems some people couldn’t get further than that. > Brian, you seem to be in a bad mood today. There’s really no reason to take > it out on this guy, for asking about people’s experiences with a medication. > If you want to fight trolls, there are plenty of real ones out there. > I hope there are others who really give this guy (Edgar) their input into > his questions, that this discussion doesn’t degenerate into a fight about > cross-posting.

Response:

> But in > general, do the side effects usually take the same length of time to come on > as the intended effect, or do they usually come on sooner?

They usually start immediately and become less after 2 weeks or so. MB

Response:

>If we can put the argument about "what is spam" aside, since you seem >knowledgeable about the medication, I have a further question about it for >you.

I know that I replied to you on one group only and I’d be willing to bet others did too.  Many of us feel uncomfortable posting to 10-15 ng’s.  My personal, unsolicited suggestion to you would be to check the ng’s you posted to.  You might find some valuable replies from people who really cared and took the time to write, yet didn’t cross-post. (About this one –  I don’t know what group the original poster is reading and don’t have his email address – btw, you can avoid spam and help us write to you by adding little things to your email address that would make your real address obvious to us.  I never get spam the way I’ve got my return address set up yet I do get very nice mail from people on my ng.) – Jen

Response:

> I’m saying that he’s brave for using an antispam email address while > spamming 11 groups.

I guess you have an unusual definition of the word "spam". From what I understand the meaning of the word to be, in its Internet (not canned meat) usage, it refers to unsolicited e-mail ads. That is what the anti-spam fake e-mail address for newsgroup posting protects from, as the spammers get their e-mail spam lists from newsgroups. Was there any advertising in what I wrote? I was not selling Prozac, just asking questions about it, wanting to discuss it. I explained my reason for posting to several newsgroups, that all could have some relation to the topic of Prozac. Cross-posting does not equal "spam". Spam is unsolicited unwanted bulk advertising on the Internet. > Prozac is easy to prescribe to patients, partly because its side effect > profile is much nicer than the other antidepressants given its tremendous > positive benefits.

If we can put the argument about "what is spam" aside, since you seem knowledgeable about the medication, I have a further question about it for you. (I think I asked this in another post already (not the original one), but don’t know if you saw it.) From what I have heard and read, including from my psychiatrist, it takes a while for one to start experiencing the positive benefits of Prozac, perhaps even 4 to 6 weeks. My question is: if one is also going to experience some negative side effects of Prozac, such as those discussed, will that happen at about the same time? Will that also take weeks? Or would one experience the side effects sooner-immediately, a few days, one week? Of course, I know that medications affect each individual differently, so there is no way to give a definitive answer regarding how long it might take me to feel negative side effects of the medication, if I am going to feel any. But in general, do the side effects usually take the same length of time to come on as the intended effect, or do they usually come on sooner? Thank you for your input.

Response:

>Dave, you obviously have a strong bias against medications for psychiatric >problems.

Obvious because I’m honest? Frankly, psychiatric treatment usually isn’t any better, although CBT is a vast improvement over psychoanalysis/ECT/leeches. >I don’t know whether or not Prozac might or might not help Edgar, >and what the side effects might be like for him, I’ve never taken it myself, >but I do know that a lot of people have been significantly helped by such >medications, their lives turned around. I don’t think your standpoint >automatically against such medications is correct.

I don’t think your assumption that I’m automatically against such medications is correct either.  But it’s not the first time I’ve been accused of it. > Almost guaranteed to.  It’s pretty obvious that your immune system is > messed up, with Adderall and Prozac being stimulants, it’s not going to > help. >Prozac is an anti-depressant, not a stimulant.

No.  Prozac is a SSRI. You see, depression in DSM-IV doesn’t mean depression any more.  The criteria have tended towards the symptoms of people that Prozac might actually help. >I’ve never heard that either type has an effect on the immune system. >Show us your source for either drug affecting the immune system.

It’s common sense really.  You can start with Candace Pert’s Molecules of Emotion: "every neuropeptide receptor we could find in the brain is also on the surface of the human monocyte." > You do know that Adderall is Speed, right?  The exact same Speed that > young people buy illegally, possess illegally, take in clubs illegally > and often get addicted to. >The stimulant dosages used for treatment of ADD are not at all comparable to >the dosages used by illegal recreational speed users.

Please define "not at all comparable". > I once took 400mg of Prozac.  Was fun for about an hour and a half.  You > see, it peaks after an hour.  And yet doctors tell you to take it for > 4-6 weeks.  No-one knows why. >Sounds like you are one of those recreational drug users. People don’t take >Prozac for "fun", but because it has been prescribed to them for serious >problems. And no one takes 400 mg of it at once! That’s an incredible dose. >Lucky you’re alive!

You’re right, it was 40mg.  Maximum recommended dosage is 80mg. >Yes, doctors do "know why" they prescribe medicines for the length of time they >prescribe it for.

But you don’t?  Go ask one – I’d love to hear their answer. > Dave (professional PSYCHO-therapist), http://www.deep-trance.com >You are a professional "psycho-therapist"? Hard to believe.

Like I care what you believe. >(I don’t have time to look at the web site now.) (Easier to believe the part before the >hyphen, as one might have to be "psycho" to take 400 mg of Prozac.) What are >your credentials as a psychotherapist? Is your method of therapy to put >people in a "deep trance" (from the name of your web site). Are you a >hypnotist?

I could explain it to you, but that would take a long time and you probably still wouldn’t get it.  No offence – but I’ve tried that before. No, I don’t like pushing my authority and I wouldn’t wish anyone to pander to it. The only people I give credence to are those who are able to justify what they say with common sense. Dave, http://www.deep-trance.com Goodbye freedom: http://www.theregister.co.uk/content/4/25891.html

Response:

> Nothing "brave" or "non-brave" about it. It is effective in avoiding spam, > as spammers harvest e-mail addresses from newsgroups. I do it too.

I’m saying that he’s brave for using an antispam email address while spamming 11 groups. > Prozac to the ADD med), it doesn’t sound like he is suicidal,

Patients usually don’t volunteer this information, particularly over the Internet.  And patients can *become* suicidal after starting an SSRI. There have been lawsuits in the US over it, so I suspect that doctors there are prone to ‘do something’ to try to avoid it. > Just to point out, that when you say something like "the side effects of > Prozac are trivial, compared to the effects of serious depression, suicidal > behavior, etc.", that probably is relevant to many people, but perhaps not > to this guy, if he doesn’t have those conditions, and doesn’t know whether > the Prozac will really help him at all with the organizational problems, > etc. So his weighing of the side effects might be different than with > someone who is suffering from serious depression.

I doubt it.  He hasn’t experienced any of those side effects yet.  Wait till he’s on the medication and then ask him how he feels. > What do you mean by "well liked because of its side effects"?

Prozac is easy to prescribe to patients, partly because its side effect profile is much nicer than the other antidepressants given its tremendous positive benefits.

Response:

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – >Hello, >Please don’t think this message is spam or trollery, due to the fact that I >posted it to several newsgroups, as it is neither. If you look at the list >of NGs I posted to, you’ll see that they all are related to the topic. I >don’t know which newsgroup might be more likely to have someone reading who >could give me useful input into these questions, so I’m crossposting to >several related newsgroups. >If you reply, please do not delete some of the NGs in your reply. I will >probably only read replies in one NG, and it might not be the one you are >reading it in. If you delete the others in your reply, I might never see it. >Also, the e-mail address given here for me is a fake one, to avoid spam, so >do not reply via e-mail. Please reply via newsgroup, and keep all the NGs >above in your reply. Please no troll or OT replies, only serious discussion >of the issues raised. >A few days ago I was prescribed Prozac by my psychiatrist. I just picked it >up at the pharmacy today, and  haven’t yet taken it, >Just for some background–I’m male, 50 years old, this is the first time >I’ve been prescribed any kind of anti-depressant. Just recently I was >diagnosed with ADD (non-hyperactive type-difficulty organizing, staying on >task, getting things done, etc.) and have been taking Adderall for a month. >The doctor is now adding Prozac to it, thinking that my problem might be >partially caused by anxiety. >When he first prescribed it for me on Wednesday, he specified the brand name >Prozac on the prescription, 10 mg tablets. One week taking a half tablet >once per day, then 1 tablet for the next week, 1

Question:

Anyone reading tried both the brand name and generic Prozac? Noticed any difference? (Question also applies to doctors who have prescribed both, or pharmacists who have heard feedback from customers.)

Response:

> Anyone reading tried both the brand name and generic Prozac? Noticed any > difference? (Question also applies to doctors who have prescribed both, or > pharmacists who have heard feedback from customers.)

They are identical.  All generic brands must be bioequivalent to the original.  There are a couple of medications, like morphine, for which different brands have genuinely different properties, but not fluoxetine (prozac).

Response:

> They are identical.  All generic brands must be bioequivalent to the > original.  There are a couple of medications, like morphine, for which > different brands have genuinely different properties, but not fluoxetine > (prozac).

Ahh…but the pretty packaging and higher cost of the Prozac(tm) will exert a nice placebo effect of its own, moreso i suspect than the generic fluoxetine… They should definately make the capsules bigger too or coat them in a really bitter tasting goo just for fun. Regards, Andrew Austin. — NLP, Neurology, Schizophrenia:  http://www.23NLPeople.com

Response:

>> They are identical.  All generic brands must be bioequivalent to the > original.  There are a couple of medications, like morphine, for which > different brands have genuinely different properties, but not fluoxetine > (prozac). >Ahh…but the pretty packaging and higher cost of the Prozac(tm) will exert >a nice placebo effect of its own, moreso i suspect than the generic >fluoxetine…

Or you could pay top dollar for Serafem…

Response:

> They are identical.  All generic brands must be bioequivalent to the > original.  There are a couple of medications, like morphine, for which > different brands have genuinely different properties, but not fluoxetine > (prozac).

Of course the active ingredient is identical. But can’t there be a difference in the fillers, excipients, etc. used in the tablets, and couldn’t that make a difference in absorption, etc.? With time-released the difference could be greater, no, as there could be a different method of time-releasing the med to the bloodstream?

Response:

Here is what Lilly says about generic prozac on their web site: "Generic fluoxetine is not identical to brand name Prozac in appearance. The generic prescription you pick up at the pharmacy won’t look like brand name Prozac. Receiving medication with a different color or shape may be unsettling or cause concern." So is the therapeutic effect of prozac due to its color and shape? Is it just a placebo effect after all? Also, the sarafem web site says nothing about sarafem being equivalent to prozac. Apparently, they don’t want the sarafem users to know that actually they are taking an antidepressant! cem

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text ->> They are identical.  All generic brands must be bioequivalent to the >> original.  There are a couple of medications, like morphine, for which >> different brands have genuinely different properties, but not fluoxetine >> (prozac). >Ahh…but the pretty packaging and higher cost of the Prozac(tm) will exert >a nice placebo effect of its own, moreso i suspect than the generic >fluoxetine… > Or you could pay top dollar for Serafem…

Response:

> "Generic fluoxetine is not identical to brand name Prozac in appearance. The > generic prescription you pick up at the pharmacy won’t look like brand name > Prozac. Receiving medication with a different color or shape may be > unsettling or cause concern."

This is actually true.  The expensive brands say that ’substitution causes confusion’, and it actually does in my experience.  I’d still prescribe generically, though. > So is the therapeutic effect of prozac due to its color and shape? Is it > just a placebo effect after all?

Placebos can cure 1/3 of people who are cured by antidepressants.

Response:

> Of course the active ingredient is identical. But can’t there be a > difference in the fillers, excipients, etc. used in the tablets, and > couldn’t that make a difference in absorption, etc.?

It could, yes.  That’s why almost all medications must have the same pharmacokinetics to be approved for sale. > With time-released the difference could be greater, no, as there could be a > different method of time-releasing the med to the bloodstream?

Yes, definitely.  Some anti-inflammatories and narcotics are available in such preparations.

Response:

>This is actually true.  The expensive brands say that ’substitution causes >confusion’, and it actually does in my experience. > How much confusion? Difficulty finding the right word? Forgetting > where you live?

I find that many patients – in the order of 40% – cannot name their medications and doses.  And a similar number don’t know what their meds are for. Given this, I doubt very much that these patients are in fact taking their meds properly. Changing the colour and brand name on a packet every time they fill their prescription is just going to make this worse.

Response:

> I find that many patients – in the order of 40% – cannot name their > medications and doses.  And a similar number don’t know what their meds are > for.

That is amazing. If true, quite sad. > Given this, I doubt very much that these patients are in fact taking their > meds properly.

Yes, that could be dangerous. Hard to believe it’s true, though. > Changing the colour and brand name on a packet every time they fill their > prescription is just going to make this worse.

Why would the color change each time? If they are regularly taking the generic equivalent, wouldn’t it be the same each time?

Response:

I have not noticed any difference at all. Jackie Davidson

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> Anyone reading tried both the brand name and generic Prozac? Noticed any > difference? (Question also applies to doctors who have prescribed both, > or > pharmacists who have heard feedback from customers.) > They are identical.  All generic brands must be bioequivalent to the > original.  There are a couple of medications, like morphine, for which > different brands have genuinely different properties, but not fluoxetine > (prozac).

Response:

the requirements on generic also include release time, the fillers may be different but they still have to come close to putting out the same dose at the same time in the same manner, although ive read w/ some meds just that extreemly brief difference could cause problems if your allready conditioned to one or the other for a long term and then try to switch….but this was said to be rare…

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> I have not noticed any difference at all. > Jackie Davidson > > Anyone reading tried both the brand name and generic Prozac? Noticed any > > difference? (Question also applies to doctors who have prescribed both, > or > > pharmacists who have heard feedback from customers.) > They are identical.  All generic brands must be bioequivalent to the > original.  There are a couple of medications, like morphine, for which > different brands have genuinely different properties, but not fluoxetine > (prozac).

Response:

>> I find that many patients – in the order of 40% – cannot name their > medications and doses.  And a similar number don’t know what their meds > are > for. > That is amazing. If true, quite sad.

From my experience, I’d say its a bit lower. Maybe around 20% in my neck of the woods, but still staggeringly high. I sure as hell wouldn’t be popping pills just ‘cuz the doctor said so. > Given this, I doubt very much that these patients are in fact taking > their meds properly. > Yes, that could be dangerous. Hard to believe it’s true, though. > Changing the colour and brand name on a packet every time they fill > their prescription is just going to make this worse. > Why would the color change each time? If they are regularly taking the > generic equivalent, wouldn’t it be the same each time?

Not necessarily. Where I work, the corporation must be constantly reevaluating and renegotiating purchasing contracts. They frequently switch manufacturers for many of the generics, so not only do we confuse the patient when going from brand to generic, but also when the generics used are switched from one manufacturer to another.

Response:

> From my experience, I’d say its a bit lower. Maybe around 20% in my neck > of the woods, but still staggeringly high. I sure as hell wouldn’t be > popping pills just ‘cuz the doctor said so.

Check this – i used to nurse in cardiac surgery.  I guess it`s the age group we typically dealt with but the first question on admission i`d ask all patients was, "Tell me why you think you are here" to check their understanding of what was going on. At least once a week i`d have a patient who honestly didn’t have a clue – "Well, Son," they`d say, "my doctor thought it was best that i came in, i`ve been having trouble you see." Ok, i`d say, so any idea what we are going to do for you? "To get me some more of those tablets, right?" Wrong. One  guy came in for cardiac angiography didn`t have a clue – his doc gave him the appointment, he came in.  Never occured to him to ask, never occured to his doctor to explain.  Strange, strange world. Mind you, we had one lady who asked for one of those big jelly tablets for her constipation.  A suppository? I asked her.  "No, one of those big jelly things in a plastic wrapper." Turns out she`d been swallowing her glycerin suppositories for about 4 years. Apparently, it works quite well that way. Just a ramble. Regards, Andrew Austin. alive in Southampton, UK. — NLP, Neurology, Schizophrenia:  http://www.23NLPeople.com

Response:

says… – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> Of course the active ingredient is identical. But can’t there be a > difference in the fillers, excipients, etc. used in the tablets, and > couldn’t that make a difference in absorption, etc.? > It could, yes.  That’s why almost all medications must have the same > pharmacokinetics to be approved for sale. > With time-released the difference could be greater, no, as there could be > a > different method of time-releasing the med to the bloodstream? > Yes, definitely.  Some anti-inflammatories and narcotics are available in > such preparations.

What does "pharmacokinetics" actually mean in plain English?  I’m asking because I’ve definitely had different reactions to generics and brand name drugs with things other than ADs and I don’t really understand it. For example, one time I had a special fungal cream for a rash.  The DAW was fine and caused no problems.  Then my doctor wrote a prescription without DAW and I got a generic.  Perhaps it was the same active ingredient but the cream was loaded with perfume – it irritated the skin and therefore, the generic cream was not only useless, it was actually making things worse.  Supposedly they were the same thing but even the pharmacist recognized the problem and exchanged it for me. Louise

Response:

> What does "pharmacokinetics" actually mean in plain English?

Doctors differentiate between ‘pharmacokinetics’ and ‘pharmacodynamics’, and it’s a bastardization of the language.  Suffice to say, they’re a description of how a drug interacts with the body.  Specifically, how much of it is absorbed, how fast, how it is eliminated, how fast,whether it has active metabolites, etc. > ingredient but the cream was loaded with perfume – it irritated the skin > and therefore, the generic cream was not only useless, it was actually > making things worse.  Supposedly they were the same thing but even the > pharmacist recognized the problem and exchanged it for me.

When you’re talking about creams and things, it’s likely that companies will branch off and add their own ingredients.  People tend to buy over-the-counter medications on the strength of everything except its pharmacological value.

Response:

I have asked quite a few people taking various meds, what exactly are you taking? Their response was "I don’t know, I just take them cause I need them for my problem" It seems to me that most people are just to lazy to investagate or ask the Doctor what they are taking. They just like the idea of a quick fix to their problem, like the so called majic bullet and go on with their life.

Response:

>Here is what Lilly says about generic prozac on their web site: >"Generic fluoxetine is not identical to brand name Prozac in appearance. The >generic prescription you pick up at the pharmacy won’t look like brand name >Prozac. Receiving medication with a different color or shape may be >unsettling or cause concern."

I remember a hospitalized schizophrenic man who was given generic Thorazine instead of his usual brand name, and then next day he told us he had been given "Thorazine in Spanish" and refused to take anymore.

Response:

>>Here is what Lilly says about generic prozac on their web site: >"Generic fluoxetine is not identical to brand name Prozac in appearance. The >generic prescription you pick up at the pharmacy won’t look like brand name >Prozac. Receiving medication with a different color or shape may be >unsettling or cause concern."

Comment: Not if you look at it first in the bottle it usually comes in.  You’ll notice that Barr has done an *unusually* clever thing with their generic fluoxitine. The Barr product comes in capsules identical in shape to Prozac, but done in blue and light blue. When viewed through the yellow anti-UV of the standard pill bottle, these look EXACTLY like yellow-green brandname Prozac. SBH — I welcome email from any being clever enough to fix my address. It’s open book.  A prize to the first spambot that passes my Turing test. .

Response:

> Of course the active ingredient is identical. But can’t there be a > difference in the fillers, excipients, etc. used in the tablets, and > couldn’t that make a difference in absorption, etc.?

Generic brands must be *bioequivilant* – which means that there should not be a significant difference in absorption, etc. I’ll give you a little example. If you’re prescribed Prozac in Australia you can purchase Lovan, which is a generic brand on the Prozac prescription, providing that the doctor hasn’t checked the "Brand name only" box. There are propoxyphene tablets in Australia under the brand name of "Digesic" which contain 32.5 propox HCl and 325 mg paracetamol (acetaminophen.) The generics, Capadex and Paradex contain the SAME concentration of propoxyphene and paracetamol and yet cannot be purchased on a "digesic" script owing to the fact that the generic preparation is more bioavailable. > With time-released the difference could be greater, no, as there could be a > different method of time-releasing the med to the bloodstream?

With fluoxetine, I don’t believe this is an issue as there is only generic immediate release fluoxetine on the market (where I reside at least). The pharmacokinetics of fluoxetine (ie: its long half life, etc.) also make any difference owing to a change in the speed of absorption pretty irrelevant. -Mike — "Understand that legal and illegal are political, and often arbitrary, categorizations; use and abuse are medical, or clinical, distinctions." — Abbie Hoffman

Response:

> Also, the sarafem web site says nothing about sarafem being equivalent to > prozac. Apparently, they don’t want the sarafem users to know that actually > they are taking an antidepressant!

A short note on: http://www.sarafem.com/can_sarafem.html "Sarafem contains the same active ingredient as Prozac(R)" So the question is – are people (and the prescribing physicians) stupid enough to pay top dollar for a drug where there are generics available for cents a capsule? -Mike — "Understand that legal and illegal are political, and often arbitrary, categorizations; use and abuse are medical, or clinical, distinctions." — Abbie Hoffman

Response:

I had problems immediately with generic Prozac.  I had also been on Celebrex for 1 year and had been doing fine with the combination of Celebrex and brand name Prozac.  As soon as I started generic Prozac, I haddaily problems with nausea.  Cut out the Celebrex and I was OK.  Also, recently, I went into a bad depression.  Doc asked me how long I had been on generic Prozac. I told him several months.  He said to up my dose of generic, from 80 mg. to 100 mg. daily.  (He said, however, the best solution was to go back on brand name Prozac.  I told him there was no way I could do that ($$$).)   I increased the generic Prozac and I’m feeling better.  (Doc had also told me that 1 out of 4 of his patients have had problems with generic Prozac not being as effective as the brand name.) Editor

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> Anyone reading tried both the brand name and generic Prozac? Noticed any > difference? (Question also applies to doctors who have prescribed both, or > pharmacists who have heard feedback from customers.)

Response:

> I had problems immediately with generic Prozac.  I had also been on Celebrex > for 1 year and had been doing fine with the combination of Celebrex and > brand name Prozac.  As soon as I started generic Prozac, I haddaily problems > with nausea.  Cut out the Celebrex and I was OK.

Celebrex has more of a reputation for causing stomach trouble than Prozac. > 100 mg. daily.  (He said, however, the best solution was to go back on brand > name Prozac.  I told him there was no way I could do that ($$$).)   I > increased the generic Prozac and I’m feeling better.  (Doc had also told me > that 1 out of 4 of his patients have had problems with generic Prozac not > being as effective as the brand name.)

I seriously doubt that statistic.  In order for the generic stuff to be licensed, it must be demonstrably identical to Prozac in every chemical property.

Response:

Question:

if i had not been exposed to anti-psych in university , I would have disregarded it as conspiracy theory. when i went to a psych and described very serious social anxiety, he quickly suggested schiz and said i’d be hallucinating in a few years. I knew that i was not schiz because i had no weird thoughts or delusions. I knew it was shyness and lack of confidence. No matter how hard i tried to explain my family background and why i did not fit in socially, he just ignored me. He was not interested in my background at all. I was simply amazed by this. At one point, he said he could not force me to take treatment. I know if this had been the fifties I could have been lobotomized. There is no way psych have a right to force people to take these drugs because there is no evidence that they help. I am all for forcing jehovah witnesses to take blood transfusions or take insulin or whatever because these treatments work. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text ->anti-psychiatry is not scientology related. you have to disavow >scientology to be a member. anti-psychiatry is taught in university by >practicing psychiatrists. the research is bogus re the drugs. there is >no real evidence the drugs help. biological psychiatry is a joke as we >have no idea how the brain works and there is no evidence of a >chemical imbalance for any mental disorder. it is naive to think that >the brain is regulated by one chemical and somehow 60 per cent of the >population has this brain disease or chemical imbalance. psychiatry is >charletism. > Interesting how we can learn something new all the time.  I was > unaware that there was such  a thing as an official "anti > psychiatry"  that is actually taught in the universities. Thanks > for the information. It was only recently that some articles > filled us in as to what a C/S/X er is.  And even more recently > that we tried to figure out what the A of E (axis of evil) was. > And now, it is nice to know what  "anti psychiatry" is. > It is a good idea. to have such as thing taught in the > Universities.  I was beginning to think the Universities were > some sort of school from the dark ages,  rather than something > that might be thought of as anything remotely resembling "higher > learning".  When it came to mental health type of items. Whether > that be psychiatry,  or whether it be MDs acting like they know > something,  when they not only give away the psychotropic  pills > to people who do not suspect that they do not know  what they are > doing. > I can relate to what the editor of the web page wrote when he > said  " It did not take long to see what was happening." . > Though the details were different,  it did not take me very long > to see that there was something wrong with the system,  and on > such a massive scale that it took the internet to help me see > that I was not alone in observing that. > In spite of that, I do not seem  to as of yet be completely "anti > psychiatry". > More like  someone that thinks the C/S/X ers are the ones that > are on the right track.  And  it took one heck of a lot of doing > for the Lioness etc,  to help me see that even they are part of > the A of E , to the extent of being a part of the demand side of > the A of E pull . As  compared to the drug companies, puppet > doctors, shrills, NAMI etc being part of the supply side of the A > of E..  Still thinking about that.   > Here are a few things that I can come up with that might be > something "good" about psychiatry.  Which might help at least > partially balance what I see as quite a bit of harm.  Possibly > you or others  could help  see a way to explain how come my > perceptions of the "good part " of psychiatry might not be right > should they not be.. > Something good? > o    Quite a few people in anxiety – panic gp really seem to like > the SSRIs.   Almost as if the drugs might actually do something > good for some of them at least?. > o   At least some people in the depression gp have spoken up for > the SSRIs over the last year or so?.   > o    It does seem like if someone does get into big difficulty, > o    When it comes to bi polar or schizophrenia, there seem to be > quite a few people who speak up for psychiatry and / or the > drugs.  It seems to me that many of the people with those > symptoms are actually better off because of the doctors rather > than harmed by the doctors? > —- > But some of the worst things: > The entire  idea that people with those symptoms (bi polar or > schizophrenic)  must be forced drugged per the forced drug law > pushing people (NAMI – TAC  etc),  seems to me to have the tragic > potential.  Of  making people take drugs that can keep them from > getting well.. > The forced drugging laws are  propagandized to stir up mobs of > lawmakers  to pass forced drugging laws against the mentally ill, > With their emphasis on one or two murders , or the lack of > insight, the so called must be incompetent if one does not want > drugs  go  way beyond even just  bi polar or schizophrenic > symptom people.  .   But can extend to anything that some doctor > thinks might "needed ": or  "deteriorate"  if drugs are not > forced on them.  Which for most doctors is almost anything and > everything.. > I have been impressed by some of the C/S/X posts such as the ones > from "s" or "gemini" etc.  . Such as how in Countries without > mental health systems,  people can recover from something as > serious as schizophrenic symptoms,.  Even  better than in > countries that have a mental health system.   Or just the amazing > example of how someone that has been on the SSRIs plus other > pills  etc for a decade.  is finally able to get fully better > only by getting off the drugs .  The drugs the doctors gave her > all that time without even  thinking about it.   > And of course the John Nash example is  good.  How he got himself > better without drugs in spite of the propaganda from those that > try to make it look like the so called "modern drugs" did it. > When he hasn’t even had a drug in over 30 years.  . > Most likely they will not force drug the  10 s of millions some > might like. to see happen. > But even it were just a few of the people who are made sick by > the drugs,  were forced to take them, that could have the > dimensions  of an "atrocity"  in my book.  And it most likely > would not be just a few,  but significant numbers. Especially if > one were to try to count the people who might be more easily > coerced into  taking the pills they don’t want because of the > backing of the new laws. > And going beyond the horror of forced drugging, there is so much > emphasis on the drugs,  that it can be difficult to get > alternative treatments.  Especially from the hospitals.  Even > though most will offer things like CBT,  it can be  difficult to > get that without having the drugs shoved down the throat as part > of it..  It is too bad a person can not get hospital help without > being locked up.  And without being drugged so extensively as to > need to be locked up , just to keep from getting lost  should > they be able to somehow manage to make it out. > So, it does seem that there is lots to be "anti psychiatry" > about.   But I still have trouble going that far due to at least > some  "good" which I also seem to be able to see. > Regardless of whether we might be anti psychiatry, or not anti > psychiatry, I can see a lot of good coming out of the web page > site referenced in this thread.  Would like to see it continue > and expand.     With or without the pills, information about > alternative treatments can be helpful.  And with of without the > pills, information as to which doctors push drugs and which don’t > can be useful.   But especially useful for C/S/.X ers that would > like to stay off the drugs if they can, but have trouble finding > a doctor that does not push the drugs. >> >What do u think of this website? >> Not sure what to make of it?   Here are some of my "first >> impressions".  May need to revise some of these impressions after >> more study.. >> The site has some valuable information that I have not seen >> anywhere else such as the list of doctors by the area of the >> country, and a description as to what their drug philosophy is. >> That is something a number of people need. And if the list could >> be added to, it could end up being terrific. >> One item to consider: > snip >> In addition to the list of doctors which I found interesting, I >> also found the letter from the editor interesting.  And would >> like to quote some of the items in the letter from the editor. >> Which I seem to like quite a bit because it depicts some >> situations which hopefully do not happen too often, but do >> happen. And hopefully people could be made more aware of them. >> Be sure to see the entire page for the entire article. >> http://prozactruth.com/conclusion.htm >> " Prozac Truth Letter From the Editor " >>  " Letter From the Editor         >> "  I am not a Medical Doctor, Psychiatrist or a Psychologist. I >> am a researcher who began looking into an area that I felt was >> being abusive to children. It did not take long to see what was >> happening." >> "  Do I have to be a Medical Doctor, Psychiatrist or Psychologist >> to come to correct conclusions regarding SSRI’s and their effects

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Response:

>anti-psychiatry is not scientology related. you have to disavow >scientology to be a member. anti-psychiatry is taught in university by >practicing psychiatrists. the research is bogus re the drugs. there is >no real evidence the drugs help. biological psychiatry is a joke as we >have no idea how the brain works and there is no evidence of a >chemical imbalance for any mental disorder. it is naive to think that >the brain is regulated by one chemical and somehow 60 per cent of the >population has this brain disease or chemical imbalance. psychiatry is >charletism.

Interesting how we can learn something new all the time.  I was unaware that there was such  a thing as an official "anti psychiatry"  that is actually taught in the universities. Thanks for the information. It was only recently that some articles filled us in as to what a C/S/X er is.  And even more recently that we tried to figure out what the A of E (axis of evil) was. And now, it is nice to know what  "anti psychiatry" is. It is a good idea. to have such as thing taught in the Universities.  I was beginning to think the Universities were some sort of school from the dark ages,  rather than something that might be thought of as anything remotely resembling "higher learning".  When it came to mental health type of items. Whether that be psychiatry,  or whether it be MDs acting like they know something,  when they not only give away the psychotropic  pills to people who do not suspect that they do not know  what they are doing. I can relate to what the editor of the web page wrote when he said  " It did not take long to see what was happening." . Though the details were different,  it did not take me very long to see that there was something wrong with the system,  and on such a massive scale that it took the internet to help me see that I was not alone in observing that. In spite of that, I do not seem  to as of yet be completely "anti psychiatry". More like  someone that thinks the C/S/X ers are the ones that are on the right track.  And  it took one heck of a lot of doing for the Lioness etc,  to help me see that even they are part of the A of E , to the extent of being a part of the demand side of the A of E pull . As  compared to the drug companies, puppet doctors, shrills, NAMI etc being part of the supply side of the A of E..  Still thinking about that.   Here are a few things that I can come up with that might be something "good" about psychiatry.  Which might help at least partially balance what I see as quite a bit of harm.  Possibly you or others  could help  see a way to explain how come my perceptions of the "good part " of psychiatry might not be right should they not be.. Something good? o    Quite a few people in anxiety – panic gp really seem to like the SSRIs.   Almost as if the drugs might actually do something good for some of them at least?. o   At least some people in the depression gp have spoken up for the SSRIs over the last year or so?.   o    It does seem like if someone does get into big difficulty, o    When it comes to bi polar or schizophrenia, there seem to be quite a few people who speak up for psychiatry and / or the drugs.  It seems to me that many of the people with those symptoms are actually better off because of the doctors rather than harmed by the doctors? —- But some of the worst things: The entire  idea that people with those symptoms (bi polar or schizophrenic)  must be forced drugged per the forced drug law pushing people (NAMI – TAC  etc),  seems to me to have the tragic potential.  Of  making people take drugs that can keep them from getting well.. The forced drugging laws are  propagandized to stir up mobs of lawmakers  to pass forced drugging laws against the mentally ill, With their emphasis on one or two murders , or the lack of insight, the so called must be incompetent if one does not want drugs  go  way beyond even just  bi polar or schizophrenic symptom people.  .   But can extend to anything that some doctor thinks might "needed ": or  "deteriorate"  if drugs are not forced on them.  Which for most doctors is almost anything and everything.. I have been impressed by some of the C/S/X posts such as the ones from "s" or "gemini" etc.  . Such as how in Countries without mental health systems,  people can recover from something as serious as schizophrenic symptoms,.  Even  better than in countries that have a mental health system.   Or just the amazing example of how someone that has been on the SSRIs plus other pills  etc for a decade.  is finally able to get fully better only by getting off the drugs .  The drugs the doctors gave her all that time without even  thinking about it.   And of course the John Nash example is  good.  How he got himself better without drugs in spite of the propaganda from those that try to make it look like the so called "modern drugs" did it. When he hasn’t even had a drug in over 30 years.  . Most likely they will not force drug the  10 s of millions some might like. to see happen. But even it were just a few of the people who are made sick by the drugs,  were forced to take them, that could have the dimensions  of an "atrocity"  in my book.  And it most likely would not be just a few,  but significant numbers. Especially if one were to try to count the people who might be more easily coerced into  taking the pills they don’t want because of the backing of the new laws. And going beyond the horror of forced drugging, there is so much emphasis on the drugs,  that it can be difficult to get alternative treatments.  Especially from the hospitals.  Even though most will offer things like CBT,  it can be  difficult to get that without having the drugs shoved down the throat as part of it..  It is too bad a person can not get hospital help without being locked up.  And without being drugged so extensively as to need to be locked up , just to keep from getting lost  should they be able to somehow manage to make it out. So, it does seem that there is lots to be "anti psychiatry" about.   But I still have trouble going that far due to at least some  "good" which I also seem to be able to see. Regardless of whether we might be anti psychiatry, or not anti psychiatry, I can see a lot of good coming out of the web page site referenced in this thread.  Would like to see it continue and expand.     With or without the pills, information about alternative treatments can be helpful.  And with of without the pills, information as to which doctors push drugs and which don’t can be useful.   But especially useful for C/S/.X ers that would like to stay off the drugs if they can, but have trouble finding a doctor that does not push the drugs. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> >What do u think of this website? > Not sure what to make of it?   Here are some of my "first > impressions".  May need to revise some of these impressions after > more study.. > The site has some valuable information that I have not seen > anywhere else such as the list of doctors by the area of the > country, and a description as to what their drug philosophy is. > That is something a number of people need. And if the list could > be added to, it could end up being terrific. > One item to consider:

snip – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> In addition to the list of doctors which I found interesting, I > also found the letter from the editor interesting.  And would > like to quote some of the items in the letter from the editor. > Which I seem to like quite a bit because it depicts some > situations which hopefully do not happen too often, but do > happen. And hopefully people could be made more aware of them. > Be sure to see the entire page for the entire article. > http://prozactruth.com/conclusion.htm > " Prozac Truth Letter From the Editor " >  " Letter From the Editor         > "  I am not a Medical Doctor, Psychiatrist or a Psychologist. I > am a researcher who began looking into an area that I felt was > being abusive to children. It did not take long to see what was > happening." > "  Do I have to be a Medical Doctor, Psychiatrist or Psychologist > to come to correct conclusions regarding SSRI’s and their effects > on people and society? I do not think so."

snip Leaving this in because it is a great example. I noticed an article some months back about a person that wanted to know if they could get the nursing home to  put Haldol into their relative,  to keep him from not wanting to go to the nursing home in the first place. The answer to that post fortunately was  not recommended..  Also we might recall just a couple months ago the 76 yr old lady who was in the hospital for physical things, but did not want to talk to the psychiatrist when they tried to get her examined.  And  got herself 10 mg of Haldol  which put her into a coma. .   As the forced laws go into effect, it could become more easy to pump Haldol into people,  and just sort of put them into a semi coma,  without even having to bother pushing them into the hospital – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> "  The cases mentioned above are not rare. Actually, the abuse is > much greater. I was helping an individual get her father out of a > Psychiatric Hospital in 1999 and what I ran into was horrific." > " The man is about 80 years old and was living in a nursing home. > He complained for weeks that his skin was itching everywhere. The > nurses at the home thought he was insane. He was committed for a > 48 hour observation. He called his daughter right away asking for > help. The first evening at the Psychiatric Hospital he was given > Haldol. The

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Response:

anti-psychiatry is not scientology related. you have to disavow scientology to be a member. anti-psychiatry is taught in university by practicing psychiatrists. the research is bogus re the drugs. there is no real evidence the drugs help. biological psychiatry is a joke as we have no idea how the brain works and there is no evidence of a chemical imbalance for any mental disorder. it is naive to think that the brain is regulated by one chemical and somehow 60 per cent of the population has this brain disease or chemical imbalance. psychiatry is charletism. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text ->What do u think of this website? > Not sure what to make of it?   Here are some of my "first > impressions".  May need to revise some of these impressions after > more study.. > The site has some valuable information that I have not seen > anywhere else such as the list of doctors by the area of the > country, and a description as to what their drug philosophy is. > That is something a number of people need. And if the list could > be added to, it could end up being terrific. > One item to consider: > Although we have discussed many times how this or that might be a > "scientologist"  etc,  almost every time it is not.  But rather a > propaganda attempt to try to divert attention from any article > that might not be favorable to drugs.  Fortunately this tactic > has mostly disappeared over the last year.  The impression I get > in reading this site is that it "might be"  a scientologist site. > That comes from a combination of adding in religious type > messages and reference to a scientology site etc.  Do not see any > problem with either, but it does raise  the question and might > turn some people away from some good information. > Another item to consider: > The information on vitamins appears to be almost like an > advertisement etc.    Should that be a major purpose of the site, > it would be good if that was owned up to up front.   If it is not > one of the major purposes, then it could help if the vitamin page > were developed in a fashion as to provide useful and unbiased > information on that.  Once there are "sales " involved, then > objectivity is not as well guaranteed. > In addition to the list of doctors which I found interesting, I > also found the letter from the editor interesting.  And would > like to quote some of the items in the letter from the editor. > Which I seem to like quite a bit because it depicts some > situations which hopefully do not happen too often, but do > happen. And hopefully people could be made more aware of them. > Be sure to see the entire page for the entire article. > http://prozactruth.com/conclusion.htm > " Prozac Truth Letter From the Editor " >  " Letter From the Editor         > "  I am not a Medical Doctor, Psychiatrist or a Psychologist. I > am a researcher who began looking into an area that I felt was > being abusive to children. It did not take long to see what was > happening." > "  Do I have to be a Medical Doctor, Psychiatrist or Psychologist > to come to correct conclusions regarding SSRI’s and their effects > on people and society? I do not think so." > snip > "    This Web Site and the data that is included, is in no way > meant to belittle or imply that depression or other symptoms do > not exist. The treatment of symptoms is the issue. The same holds > true for Attention Deficit Disorder." > "   These medications are being given to individuals > indiscriminately. Women are being prescribed Prozac (Sarafem) to > treat PMS without even being told it is Prozac. Parents are being > forced to allow their children to be medicated or the state will > put them in foster care. Who would think that in the United > States of America, we would be told "put your child on Ritalin or > we will take the child away from you." This is not only happening > in the poverty areas, it is happening more often in suburbia.  " > Comment: > We have seen a few of these right here on the internet.  It has > been pointed out a number of times that in addition to forcing > people to have their children drugged by threats of taking them > away, there are situations where the threat is made if the parent > does not take the drugs. About as strong a coercion as one might > find. > "  The cases mentioned above are not rare. Actually, the abuse is > much greater. I was helping an individual get her father out of a > Psychiatric Hospital in 1999 and what I ran into was horrific." > " The man is about 80 years old and was living in a nursing home. > He complained for weeks that his skin was itching everywhere. The > nurses at the home thought he was insane. He was committed for a > 48 hour observation. He called his daughter right away asking for > help. The first evening at the Psychiatric Hospital he was given > Haldol. The next day I was talking to him on the telephone when > the nurse approached him and forced him to receive a shot of > Haldol once again. The man was not angry or resistive in any way. > He explained everything that was happening to him at that moment. > The Haldol took effect instantly. His speech began to slur and > this man was so insane he told me, "I am getting sleepy now. I > guess I will go lay down and take advantage of this and catch up > on my sleep." Does that sound like the response of an insane man > to you?  " > "    It took 4 people at the hearing to get him out of the > hospital. The Psychiatrist were still insisting he was a threat > to himself and to others. By the time the hearing was over, the > Psychiatrist gave up their fight and began backpedaling very > quickly. We did have to sign a statement that we would not file a > law suit against the hospital or the individual Psychiatrist in > order to get him out quickly." > "    What was the final outcome? We had him see a competent > Medical Doctor and it was determined, he was allergic to the > carpet fibers in his bedroom. The nursing home had just changed > all of the carpeting a few days before his complaints started. > This died December 2001. I was able to see him live the few > remaining years in comfort, enjoying the things in life he had > cherished for many years. " > snip > Comment:   > We should note that many people who do not even have mental > symptoms are going to end up in nursing homes sometimes before > they die.  The ability of nursing homes to try to drug people is > a concern , especially as the forced drugging laws continue to > get passed.   >  In one set of laws that are being proposed, the nursing home has > standing to obtain outpatient forced drugging commitment.   With > that kind of a law behind them, it would make it a lot easier for > them to Haldolize people,  just by being able to make threats of > involuntary commitment if they do not take the drugs.  The easier > it gets to force drug or commit (or both) people, the more > vigilance will be needed to watch out for the type of thing > mentioned here in the letter to the editor. > snip > "   If drugs are not the answer, what is? Greater minds than mine > have been searching for these answers for thousands of years. " > "   What has worked for some people?" > Religion > Meditation > Family > A change of diet > Their own self-determinism > Time > Natural Alternatives > snip > "     What to believe? If we can be our own worst enemy then we > can also be our own best friend. Start believing in yourself. If > you are currently using psychiatric medication and you want to > quit, research and do more research. Write down what plan you > will use to get yourself off the medication. It will be up to you > to make this happen. " > snip > "Sincerely, > Jim Harper" > More comments: > I think it is a good thing to provided information about > alternatives etc.  That type of information seems to get > suppressed , or at least not mentioned when seeing doctors etc. > Though the stance against the drugs is much more severe than my > own opinions might be, there should some value to a variety of > sites. > Some of which might be of the Dr Breggin variety .  Which could > include not only the against drugs flavor as Dr Breggin provides > but also the alternative treatments which are provided here . > (Dr Brggin is not a scientolgist btw for any that might not > know). > And those that could favor alternatives treatments but are not > against the drugs as many of the sites are such as the > mindfreedom organization which mostly about being against  forced > drugging.  Dr Burns could fit this category since although he has > spent a lot of time developing self managed CBT etc in his books, > he also is quite willing to use drugs. > And there are sites which are at the far extreme which not only > favor the drugs, but want to get laws passed to try to cram them > down anyone that any doctors seems to think "needs" some drugs. > There should be room for all of the different type of sites on > the internet including this site. Even if it is much harder or > the drugs and the doctors than even some of the most I’m from > Missouri, or doubting Thomas  that post to the net. >  And I would like it quite a bit if the doctor’s list was > expanded.  Be sure to keep the drug philosophy part.  And would > be great if some sort of "pushiness" factor could be included so > that some who do not like pushy doctors could avoid them.  I > doubt that all the pushy doctors will admit to that. So the > phrase might be more along the lines of whether or not the doctor > sees his/her role as an advisor, or as some sort of a try to make > the patient do

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Response:

What do u think of this website?

Response:

has there ever actually been a death that was directly linked to one of the ADs mentioned on this site?  

Response:

> has there ever actually been a death that was directly linked to one of the > ADs mentioned on this site?

only murders and suicides.

Response:

> What do u think of this website?

Something has happened to it – it is not the same anymore; — "Your manuscript is both good and original, but the part that is good is not original and the part that is original is not good."                                         – Samuel Johnson

Response:

>> has there ever actually been a death that was directly linked to one > of the ADs mentioned on this site? > only murders and suicides.

That could be attributed solely (or almost solely) to an AD?  

Response:

>What do u think of this website?

Not sure what to make of it?   Here are some of my "first impressions".  May need to revise some of these impressions after more study.. The site has some valuable information that I have not seen anywhere else such as the list of doctors by the area of the country, and a description as to what their drug philosophy is. That is something a number of people need. And if the list could be added to, it could end up being terrific. One item to consider: Although we have discussed many times how this or that might be a "scientologist"  etc,  almost every time it is not.  But rather a propaganda attempt to try to divert attention from any article that might not be favorable to drugs.  Fortunately this tactic has mostly disappeared over the last year.  The impression I get in reading this site is that it "might be"  a scientologist site. That comes from a combination of adding in religious type messages and reference to a scientology site etc.  Do not see any problem with either, but it does raise  the question and might turn some people away from some good information. Another item to consider: The information on vitamins appears to be almost like an advertisement etc.    Should that be a major purpose of the site, it would be good if that was owned up to up front.   If it is not one of the major purposes, then it could help if the vitamin page were developed in a fashion as to provide useful and unbiased information on that.  Once there are "sales " involved, then objectivity is not as well guaranteed. In addition to the list of doctors which I found interesting, I also found the letter from the editor interesting.  And would like to quote some of the items in the letter from the editor. Which I seem to like quite a bit because it depicts some situations which hopefully do not happen too often, but do happen. And hopefully people could be made more aware of them. Be sure to see the entire page for the entire article. http://prozactruth.com/conclusion.htm " Prozac Truth Letter From the Editor "  " Letter From the Editor         "  I am not a Medical Doctor, Psychiatrist or a Psychologist. I am a researcher who began looking into an area that I felt was being abusive to children. It did not take long to see what was happening." "  Do I have to be a Medical Doctor, Psychiatrist or Psychologist to come to correct conclusions regarding SSRI’s and their effects on people and society? I do not think so." snip "    This Web Site and the data that is included, is in no way meant to belittle or imply that depression or other symptoms do not exist. The treatment of symptoms is the issue. The same holds true for Attention Deficit Disorder." "   These medications are being given to individuals indiscriminately. Women are being prescribed Prozac (Sarafem) to treat PMS without even being told it is Prozac. Parents are being forced to allow their children to be medicated or the state will put them in foster care. Who would think that in the United States of America, we would be told "put your child on Ritalin or we will take the child away from you." This is not only happening in the poverty areas, it is happening more often in suburbia.  " Comment: We have seen a few of these right here on the internet.  It has been pointed out a number of times that in addition to forcing people to have their children drugged by threats of taking them away, there are situations where the threat is made if the parent does not take the drugs. About as strong a coercion as one might find. "  The cases mentioned above are not rare. Actually, the abuse is much greater. I was helping an individual get her father out of a Psychiatric Hospital in 1999 and what I ran into was horrific." " The man is about 80 years old and was living in a nursing home. He complained for weeks that his skin was itching everywhere. The nurses at the home thought he was insane. He was committed for a 48 hour observation. He called his daughter right away asking for help. The first evening at the Psychiatric Hospital he was given Haldol. The next day I was talking to him on the telephone when the nurse approached him and forced him to receive a shot of Haldol once again. The man was not angry or resistive in any way. He explained everything that was happening to him at that moment. The Haldol took effect instantly. His speech began to slur and this man was so insane he told me, "I am getting sleepy now. I guess I will go lay down and take advantage of this and catch up on my sleep." Does that sound like the response of an insane man to you?  " "    It took 4 people at the hearing to get him out of the hospital. The Psychiatrist were still insisting he was a threat to himself and to others. By the time the hearing was over, the Psychiatrist gave up their fight and began backpedaling very quickly. We did have to sign a statement that we would not file a law suit against the hospital or the individual Psychiatrist in order to get him out quickly." "    What was the final outcome? We had him see a competent Medical Doctor and it was determined, he was allergic to the carpet fibers in his bedroom. The nursing home had just changed all of the carpeting a few days before his complaints started. This died December 2001. I was able to see him live the few remaining years in comfort, enjoying the things in life he had cherished for many years. " snip Comment:   We should note that many people who do not even have mental symptoms are going to end up in nursing homes sometimes before they die.  The ability of nursing homes to try to drug people is a concern , especially as the forced drugging laws continue to get passed.    In one set of laws that are being proposed, the nursing home has standing to obtain outpatient forced drugging commitment.   With that kind of a law behind them, it would make it a lot easier for them to Haldolize people,  just by being able to make threats of involuntary commitment if they do not take the drugs.  The easier it gets to force drug or commit (or both) people, the more vigilance will be needed to watch out for the type of thing mentioned here in the letter to the editor. snip "   If drugs are not the answer, what is? Greater minds than mine have been searching for these answers for thousands of years. " "   What has worked for some people?" Religion Meditation Family A change of diet Their own self-determinism Time Natural Alternatives snip "     What to believe? If we can be our own worst enemy then we can also be our own best friend. Start believing in yourself. If you are currently using psychiatric medication and you want to quit, research and do more research. Write down what plan you will use to get yourself off the medication. It will be up to you to make this happen. " snip "Sincerely, Jim Harper" More comments: I think it is a good thing to provided information about alternatives etc.  That type of information seems to get suppressed , or at least not mentioned when seeing doctors etc. Though the stance against the drugs is much more severe than my own opinions might be, there should some value to a variety of sites. Some of which might be of the Dr Breggin variety .  Which could include not only the against drugs flavor as Dr Breggin provides but also the alternative treatments which are provided here . (Dr Brggin is not a scientolgist btw for any that might not know). And those that could favor alternatives treatments but are not against the drugs as many of the sites are such as the mindfreedom organization which mostly about being against  forced drugging.  Dr Burns could fit this category since although he has spent a lot of time developing self managed CBT etc in his books, he also is quite willing to use drugs. And there are sites which are at the far extreme which not only favor the drugs, but want to get laws passed to try to cram them down anyone that any doctors seems to think "needs" some drugs. There should be room for all of the different type of sites on the internet including this site. Even if it is much harder or the drugs and the doctors than even some of the most I’m from Missouri, or doubting Thomas  that post to the net.  And I would like it quite a bit if the doctor’s list was expanded.  Be sure to keep the drug philosophy part.  And would be great if some sort of "pushiness" factor could be included so that some who do not like pushy doctors could avoid them.  I doubt that all the pushy doctors will admit to that. So the phrase might be more along the lines of whether or not the doctor sees his/her role as an advisor, or as some sort of a try to make the patient do things type of doctor.. (Empowerment vs Slavery). The question about whether or not the doctor will help the person off of drugs is a good one and sort of takes care of this in part. It could help to clarify the  status of  a few things such as the vitamin advertisement.   If this is all about advertising products along with some potentially useful information, it would be better to be up front about that.  . If it is about useful information, with some advertisement etc, that too would be worth knowing about up front.,. And the  scientology  thing could use some clearing up. Whether or not just  against drugs etc  per bad experiences, or whether or not there is a scientology component to this. .  On the one hand, facts should be facts, but on the other hand there is something about scientology that really turns people off.  And thereby potentially deprive them of some of the good parts of the information.

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Question:

Hello, My wife has been taking 150 mg of Effexor SR, and 200 mg of Zoloft a day, with uneven results, for the last 2 years. In part due to cost, and in part because the combination is heavy-handed, and uneven in action, including bouts of anger, it seems plausible to try switching over to longer-acting and cheaper Prozac, perhaps replacing both Zoloft and Effexor, perhaps starting by replacing one. The physician in this case is going along with whatever we decide. Does anyone have any experience with this, namely what equipotent dosages really would be, how best to make the transition, and so forth. At the moment she has been taking the same 150 mg of Effexor, one 100 mg Zoloft instead of two, and one 20 mg Prozac for about a week, but she has been feeling more down, it seems that 40 mg (and not 20 mg) of Prozac is about right to replace the missing 100 mg of Zoloft, so we will be trying that for a few days. Any thoughts and experiences would be much appreciated. Thanks, Fernand

Response:

Get another Doc, sounds like he/she doesn’t really know what to perscribe. A shrink with expeience will have a better understanding of your wifes problem. But in the end, it’s still trial and error method, cause everybody reacts differently to different meds. good luck.

Response:

Are you seeing a shrink or a MD? — John T. May Experience is what you get when you don’t get what you want.

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> Hello, > My wife has been taking 150 mg of Effexor SR, and 200 mg of Zoloft a day, > with uneven results, for the last 2 years. In part due to cost, and in part > because the combination is heavy-handed, and uneven in action, including > bouts of anger, it seems plausible to try switching over to longer-acting > and cheaper Prozac, perhaps replacing both Zoloft and Effexor, perhaps > starting by replacing one. The physician in this case is going along with > whatever we decide. > Does anyone have any experience with this, namely what equipotent dosages > really would be, how best to make the transition, and so forth. At the > moment she has been taking the same 150 mg of Effexor, one 100 mg Zoloft > instead of two, and one 20 mg Prozac for about a week, but she has been > feeling more down, it seems that 40 mg (and not 20 mg) of Prozac is about > right to replace the missing 100 mg of Zoloft, so we will be trying that for > a few days. > Any thoughts and experiences would be much appreciated. > Thanks, > Fernand

Response:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – >Hello, >My wife has been taking 150 mg of Effexor SR, and 200 mg of Zoloft a day, >with uneven results, for the last 2 years. In part due to cost, and in part >because the combination is heavy-handed, and uneven in action, including >bouts of anger, it seems plausible to try switching over to longer-acting >and cheaper Prozac, perhaps replacing both Zoloft and Effexor, perhaps >starting by replacing one. The physician in this case is going along with >whatever we decide. >Does anyone have any experience with this, namely what equipotent dosages >really would be, how best to make the transition, and so forth. At the >moment she has been taking the same 150 mg of Effexor, one 100 mg Zoloft >instead of two, and one 20 mg Prozac for about a week, but she has been >feeling more down, it seems that 40 mg (and not 20 mg) of Prozac is about >right to replace the missing 100 mg of Zoloft, so we will be trying that for >a few days. >Any thoughts and experiences would be much appreciated. >Thanks, >Fernand

As far as dosage, there really isn’t any conversion IME as to what equals what. It’s really based on reaction to the med which really varies from person to person. I don’t hold myself out as a medical professional, but I wonder why a doctor has 3 different antidepressants in her system at once, frankly, even two. Right now, with three different antidepressants, 2 acting on serotonin and on mainly acting on norephinephrine I don’t see how anyone would be able to sort out what antidepressant in this combo is causing which effect to happen. It’s not unheard of to be on more than one antidepressant, but to _me_, it complicates things. I assume she was put on 2 because either the Effexor wasn’t doing the job completely or just quit. If it were me, I would prefer to be switched just to one med, so if it stopped working I wouldn’t have to guess as to what is doing what. As much as we know about the brain, we have no clue as to what happens to emotions when you start dealing with med combos. It may be why you are getting the "heavy-handed, and uneven in action" you describe. In fact, if you go to the pharmacy and ask for the prescribing information attached to the bottle and can make it through all the fine print, you’ll see that agitation or anger that your wife is experience listed as a reported side effect of the medication (not common but it happens) – so it’s not implausible that one med is causing it, let alone a combo of three. It could also be the depression, but you are still just left to guesswork. I’m only speaking as someone who has been on and off of antidepressants and combinations for over 20 years, so take it for what it’s worth. Feel free to discard it. These meds can do strange things, especially in combos. While we know what goes on in our head better than the doctors and I have always played an active role in picking new meds, frankly, I would be a bit scared if my doctor told me he’d approve whatever I chose and whatever dosage I wanted and left me to do the research. I would consider going to another psychiatrist for just one or two visits while still keeping your current doctor. Explain the situation and just tell them you want a second opinion. That’s how I got the doc I have today. He saw some things, recommended some changes, and I started feeling so good I kept him. Anyway, enough blabbing. The bottom line is getting your wife to feel better, and whatever path you choose to take to successfully get there no one can complain about. My best to your wife, and you as well. Roy

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Thanks, Roy, The Effexor was added when Zolotf alone became insufficient. The combination works not too badly. It would be nice if a single med worked, especially one with a longer duration of action, a more benign withdrawal, and lower cost. Hence the concept that maybe Prozac alone would be a reasonable try. But because of the (very slow) curve of Prozac, the move through a gradual substitution seems reasonable. I think we’re fortunate in having a little more control than those patients who have no say in their meds, and who consider that a blessing. With indirect acting meds like SSRIs, where the effects take time to develop, where the underlying state of the patient plays such a huge role, and where the physician has no meaningful personal experience (unlike for instance with sedatives, where the physician should clearly know from personal experience e.g. the subjective difference between a benzodiazepine and an antipsychotic), realistically we’re on our own anyway, assessing what works better, which side-effects are most annoying, etc. There are no hard and fast rules, and there are no ultimate experts or authorities. The standard info is there in the PDR, the literature and the textbooks. But many of the people in support groups have developed an invaluable body of personal experience above and beyond that, and this is what I was asking. Thanks for your input, Fernand

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – >Hello, >My wife has been taking 150 mg of Effexor SR, and 200 mg of Zoloft a day, >with uneven results, for the last 2 years. In part due to cost, and in part >because the combination is heavy-handed, and uneven in action, including >bouts of anger, it seems plausible to try switching over to longer-acting >and cheaper Prozac, perhaps replacing both Zoloft and Effexor, perhaps >starting by replacing one. The physician in this case is going along with >whatever we decide. >Does anyone have any experience with this, namely what equipotent dosages >really would be, how best to make the transition, and so forth. At the >moment she has been taking the same 150 mg of Effexor, one 100 mg Zoloft >instead of two, and one 20 mg Prozac for about a week, but she has been >feeling more down, it seems that 40 mg (and not 20 mg) of Prozac is about >right to replace the missing 100 mg of Zoloft, so we will be trying that for >a few days. >Any thoughts and experiences would be much appreciated. >Thanks, >Fernand

As far as dosage, there really isn’t any conversion IME as to what equals what. It’s really based on reaction to the med which really varies from person to person. I don’t hold myself out as a medical professional, but I wonder why a doctor has 3 different antidepressants in her system at once, frankly, even two. Right now, with three different antidepressants, 2 acting on serotonin and on mainly acting on norephinephrine I don’t see how anyone would be able to sort out what antidepressant in this combo is causing which effect to happen. It’s not unheard of to be on more than one antidepressant, but to _me_, it complicates things. I assume she was put on 2 because either the Effexor wasn’t doing the job completely or just quit. If it were me, I would prefer to be switched just to one med, so if it stopped working I wouldn’t have to guess as to what is doing what. As much as we know about the brain, we have no clue as to what happens to emotions when you start dealing with med combos. It may be why you are getting the "heavy-handed, and uneven in action" you describe. In fact, if you go to the pharmacy and ask for the prescribing information attached to the bottle and can make it through all the fine print, you’ll see that agitation or anger that your wife is experience listed as a reported side effect of the medication (not common but it happens) – so it’s not implausible that one med is causing it, let alone a combo of three. It could also be the depression, but you are still just left to guesswork. I’m only speaking as someone who has been on and off of antidepressants and combinations for over 20 years, so take it for what it’s worth. Feel free to discard it. These meds can do strange things, especially in combos. While we know what goes on in our head better than the doctors and I have always played an active role in picking new meds, frankly, I would be a bit scared if my doctor told me he’d approve whatever I chose and whatever dosage I wanted and left me to do the research. I would consider going to another psychiatrist for just one or two visits while still keeping your current doctor. Explain the situation and just tell them you want a second opinion. That’s how I got the doc I have today. He saw some things, recommended some changes, and I started feeling so good I kept him. Anyway, enough blabbing. The bottom line is getting your wife to feel better, and whatever path you choose to take to successfully get there no one can complain about. My best to your wife, and you as well. Roy

Response:

I know one thing, ZOLOFT turned me into a hair triggered bad tempered maniac, I was terrible, snappy all the time and felt that angry inside it was like frustration, My doc changed me to Prozac and within two weeks my temper was back to normal. take care

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> Hello, > My wife has been taking 150 mg of Effexor SR, and 200 mg of Zoloft a day, > with uneven results, for the last 2 years. In part due to cost, and in part > because the combination is heavy-handed, and uneven in action, including > bouts of anger, it seems plausible to try switching over to longer-acting > and cheaper Prozac, perhaps replacing both Zoloft and Effexor, perhaps > starting by replacing one. The physician in this case is going along with > whatever we decide. > Does anyone have any experience with this, namely what equipotent dosages > really would be, how best to make the transition, and so forth. At the > moment she has been taking the same 150 mg of Effexor, one 100 mg Zoloft > instead of two, and one 20 mg Prozac for about a week, but she has been > feeling more down, it seems that 40 mg (and not 20 mg) of Prozac is about > right to replace the missing 100 mg of Zoloft, so we will be trying that for > a few days. > Any thoughts and experiences would be much appreciated. > Thanks, > Fernand

Response:

Thanks for your feedback, actually it seems that as she slowly tapers off the Zoloft and Effexor over to Prozac, my wife is showing less of that hair-trigger anger, and ALSO feeling less gloomy. It was interesting to read some studies that suggested that Prozac worked better than zoloft on people with emotional swings. It is often the case that the older meds, which are no longer on exclusive brand name patent, are discarded by physicians under sales pressure from the pharm companies, but that in fact the old original, that all the imitations were created after, is still the better one. Generic Prozac is enormously less profitable than the newer ones. Pharmacologically, unless there is a specific reason, it is fair to say that the old and inexpensive one should be tried first. I’m not suggesting that for instance an old tricyclic or MAO inhibitor be used in place of a SSRI. But within the SSRI class, the older compound, in this case Prozac, with more mileage and test results, should not be passed by just because there is a shiny new one that is better-marketed. In her case there was a brief trial of Prozac as I recall, but we know now that it’s a very very slowly acting drug, so a couple of weeks for instance is quite inadequate as a trial period. In our case, if the results continue as they have so far, it would suggest that we could have saved a lot of money and grief sooner. Fernand

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> I know one thing, ZOLOFT turned me into a hair triggered bad tempered > maniac, I was terrible, snappy all the time and felt that angry inside it > was like frustration, My doc changed me to Prozac and within two weeks my > temper was back to normal. > take care > Hello, > My wife has been taking 150 mg of Effexor SR, and 200 mg of Zoloft a day, > with uneven results, for the last 2 years. In part due to cost, and in > part > because the combination is heavy-handed, and uneven in action, including > bouts of anger, it seems plausible to try switching over to longer-acting > and cheaper Prozac, perhaps replacing both Zoloft and Effexor, perhaps > starting by replacing one. The physician in this case is going along with > whatever we decide. > Does anyone have any experience with this, namely what equipotent dosages > really would be, how best to make the transition, and so forth. At the > moment she has been taking the same 150 mg of Effexor, one 100 mg Zoloft > instead of two, and one 20 mg Prozac for about a week, but she has been > feeling more down, it seems that 40 mg (and not 20 mg) of Prozac is about > right to replace the missing 100 mg of Zoloft, so we will be trying that > for > a few days. > Any thoughts and experiences would be much appreciated. > Thanks, > Fernand

Response:

Question:

Myself, I find Prozac makes me lose weight, while I was on Lustral (Zoloft) I gained 2 stone. take care

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> I am new to this newsgroup and needing some advice.  I’ve just been > prescribed prozac for the first time in my life and am wondering about > the potential side effects, particularly weight gain. > Some people report weight gain on Prozac, but it seems the most common > side effect is weight *loss*. Just like some people report feeling sleepy > on Prozac, while for most people it seems to reduce sleep. > I’ve just spent > months in the gym trying to get the weight off from being on > prednisolone for Crohn’s Disease and I really don’t want to start taking > something that is just going to put it all back on after all my hard > work. I’ve read conflicting reports about Prozac and weight gain and was > wondering what people’s personal experiences were. > For me it did’nt do much, as far as I remember, it might have suppressed > my appetite somewhat. I know people who take it and they all have > experienced weight loss. > Now, from what I understand, if your depression makes it so you eat more, > then taking Prozac will make you eat less. If depression makes you eat > less, then expect the opposite. That’s just a guess.

Response:

Changes in weight during a 1-year trial of fluoxetine by Michelson D, Amsterdam JD, Quitkin FM, Reimherr FW, Rosenbaum JF, Zajecka J, Sundell KL, Kim Y, Beasley CM Jr Lilly Research Laboratories, Eli Lilly and Company, Indianapolis, IN 46285, USA. Am J Psychiatry 1999 Aug; 156(8):1170-6 ABSTRACT OBJECTIVE: Fluoxetine has been associated with weight loss during acute treatment, but no controlled studies of weight change during long-term treatment with fluoxetine or other selective serotonin reuptake inhibitors have been reported. Weights were assessed for patients whose depressive symptoms had disappeared with acute fluoxetine treatment. Patients were then randomly assigned to continuation treatment with fluoxetine or placebo. METHOD: Patients whose illness had remitted after 12 weeks of treatment with fluoxetine, 20 mg/day, were randomly assigned to receive up to 38 weeks of treatment with fluoxetine or placebo. Weight was assessed at each visit. Change in weight was analyzed during the initial 12 weeks of acute treatment and after 14, 26, and 38 weeks. Relationships between weight change and body mass index and between weight change and appetite change were assessed. RESULTS: During the initial 4 weeks of therapy, a mean absolute weight decrease of 0.4 kg was observed for all patients. Among patients who completed 50 weeks of therapy, the mean absolute weight increase during continuation treatment was similar for both the placebo- and fluoxetine-treated groups. Weight increase was not related to initial body mass index but was related to both poor appetite at study entry and to improvement in appetite after recovery. No patients discontinued therapy because of weight gain. CONCLUSIONS: Acute therapy with fluoxetine is associated with modest weight loss. After remission of depressive symptoms, weight gain for patients taking fluoxetine for longer periods is not different from that for patients taking placebo and is most likely related to recovery from depression. Prohibition Funds Terrorism

Response:

hey-   i’ve been on prozac off and on for 3 years. everytime i go on, i completely lose my appettite. i have HUGE problems with not even thinking about eating and losing so much weight!!! not healthy at all!! if u have an increased appettite just tell your doctor IMMEDIATELY. u don’t have to be taking it if it does that to you   Hope this helps!! -Katie

Response:

Hi all, I am new to this newsgroup and needing some advice.  I’ve just been prescribed prozac for the first time in my life and am wondering about the potential side effects, particularly weight gain.  I’ve just spent months in the gym trying to get the weight off from being on prednisolone for Crohn’s Disease and I really don’t want to start taking something that is just going to put it all back on after all my hard work. I’ve read conflicting reports about Prozac and weight gain and was wondering what people’s personal experiences were. Thanks Karen

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Question:

I read up on this.   Most likely nothing bad will happen, since your already tappering your SSRI, you won’t have enough drug in your system to interact dangerously.  I’ve seen a study where they combine a SSRI with 5-HTP(tryptophan) and nothing bad was reported.  Same study with st. johns wort and Kava.

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> I was taking 40mg of celexa per day and I have weaned myself down to > 20mg. I have felt better, personally, I think 60mg would be a better > dose. > Anyway, in an attempt to "go natural"  and avoid the side effects of > SSRIS, > I have obtained some 500mg tryptophan tablets. Only 50. > Anyway, can I add tryptophan while reducing Celexa or will I die a > horrible death ? LOL > What tryptophan dosage would most resemble 40mg of celexa ? > Any help would be appreciated. > Thanks

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- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – > Dear Never Mind, > I think everyone’s experience can be very different. > I withdrew from celexa, slowly in two week increments. > 20mg / 10mg / 5mgs  by cutting the tablets into halves > than quarters.  But your question about tryptophan > I can answer, I suggest you contact your doctor or > pharmacist. > Take care of yourself, > Julie > I was taking 40mg of celexa per day and I have weaned myself down to > 20mg. I have felt better, personally, I think 60mg would be a better > dose. > Anyway, in an attempt to "go natural"  and avoid the side effects of > SSRIS, > I have obtained some 500mg tryptophan tablets. Only 50. > Anyway, can I add tryptophan while reducing Celexa or will I die a > horrible death ? LOL > What tryptophan dosage would most resemble 40mg of celexa ? > Any help would be appreciated. > Thanks

My Dr wouldnt know ANYTHING about tryptophan.

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I was taking 40mg of celexa per day and I have weaned myself down to 20mg. I have felt better, personally, I think 60mg would be a better dose. Anyway, in an attempt to "go natural"  and avoid the side effects of SSRIS, I have obtained some 500mg tryptophan tablets. Only 50. Anyway, can I add tryptophan while reducing Celexa or will I die a horrible death ? LOL What tryptophan dosage would most resemble 40mg of celexa ? Any help would be appreciated. Thanks

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Does anyone have any comments or is this board just a wasteland of spam ?

Response:

Dear Never Mind, I think everyone’s experience can be very different. I withdrew from celexa, slowly in two week increments. 20mg / 10mg / 5mgs  by cutting the tablets into halves than quarters.  But your question about tryptophan I can answer, I suggest you contact your doctor or pharmacist. Take care of yourself, Julie – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – > I was taking 40mg of celexa per day and I have weaned myself down to > 20mg. I have felt better, personally, I think 60mg would be a better > dose. > Anyway, in an attempt to "go natural"  and avoid the side effects of > SSRIS, > I have obtained some 500mg tryptophan tablets. Only 50. > Anyway, can I add tryptophan while reducing Celexa or will I die a > horrible death ? LOL > What tryptophan dosage would most resemble 40mg of celexa ? > Any help would be appreciated. > Thanks

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